• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Response to oppression

Misterveritis said:
Are you an honest person?
Click to expand...

Probably as honest as the next.

Misterveritis said:
Yes. I can tell the rabid dogs who loot and burn that they are wrong. It is really easy if one is actually a thinking, reasoning man. They need to be destroyed as a blight. And maybe, just maybe you need to man up.
Click to expand...

In being honest, I'm honestly a little confused with the above statement.

Are you simply suggesting that we look for those in the crowds that are causing the violence and separate them from the overwhelming majority of peaceful protesters?


Misterveritis said:
It is true that The One, the Father of Lies, has abused the black community. Therefore what? Until those who have darker skins begin to realize that their allegiance, for no particular reason, to the Democratic party has harmed them, and that they do have options, they will continue to be oppressed.

Blacks murder blacks. Who is oppressing whom?
Click to expand...

Well, in this country I'd argue that systemic and institutionalized racism is allowing at least several primary groups of minorities to be very oppressed.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Maybe not into the royal regiments, but they were formed into militia regiments that were then used in battle weren't they?
Click to expand...

I believe so, but this is not one of my stronger areas. My impression is that loyalism in the north was also often expressed by civilian support to Royal forces.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
To me, oppression is when your basic or natural rights are denied to you, and your ability to be happy (without affecting others of course) is affected.
Click to expand...

Sounds a lot like something Mill would right, which makes sense. On liberty, he was pretty articulate, which is coincidentally the title of one of his books.

For me, I'd take the definition right from the dictionary it might read "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control"
 
Starbuck said:
Maybe it doesn't seem like there's much conviction, but all the same I don't know how an eloquent person could've put it any better than any of the individuals I've cited. I think the President said it best when he urged police officers to be very diligent when trying to separate the violent individuals from the otherwise peaceful crowd.

Thing is, there is a lot of anger out there, which as you've said is understandable. One way or the other for this particular case, we are dealing with a systemic problem in the United States, and it's not going to be easy to resolve.

Honestly, it's a pretty tough line for anyone to walk.





Good points, all.



I also agree with this, and would go further to say that this is THE most tolerant and free nation in the world. By that I don't mean to say that there aren't problems in the U.S., but I definitely agree with you here.




That is also a great point, and Mandela is a perfect example.

I suppose my main point is that, although legally we aren't looking at the same type of oppression as we were looking at say 100 years ago, or even sixty years ago, there is still a lot of institutionalized racism. Granted, there are no longer laws official condoning racism and to some extent it has been pushed beneath the surface, but perhaps that is part of what is making the next step difficult.

When it's difficult for the oppressed to point at this or that specific cause for the problems [segregationist laws for example], I can see where frustration would stem.
Click to expand...

I think I would challenge the idea of institutionalized racism though because, you have to understand that it's been fifty years since the Civil Rights Act was passed. I mean some of those old codgers that were around back then I guess are still kicking around, but we're entering into an era where we've had two or three generations that have grown up in schools with members of different races. For white kids today, the idea that black kids are any different from there is alien to them. For my generation (I was born in the 80's) and the ones following, we just don't hold the same feelings about race that many older people do. I just feel like we've become so integrated as a society that you really have to look hard to find a racist nowadays. And when they are found (like Sterling for example) they are unanimously chastised, condemned, and unceremoniously drummed out of public perception. In this environment, I just have a hard time seeing racism, true racism, existing.
 
Jack Hays said:
I believe so, but this is not one of my stronger areas. My impression is that loyalism in the north was also often expressed by civilian support to Royal forces.
Click to expand...

I did a little research after my post just to confirm it, in all, about 50,000 at one time or another were soldiers or militia in British forces, including 15,000 from the main Loyalist stronghold of New York.

Loyalist (American Revolution) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

TheMoreYouKnowLogo.jpg
 
Starbuck said:
Probably as honest as the next.
Click to expand...
Now that is an answer that inspires something...

"Yes. I can tell the rabid dogs who loot and burn that they are wrong. It is really easy if one is actually a thinking, reasoning man. They need to be destroyed as a blight. And maybe, just maybe you need to man up."

In being honest, I'm honestly a little confused with the above statement.

