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With Atheism there is no Objective Morality[W:86]

phattonez

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I know plenty of atheists who would agree with the statement, but I'm sure that many would disagree as well. For myself, I also stand by the point that there can be no objective morality with atheism. What are your thoughts, especially if you are an atheist? Further, how do you deal with the clearly damaging ends of a lack of objective morality, such as the idea that murder of innocents is not inherently wrong?
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

I know plenty of atheists who would agree with the statement, but I'm sure that many would disagree as well. For myself, I also stand by the point that there can be no objective morality with atheism. What are your thoughts, especially if you are an atheist? Further, how do you deal with the clearly damaging ends of a lack of objective morality, such as the idea that murder of innocents is not inherently wrong?

There is no objective morality without atheism, all morality is subjective.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

With theistic religion there is no objective morality, either. There is simply "might makes right" and a king with the biggest stick.

As it turns out, our morality is mostly biological, and the result of our evolution. Our cooperative nature came about through our survival as a species. No magic required. And let's be honest, when was the last time that a religion had problems murdering innocent people?
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

I know plenty of atheists who would agree with the statement, but I'm sure that many would disagree as well. For myself, I also stand by the point that there can be no objective morality with atheism. What are your thoughts, especially if you are an atheist? Further, how do you deal with the clearly damaging ends of a lack of objective morality, such as the idea that murder of innocents is not inherently wrong?

There is no objective morality ANYWHERE, to include the pews of your church. If there was one objective truth to theism you wouldn't have the world religions trying to kill each other. If there was an objective truth to christianity there wouldn't be a million sects. If there were objective truth in your denomination, you wouldn't need a pastor to interpret the bible to you, it would be an objective 100% given interpretation we can all agree on.

There is absolutely nothing on the planet that is 100% black and white, so let's not act like atheists are doing something new here by making it up as they go along. My moral code says it's ALWAYS wrong to murder someone, while your bible says murder is what god sometime wants.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

I agree with many of the responses I've read thus far.

Objective morality is a made up concept. And I don't understand why saying "well you can't prove that it's immoral to murder" should bother me at all. As long as we as a society are working with the concept that it's immoral I don't care if it's "objective" or not. And if we could show that it was "objectively immoral" that still wouldn't stop people from doing it.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

There is no objective morality ANYWHERE, to include the pews of your church. If there was one objective truth to theism you wouldn't have the world religions trying to kill each other. If there was an objective truth to christianity there wouldn't be a million sects. If there were objective truth in your denomination, you wouldn't need a pastor to interpret the bible to you, it would be an objective 100% given interpretation we can all agree on.

There is absolutely nothing on the planet that is 100% black and white, so let's not act like atheists are doing something new here by making it up as they go along. My moral code says it's ALWAYS wrong to murder someone, while your bible says murder is what god sometime wants.

Is there a property of objective morality that makes it obvious and indisputable to all people? I don't see that as that logically following.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

With theistic religion there is no objective morality, either. There is simply "might makes right" and a king with the biggest stick.

As it turns out, our morality is mostly biological, and the result of our evolution. Our cooperative nature came about through our survival as a species. No magic required. And let's be honest, when was the last time that a religion had problems murdering innocent people?

That's rather speculative, no?
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

I like how there's a ethical system called "Objectivism" that is almost explicitly non-theistic.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

Is there a property of objective morality that makes it obvious and indisputable to all people? I don't see that as that logically following.

I never said it had to be. By all means, prove to me that absolutely anything in christianity is completely objective to all christians.

You started this thread with a false premise. You claimed that atheists have no objective morality but you've failed to show or prove ANY group of people objectively all have the same morals. Every piece of information that enters your brain through the 5 senses is put through your own subjective filter.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

Morality comes from Philosophy mostly.
Same do what we consider virtues. And goodness.

Philosophers have, through the ages (I'm not talking about one particular philosopher or school of philosophy or one area or another, but when I do write these statements I am thinking about western philosophers and Western Philosophy) compiled what they considered to be the way people should behave to be good people and indeed, what life is about or should be about and what a life well spent means and all that stuff.