Are you simply suggesting that we look for those in the crowds that are causing the violence and separate them from the overwhelming majority of peaceful protesters?
Click to expand...
Yes. There are a few, in Furgeson maybe a few dozens of agitators, community organizers, hard core, anti-American fighters who want to topple, or at least destabilize the local community. They are like rabid dogs. They need to be hunted down and captured. Like rabid dogs they need to be disposed of. Prisons are built for such people.

I do not know how many protesters were peaceful. Had I been in charge I would have deployed sniper teams throughout the area. I would have shot anyone attempting to set fire to buildings. Those who set fire to buildings must be stopped.

Well, in this country I'd argue that systemic and institutionalized racism is allowing at least several primary groups of minorities to be very oppressed.
Click to expand...
Can you describe systematic and institutionalized racism? Can you give examples of oppression? The only people I see oppressing black people are democratic politicians, white liberals and, of course, other blacks.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
I think I would challenge the idea of institutionalized racism though because, you have to understand that it's been fifty years since the Civil Rights Act was passed. I mean some of those old codgers that were around back then I guess are still kicking around, but we're entering into an era where we've had two or three generations that have grown up in schools with members of different races.
Click to expand...

And this goes back to what I was saying earlier, that we've made a lot of progress in this country over the past several decades.


Hamster Buddha said:
For white kids today, the idea that black kids are any different from there is alien to them. For my generation (I was born in the 80's) and the ones following, we just don't hold the same feelings about race that many older people do. I just feel like we've become so integrated as a society that you really have to look hard to find a racist nowadays. And when they are found (like Sterling for example) they are unanimously chastised, condemned, and unceremoniously drummed out of public perception. In this environment, I just have a hard time seeing racism, true racism, existing.
Click to expand...

It would seem that we grew up in similar times, namely the 1980's, and I can vouch for your point about integrated society. Especially, growing up in an city in the northeast. Honestly, I was under the same impression, that racism was an essential non-issue. You're also right about the outspoken examples such as Sterling, being run out of town. These are all things that, even in the northeast, wouldn't have happened several decades ago.

It really wasn't until I joined the military and was stationed far from the northeast that I really saw the ugly face of racism. Thing is, looking back at the northeast, the racism is still there, just a little more subdued.
 
Starbuck said:
You're talking to one right now.
Click to expand...

Oppression comes in many shapes and sizes, man. Sometimes we're oppressed and we don't even know it, but it is there, beneath our conscious radar.
 
Misterveritis said:
Now that is an answer that inspires something...
Click to expand...

Well good, that's what I'm here for.


Misterveritis said:
Can you describe systematic and institutionalized racism? Can you give examples of oppression? The only people I see oppressing black people are democratic politicians, white liberals and, of course, other blacks.
Click to expand...
Holmes.jpg​

When a white guy shoots up a movie theater full of innocent people, killing more than 10 of them, we see a picture of him smiling. That right there is the very image of institutionalized racism. It's a very distilled example, but also quite demonstrative.

Obviously we don't have segregationist laws anymore, but maybe that's where it's more frustrating for the oppressed. Because the nature of the oppression is less legally tangible and more societally engrained. But trust me, it's still there.
 
Jango said:
Oppression comes in many shapes and sizes, man. Sometimes we're oppressed and we don't even know it, but it is there, beneath our conscious radar.
Click to expand...

True, but I'd argue that as a white male in the United States it would be pretty difficult for me to find any particular way in which I've been oppressed. I'd also wager that it'd be pretty difficult for any other white male in this country to point out how they are oppressed either.
 
Starbuck said:
True, but I'd argue that as a white male in the United States it would be pretty difficult for me to find any particular way in which I've been oppressed. I'd also wager that it'd be pretty difficult for any other white male in this country to point out how they are oppressed either.
Click to expand...

Oppression isn't limited by skin color nor sex. It isn't always blatant like the systematic sledgehammer of oppression black people experienced in early America, or that of Russians under dictatorial regimes or the 30+ million modern day slaves. As I alluded to previously, sometimes the oppression we face is like the slow knife, the one that goes undetected and slips right in-between our ribs. An example of that slow knife is mainstream consumerist culture. If a person desires to take part in that culture, it has a stymieing effect on individuality, what we can say, think or do. Most of us were born into this bondage and often enough, the chains and yoke on us go unnoticed as we go about our daily lives just trying to scrounge enough money to stay alive, keep us fed, the lights and heat on, among other things. Some of us punch a time card as soon as we're legally able to and before we know it, 20 years has gone by--20 years of working 40+ hours a week. And if a person chooses not to work or make a catastrophic mistake or have dangerous habits, they face the very real possibility of becoming homeless. Life as it is now isn't free and to pay that tab, we put ourselves willingly into the bondage of oppression. This naturally says nothing of what the puppet masters are doing outside of our view, some of it we know though, like widespread unconstitutional spying. It's all around us, man.
 
Starbuck said:
Well good, that's what I'm here for.

When a white guy shoots up a movie theater full of innocent people, killing more than 10 of them, we see a picture of him smiling. That right there is the very image of institutionalized racism. It's a very distilled example, but also quite demonstrative.

Obviously we don't have segregationist laws anymore, but maybe that's where it's more frustrating for the oppressed. Because the nature of the oppression is less legally tangible and more societally engrained. But trust me, it's still there.
Click to expand...
I am amused. Do you have anything else?
 
Starbuck said:
And this goes back to what I was saying earlier, that we've made a lot of progress in this country over the past several decades.




It would seem that we grew up in similar times, namely the 1980's, and I can vouch for your point about integrated society. Especially, growing up in an city in the northeast. Honestly, I was under the same impression, that racism was an essential non-issue. You're also right about the outspoken examples such as Sterling, being run out of town. These are all things that, even in the northeast, wouldn't have happened several decades ago.

It really wasn't until I joined the military and was stationed far from the northeast that I really saw the ugly face of racism. Thing is, looking back at the northeast, the racism is still there, just a little more subdued.
Click to expand...

See I actually live closer to the heart of it, in the South. And I'll tell you, we're not too far removed from our racist past. I mean the things my grandmother says at times just makes me cringe. But now look at my mother who is married to a black man, and I think there is a lot of prejudice when it comes to intermingling among older folks. Again though, for those under the fifty mark, it's just a non issue, even in the South. For a problem to be institutionalized, to me, that says that some action must be taken to fix the it. Honestly, in another fifty years, we will still be talking about what ails black society? I think it's possible (especially if we hold course) that we will. But that's not because there would still be racist walking around, they'll be all dead. At that point, you really have to start looking at other causes.
 
Jango said:
It isn't always blatant like the systematic sledgehammer of oppression black people experienced in early America, or that of Russians under dictatorial regimes or the 30+ million modern day slaves.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that it has to be pretty terrible and blatant in order for it to be oppression. The 'slow knife' stuff is more of an irritant, one that is easily avoided if you apply enough brain power to the situation. Oppression is something that an individual cannot simply choose not to participate in.

With the consumer example you've cited, that's something that is easy to slip into [I know plenty of people stuck in that trap], but also something you can actually think your way out of. I've been around for thirty years and haven't been oppressed by consumerism. However, some of the most upright, hardworking people I know happen to be African American, and there isn't anything they can do about other peoples perception of their race. Honestly, in America it's not even limited to being African American either. In the workplace it's especially obvious too, even when it's not intentional.

I always say the same thing about the bikers who complain that they know how minorities feel, when people are scared of them because of their beards, leather jackets or tattoos. Thing is, all they have to do is shave or buy different cloths and the problem is solved.
 
Starbuck said:
So, as a question I'd ask:

Can someone who's not being [and never has been] oppressed honestly tell members of an oppressed group that they're overreacting, or that any particular course of action is wrong?
Click to expand...



In Ferguson, it would appear the only person who got "oppressed" was a store-robbing brutal criminal who apparently resisted arrest. Um, yeah... he kind NEEDED some "oppressing". Seen the vid of how he treated the store owner he robbed?
 
Goshin said:
In Ferguson, it would appear the only person who got "oppressed" was a store-robbing brutal criminal who apparently resisted arrest. Um, yeah... he kind NEEDED some "oppressing". Seen the vid of how he treated the store owner he robbed?
Click to expand...