Now in this I include both laic and religious philosophy, yes, there is religious philosophy as well in christianity but the most predominant and probably indeed, the most popular one. There is religious philosophy especially in the medieval period in Europe, with people like Augustine of Hippo or Bothius Manlius (Such a manly name, it's the only reason I remember him) and ofc, Thomas Aquinas, among many many others who are more or less known. Or even some popes though I remember not which ones were the famous ones, just know that there are. This is ofc, in relation to western europe, the byzantine empire itself was a philosophers' heaven and the ones that coded neoplatoism. Ofc, a lot of the works on this issue have been destroyed when the turks conquered the byzantine empire and whatever was asimilated by the islamic empires was bastardized into what became islamic neoplatonism, an immitation and a joke but what can you do...

Anyway, neoplatonism was integral to the renaissance in case you're wondering as it teached Plato's and the ancient greeks' teachings in within the christian construct... which ofc led to some contradictions like, everything is rational and can be understood through reason except God. But Whatever God made is understandable through reason, but not God. So don't think about God too much in a rational sense but think about all the things he made which can be understood, you stupid peasant... but don't think too much, you have better things to do. I'm simplifying it ofc and trying to insert humor.

But the reason I wanted to speak a bit about neoplatonism is that it's why this thread exists. Because this was Platos', Socrates', Aristotles', Plutarchs, and others like Emperor Julian and many more teachings about morality and goodness and virtues enveloped in a Christian dogma, in a Christian veil, it lead to a lot of better things in the world and a lot of good, but it's also why there is this confusion that morality comes from God. Because all the philosophy of great philosophers that thought and wrote about what it means to be virtuous and good were taken and served to everyone alongside a Bible and a cross in the european/christendom space. So therefore people think that morality comes from God. And including today. But in fact, it doesn't because a lot of things that Christians and really, everyone who is a decent human being, finds to be moral and virtuous can be found in the pagan writings of pagans in greek and latin antiquity. But who were taken and revived within the Christian church and taught to the population, alongside the Bible and basic latin.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

I agree with many of the responses I've read thus far.

Objective morality is a made up concept. And I don't understand why saying "well you can't prove that it's immoral to murder" should bother me at all. As long as we as a society are working with the concept that it's immoral I don't care if it's "objective" or not. And if we could show that it was "objectively immoral" that still wouldn't stop people from doing it.

This is probably most accurate.

Objective morality is a made up concept because at its core morality is a made up concept. Principles and governance of behavior in terms of right and wrong is something humanity made up, and to be honest transcends systems of belief (religion.) We know that is factual as early cultures developed basic law to create civility within a community long before polytheism took a back seat to monotheism doing the same thing for generational social order and control. Just as it is no accident that monotheism took off with empires, other systems of belief took off with the advent of governing multiple communities, and morality took off the moment order was needed for the earliest tribal formations to function.

At the end of the day rational people can get together and decide what is and is not acceptable behavior for any society to function. Because of, then neither theism or atheism is a requirement for the decision of what is right and wrong in a society.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

The bible is pretty damn immoral.


Joshua 6:20-21

20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

massacre-of-the-innocents.jpg
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

I know plenty of atheists who would agree with the statement, but I'm sure that many would disagree as well. For myself, I also stand by the point that there can be no objective morality with atheism. What are your thoughts, especially if you are an atheist? Further, how do you deal with the clearly damaging ends of a lack of objective morality, such as the idea that murder of innocents is not inherently wrong?

You will find that many will say that there is no absolute standard. They will formulate this as an absolute.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

The bible is pretty damn immoral.


Joshua 6:20-21

20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

massacre-of-the-innocents.jpg

immoral? What do you mean.? That looks like good, clean fun.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

No, it's pretty definitive with a little bit of knowledge.

So then please, convince a biologist.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

Its both been tested and shown to be manipulated even by weak electromagnetic fields. Testing shows that morality arises from pretty much the same parts of our brain as emotions.

Moral judgments can be altered ... by magnets | MIT News

Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional, brain study shows | UChicago News

At least with the MIT study (the second just looks like correlation, which, meh), it seems far more complicated than the headline implies. Moral judgments never get reversed, and it only works with moral situations where in the end it turns out okay (like a failed murder attempt). There are many lurking variables there that you have to clear up before jumping straight to "morality is purely mechanical".
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

I never said it had to be. By all means, prove to me that absolutely anything in christianity is completely objective to all christians.

You started this thread with a false premise. You claimed that atheists have no objective morality but you've failed to show or prove ANY group of people objectively all have the same morals. Every piece of information that enters your brain through the 5 senses is put through your own subjective filter.

The lack of agreement on morals by others is indicative that my contention that one specific group does not have a set of morals? Umm, what?
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

At least with the MIT study (the second just looks like correlation, which, meh), it seems far more complicated than the headline implies. Moral judgments never get reversed, and it only works with moral situations where in the end it turns out okay (like a failed murder attempt). There are many lurking variables there that you have to clear up before jumping straight to "morality is purely mechanical".

so a failed murder attempt is ok if the murderer was simply unskilled?

The study itself shows that one of the mental processes that determine moral judgment (intentionality) was clearly disrupted. Intentions are very much built into any moral judgment because someone as I stated, someone can intend to do harm but fail the attempt. So yes, moral judgment can be altered mechanically.
to
As for the second article, if morality were completely logical there would be no need for the emotional centers to light up. At least some of this information is emotional and completely subjective.

Sorry dude, reality trumps philosophy yet again.
 
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Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

so a failed murder attempt is ok if the murderer was simply unskilled?

The study itself shows that one of the mental processes that determine moral judgment (intentionality) was clearly disrupted. Intentions are very much built into any moral judgment because someone as I stated, someone can intend to do harm but fail the attempt. So yes, moral judgment can be altered mechanically.
to
As for the second article, if morality were completely logical there would be no need for the emotional centers to light up. At least some of this information is emotional and completely subjective.

Sorry dude, reality trumps philosophy yet again.

Or it's changing the logical connection between the act and the consequence, thus changing the underlying morality of the act.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

Or it's changing the logical connection between the act and the consequence, thus changing the underlying morality of the act.

So a magnet is changing the logical connection of someone attempting to murder someone but failing? ok lol
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

So a magnet is changing the logical connection of someone attempting to murder someone but failing? ok lol

For all we know it could be changing the part of the brain that makes logical connections and determines causation.
 
Re: With Atheism there is no Objective Morality

For all we know it could be changing the part of the brain that makes logical connections and determines causation.

Of course it is. It is disrupting the social behaviors and instincts we developed as a survival strategy during evolution that we later decided to call morality. Intentionality directly goes towards things like identifying a free rider and accidental versus intentional harm, evaluations necessary for cohesive social behaviors.




Another example is the psychopath

How your brain makes moral judgments - CNN.com

Raine and Yang suggest, based on research, that "antisocial groups" such as psychopaths may know what is moral, but they may lack a feeling of what is moral.

A moral "feeling," which seems to be related to the brain's prefrontal cortex and amygdala, is what takes the recognition that an act is immoral and translates that recognition into behavioral inhibition, Raine and Yang wrote. "It is this engine that functions less well in antisocial, violent and psychopathic individuals."

Jesus Pujol of the Hospital de Mar, Barcelona, Spain, and colleagues did a study published in 2012 to analyze how psychopaths' brain responses to moral dilemmas might contrast with that of non-psychopaths.

Researchers used functional magnetic resonance imaging on 22 criminal psychopathic men and 22 healthy men who were not offenders. They found that most participants gave similar responses to moral dilemmas used in the study, whether they were psychopathic or not.

But their brains told a different story: The psychopaths tended to show less activation in the medial frontal and posterior cingulate cortices in response to moral dilemmas. Researchers also found differences in the psychopaths' brains in an analysis of functional connectivity -- that is, they found impairment in the connections between some brain regions involved in morality and other areas.

Pujol's group's more recent study, published this month in the journal Biological Psychiatry, also found weakened connections in psychopaths' brains that may affect their moral reasoning. Specifically, they found that structures associated with emotion showed reduced connectivity to prefrontal areas, and enhanced connectivity in an area associated with cognition.

The results suggest that, in criminal psychopaths, the brain does not adequately use emotional information to control behavioral responses.

Per this research, a psychopath would be more capable of pure moral reasoning as their emotions do not interfere so much as with the moral reasoning of a typical person (yet as underlined, they know what is moral or not intellectually). Yet psychopaths display clearly immoral behaviors and other social inhibitions? If morality were purely logical/objective and not emotional/mechanical, why do these behaviors come about in those more capable of seeing morality from a purely intellectual perspective?
 
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