First of all, he the store never actually called the police, and second of all even if he had stolen a few cigars that's not something worth a death sentence, and third of all Officer Wilson had no probable cause for arrest at the time of the incident.

Really though, the information given to the Grand Jury was pretty terrible. The DA definitely threw that case, which isn't much of a surprise.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
See I actually live closer to the heart of it, in the South. And I'll tell you, we're not too far removed from our racist past. I mean the things my grandmother says at times just makes me cringe. But now look at my mother who is married to a black man, and I think there is a lot of prejudice when it comes to intermingling among older folks. Again though, for those under the fifty mark, it's just a non issue, even in the South. For a problem to be institutionalized, to me, that says that some action must be taken to fix the it. Honestly, in another fifty years, we will still be talking about what ails black society? I think it's possible (especially if we hold course) that we will. But that's not because there would still be racist walking around, they'll be all dead. At that point, you really have to start looking at other causes.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good point and interesting take on the subject.

I think you're a bit more optimistic than I am, but that's probably a good thing. I still think we have some serious racial problems in this country, and although I do agree that time will probably help resolve many of them, I don't think time alone will heal all of them. The other thing my mind keeps coming back to is how it has to feel knowing that stuff is bad, but might not improve within your own lifetime.
 
Starbuck said:
First of all, he the store never actually called the police, and second of all even if he had stolen a few cigars that's not something worth a death sentence, and third of all Officer Wilson had no probable cause for arrest at the time of the incident.

Really though, the information given to the Grand Jury was pretty terrible. The DA definitely threw that case, which isn't much of a surprise.
Click to expand...

If the store did not call the police, why was Wilson advised to look for two young men who had just stolen cigars? Brown was not shot for stealing cigars, but for attacking a police officer. Wilson did not begin by trying to arrest Brown, but by telling him to walk on the sidewalk, not in the street.
 
Jack Hays said:
If the store did not call the police, why was Wilson advised to look for two young men who had just stolen cigars? Brown was not shot for stealing cigars, but for attacking a police officer. Wilson did not begin by trying to arrest Brown, but by telling him to walk on the sidewalk, not in the street.
Click to expand...

So, now you're starting to see the holes in the story presented to the Grand Jury. Wilson wasn't actually looking for Brown at all, just happened to encounter him.

As far as the specifics about the arrest, if you were to actually read the report given by Officer Wilson, and then compare it to statements from witnesses, there are a lot of inconsistencies. Hell, even within the Officers testimony there are a lot of inconsistencies. You know, the sort of inconsistencies that at least deserved a fair trial in court.

Like I've said, the DA threw this case.

Something along the scale of the 1919 world series.
 
Starbuck said:
So, now you're starting to see the holes in the story presented to the Grand Jury. Wilson wasn't actually looking for Brown at all, just happened to encounter him.

As far as the specifics about the arrest, if you were to actually read the report given by Officer Wilson, and then compare it to statements from witnesses, there are a lot of inconsistencies. Hell, even within the Officers testimony there are a lot of inconsistencies. You know, the sort of inconsistencies that at least deserved a fair trial in court.

Like I've said, the DA threw this case.

Something along the scale of the 1919 world series.
Click to expand...

You are free to believe as you wish. A thief attacked a cop and was shot. That is all.
 
Jack Hays said:
You are free to believe as you wish. A thief attacked a cop and was shot. That is all.
Click to expand...

First of all, a thief is innocent until proven guilty.

Second of all, as much as I respect Police Officers, I see them as neither above the law nor unimpeachable.

In his statement to the Grand Jury Officer Wilson clearly states:

He grabs my gun, says, “You are too much of a ***** to shoot me.” The gun goes down into my hip and at that point I thought I was getting shot. I can feel his fingers try to get inside the trigger guard with my finger and I distinctly remember envisioning a bullet going into my leg. I thought that was the next step.
Click to expand...

-Officer Wilson

During that same testimony he also stated that he keeps his firearm [or weapon as he calls it] on his right hip. So, I'm wondering how it was even remotely possible for Brown to reach inside the vehicle and somehow get hold of the Officers Gun [fingers inside of trigger guard] while it was holstered on his right hip?

Maybe the Officer was driving a mail truck or some small Euro Sedan?

Again, that is just one of the inconsistencies.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom