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Left Libertarianism

Nah, that sounds more like Anarchy. I'm pretty sure libertarians want a little government.

He's half right. Libertarianism is really more of a spectrum than a concrete, black & white philosophy. Anarchism does fall under libertarianism, but where he is wrong is that tends to be the "fringe" part of the movement. The far-end. Most libertarians advocate government in some form and moderate libertarians actually support a reasonably-sized government so long as it is kept in checked and does not violate any fundamental freedoms.
 
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Yea the movement is predisposed to young single males like phyllis schlafly right? Never really grows? Hah ok it's getting bigger and bigger. I find it ludicrous because you just ramble about things without showing any fact, o wait you linked to a separate forum that shows you saying the exact same thing. Well I'm glad it's true that it's not growing and I'm living in denial, but u have absolutely no idea what ur talking about
Fine, idealize it as you wish.

When it doesn't go as you idealize .. you'll remember what I said.
 
Gee, ya think? :shrug:

Yeah, maybe just a little bit optimistic


Basically, libertarianism is based on a belief that govt is not necessary to form a civil society and is, in fact, a less than optimal way to go about doing something that the people can do themselves by means of a less formal process.

From what i can tell, the difference between left and right libertarianism is the shape of the civil societies the people would (or should) form if left to their own devices. Right libertarians focus more on a society where people are free to do what they want as long as they don't interfer with the rights of others (freedom based) while left libertarians are more focused on the development of a more equitable society (prosperity/opportunity based). Another way to look at it is the right is more concerned with means while the left is more concerned with outcome though both will protest that they are concerned with the both (which is true, just one more than the other).

You need a government to effectively promote free market capitalism. Yes a truly "pure" libertarian state would be absolutely no government, but any reasonable human would see the necessity for the protection of property with the creation of value In Regards to money. What a libertarian wants is no governmental influence over citizens lives. It's the suggestion that government is there to protect property and protect liberties and that's it.

There simply can not be a libertarian movement allocating for social programs, because the minute you force a tax on people to pay other people you effectively allow government to take property of one individual and give it to another. This is not the message of libertarianism at all. It's the same suggestion that Keynesian economics is free market capitalism, it's not. There is no such thing as leftist libertarianism because it's impossible to suggest a hypocritical thesis towards a movement that has been re revolutionized through Austrian school of economics. The re revolution of this movement is the same thought processes of the liberals of the enlightenment era, which changed because of the industrial revolution. Social programs in libertarianism is the same thing as racial segregation in Marxism. It is a walking contradiction.
 
Fine, idealize it as you wish.

When it doesn't go as you idealize .. you'll remember what I said.

And when I look at your platform "because a great majority of Americans deserve political representation" it leads me to wonder why only does the majority deserve civil liberties and not all
 
Fine, idealize it as you wish.

When it doesn't go as you idealize .. you'll remember what I said.

"If only we'd listened to that obnoxiously smug forum member echoing the exact same hackneyed talking points as every other conservative on the board this whole non-idealized existence could've been avoided!"
 
"If only we'd listened to that obnoxiously smug forum member echoing the exact same hackneyed talking points as every other conservative on the board this whole non-idealized existence could've been avoided!"

Hey common show joe stamos some respect!
 
I am no expert on political theory by any means. I don't spend my free time reading the works of famous political philosophers. I just know that of the leans DP allows you to pick for your profile Libertarian-Left best fits me. I also know it covers several different points of view, some of which might even be mutually exclusive.

I am for reducing hierarchical authority in the world as much as possible, be it government or corporate.

And while I do believe our government has turned into a nanny state, before we go taking away any government entitlements to the poor and middle class, we should start with removing any government given advantages to the corporations and super wealthy first.

Left libertarian describes how I would like the world to work. But it isn't the world we live in so often the stances I take on actual policy decisions have more to do with making the best of the system we DO have.
 
They address it far more effectively than a simple "leftist" vs. " rightist" explanation.

The superiority of one political compass over another does not demonstrate the effectiveness of political compasses in general

But different strokes for different folks
 
You need a government to effectively promote free market capitalism. Yes a truly "pure" libertarian state would be absolutely no government, but any reasonable human would see the necessity for the protection of property with the creation of value In Regards to money. What a libertarian wants is no governmental influence over citizens lives. It's the suggestion that government is there to protect property and protect liberties and that's it.

There simply can not be a libertarian movement allocating for social programs, because the minute you force a tax on people to pay other people you effectively allow government to take property of one individual and give it to another. This is not the message of libertarianism at all. It's the same suggestion that Keynesian economics is free market capitalism, it's not. There is no such thing as leftist libertarianism because it's impossible to suggest a hypocritical thesis towards a movement that has been re revolutionized through Austrian school of economics. The re revolution of this movement is the same thought processes of the liberals of the enlightenment era, which changed because of the industrial revolution. Social programs in libertarianism is the same thing as racial segregation in Marxism. It is a walking contradiction.

if the people consent to give the govt the power to tax to pay for social programs, then the govt does have that power. Denying people the right to make such a decision is a limitation of their freedom and liberty to make agreements

ps - the bolded part is right libertarianism and this thread is about left libertarianism. Once again, you've gone off on a tangent
 
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You need a government to effectively promote free market capitalism. Yes a truly "pure" libertarian state would be absolutely no government, but any reasonable human would see the necessity for the protection of property with the creation of value In Regards to money. What a libertarian wants is no governmental influence over citizens lives. It's the suggestion that government is there to protect property and protect liberties and that's it.

There simply can not be a libertarian movement allocating for social programs, because the minute you force a tax on people to pay other people you effectively allow government to take property of one individual and give it to another. This is not the message of libertarianism at all. It's the same suggestion that Keynesian economics is free market capitalism, it's not. There is no such thing as leftist libertarianism because it's impossible to suggest a hypocritical thesis towards a movement that has been re revolutionized through Austrian school of economics. The re revolution of this movement is the same thought processes of the liberals of the enlightenment era, which changed because of the industrial revolution. Social programs in libertarianism is the same thing as racial segregation in Marxism. It is a walking contradiction.

I guess I'm quite the nightmare for you, huh? Advocate of both freedom and social safety nets. Who woulda thunk it possible? :roll:
 
The superiority of one political compass over another does not demonstrate the effectiveness of political compasses in general

But different strokes for different folks

I have a feeling we're probably in agreement as usual, just hung up on terminology.;)
 
Part 1. Rawls position Based mainly on his work in 'A theory of justice'.

Rawls eminent work in 'A Theory of Justice' (1971) has led the way in providing a contemporary liberal egalitarian account for distributive justice. Rawls argued against the dominant utilitarian accounts of his period, suggesting: 'utilitarian accounts did not sufficiently cater for rights, constitutional or individual' (Martin 2003,p.499).

Rawls account proceeds from 'the original position' (Rawls 1999). This starting point for Rawls makes: "the way to think about justice is to ask what principles we would agree to in an initial situation of equality" (Sandel 2010,p.140). Thus, from the outset Rawls is clear on his intention for a commitment to some system of equality.

Following in a long line of social contract theorists Rawls implores: 'the parties to the contract are placed in the 'original position' behind a thick 'veil of ignorance' (Martin 2003,p.503). Moreover: 'they are instructed in their subsequent reasoning to ignore their own particular traits, their actual place in society, their gender; and to be unaware of their society's place in history' (Martin 2003,p.503). It is at this hypothetical meeting point, the parties are in-effect, unburdened with any prior knowledge that may influence their future society. With such a clean 'slate' so to speak, such fictional rational people would choose, arguably, what is best for society.

Rawls is mindful of the contention over what factors are best for society- as a whole- and agrees agents may hold disparate concepts of what is best and consequently are likely to: 'disagree on the conception of what constitutes the best form of society.' Acknowledging this criticism, Rawls counters by suggesting: 'in the original position people do not know their own conception of the good, and neither do they know their special psychological propensities' (Wolff 2006,p.155). But for Martin (2003) what the parties do know is 'they are deciding on principles of justice and primary goods, such as incomes, wealth and opportunities to individuals', making clear : 'individuals will have to live their entire life under such arrangements'.

To give a timely example, quite simply: 'what people should be asking is what in their 'selfish interest would they want, i.e. what wage differentials could be acceptable between city bankers and dustman' (Wolff, philosophy bites 07.48). A point that needs little further explanation! Other than to say, such disparity runs counter to a supportive interpretation of Rawls intentions. A different view might interpret this disparity in such a way; that as long as the dustman has 'sufficient' utility he is not necessarily being treated unjustly. The theses of 'sufficiency' will be covered shortly. Now Moving from Rawls hypothetical experiment, too Rawls formulated principles.

Rawls 'Two Principles of Justice' that he assumes would be agreed upon in the original position are as such: "each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive scheme of equal basic liberties similar with a scheme of liberties for others" (Rawls 1999,p.53) and 'social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that they are both to everyone's advantage' [...] (p.53). From this, again-- it is critical to understand Rawls is not advocating some form of financial equality, rather, 'we treat people as equals not by removing all inequalities, but only those that disadvantage someone' (Kymlicka 2002,p.55). Kymlicka (2002) suggests this leaves Rawls theory at a unresolved juncture adding his principles are to be arranged in 'lexical order'
Rawls 'difference principle' is a broadly egalitarian principle. Broad in the sense it proscribes a " a general presumption in favour of an equal distribution of goods among all citizens" (Wolff 2006,p.158) and egalitarian in the sense that we remind ourselves Rawls position is anchored within a Western liberal democracy. Moreover, 'the difference principle asserts social inequalities are to be arranged so as to benefit those most worse off in society' (Wellman 2002,p.66). But to return to the dustman/banker example above 'nequalities of income and prestige are justified if there was fair competition in positions that yield those benefits' (Kymlicka 2002,p.57).

Within Rawls 'basic structure', It is not an unreasonable supposition to assume such positions are stacked in favour of those most able to take best advantage of such a loosely arranged 'basic structure', family economic support could be one example. Thus, 'fair competition' and it's bedfellow 'equality of opportunity' are highly contestable concepts.

So, how could inequalities tend to maximize the position of the worse off? As was clear above, Rawls does not advocate financial parity; In fact, he deters this, maintaining some personal 'incentive' is needed to make people more productive (Swift 2006). What Rawls assumes here is a society that needs some proportional reward for, So the dilemma remains on how society stands on the issue of: 'how to treat those who are 'brain surgeons' who would much rather be 'poets' (Swift 2006).

It should be clear here, Rawls made a good attempt at reconciling individual autonomy within the wider context and functions of society. I will follow up with Robert Nozick's refutation of Rawls mainly from 'Anarchy State and Utopia'. I feel, some of the above covers the left Libertarian position (if you believe there is such a position) on providing support for certain portions of society. For this reason, I say left Libertarianism is in-fact nothing more than what Rawls sets out, a liberal egalitarian position. I hope Rawls 'original position' needs no more explanation, if so look to Social contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul
 
Is Left Libertarianism a coherent political philosophy?

Left Libertarianism is not much discussed, from what I can see, within academia. Libertarianism in the normative sense is covered quite extensively. Robert Nozick in 'justice as entitlement' has been challenged not only from a liberal (Rawls, J), but a communitarian (Otsuka, M) perspective.

As an example, one argument has been over distributive justice:

Robert Nozick (American philosopher) :: The entitlement theory of justice -- Encyclopedia Britannica

What would a left Libertarian have to say on this, and other issues?

Paul

In a sense yes ... justice is entitlement ... but so is property.
 
The idea that because Joe worked to earn a loaf of bread that his neighbor Sam was "denied access" to that job and thus is entitled to half of that loaf of bread is insane. What this Libertarian believes is that if the proceeds of work are to be shared then the incentive of any individual to do any work falls off greatly.

Except that's what the libertarian DOES believe, what matters in capitalism is not the work, but who owns the Capital.
 
The left has a need to corrupt much of the English language.

Liberal has lost it's traditional meaning. Progressive has lost it's traditional meaning. Libertarian is the latest cloak some on the left wish to wear in an attempt to hide their true beliefs.

Libertarian has traditionally meant anti-state and anti-capitalist, i.e. anarchist, in europe way before right wing plutocrats started using the term in the uS
 
Holding a 'Libertarian' position, you should be more than a little converse in the subject of natural rights (the bedrock of Libertarian philosophy). If (and don't take this as me being rude) you are in any way unfamiliar with the debate over 'rights', you have absolutely NO authority to suggest you are a Libertarian.

Paul

I wanted sangha's opinion on natural rights; unfortunately, I worded my question poorly. My opinion on rights is that yours end where another's begin. Any action that does not infringe on the rights of others should not be prohibited by a government.
 
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I wanted sangha's opinion on natural rights; unfortunately, I worded my question poorly. My opinion on rights is that yours end where another's begin. Any action that does not infringe on the rights of others should not be prohibited by a government.



The problem there lies with determining "what are your rights?" and "what is the basis for that determination?"


Different folks have very different laundry lists.
 
I wanted sangha's opinion on natural rights; unfortunately, I worded my question poorly. My opinion on rights is that yours end where another's begin. Any action that does not infringe on the rights of others should not be prohibited by a government.

How is that any different than the definition that a liberal uses? Basically a liberal views rights as: Your right to live your life your life the way you choose to do so extends so far as not not impede another individual's ability to do the same, unless there is some overriding social concern (example: environmental protection, a quarantine and so on).
 
I wanted sangha's opinion on natural rights; unfortunately, I worded my question poorly. My opinion on rights is that yours end where another's begin. Any action that does not infringe on the rights of others should not be prohibited by a government.

OK. What do you think on the substantive question of distributive justice?

Paul
 
I enjoy discussing and reading discussions about ideologies and theories of governance... but I feel compelled to put this in:


You cannot and will not ever get an ideologically pure governmental system of any kind, unless it is run by an autocrat, or a smallish group that is in full agreement on all things (HAH! Try getting 10 people to agree on where to have lunch and see how that works out... lol).


All governments that can remotely claim any degree or level of "democracy" are built and run on COMPROMISE.


Why? There are only a few fundamental ways in which humans interact. In a nutshell, these are Force, Trade, or Negotiation. Only in Force is there no compromise; Trade and Negotiation almost invariably require it. One of the legitimate functions of government is to try to maximize Trade and Negotiation and minimize Force, in human interactions within its borders.

(Even with Force, negotiation sometimes is necessary, as in "negotiated surrender"... unless one side has truly overwhelming Force on its side and is willing to use it without restraint.)

Compromise necessarily negates pure ideological construction of a government, because you can't get enough people to agree on everything in a state whose population is on the modern scale (ie tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people).


One of the issues I have with libertarians is that so many of them are "no compromise!" types, who disdain any candidate who isn't ideologically pure.... and THAT, as much as anything, is why they don't win elections. Politics requires compromise, "no compromise" only exists in theory and under the coercion of force.
 
While it is true that political ideologies are not based on objective absolutes, they can be (and often are) based on ethical values that are nearly universal while recognizing that those values are not an objective truth. In my experience, libertarians take the two concepts I mentioned as objective absolutes and allow no (or sometimes, little) consideration for the possibility that they are not.

In other words a huge chunk of libertarians are EXTREMELY ARROGANT.

And yes, from what I can see, they are indeed arrogant. Arrogant and small in size (I still have yet to personally meet a single libertarian in "real life").

The secon you refute something they say they go on a rampage about how wrong and evil you are.

It's worse than conservative v liberal because you can get something done in that conversation and find some middle ground and be happy. Libertarian v anything makes for a terrible cluster**** of one side screaming how wrong the other is and having a ragefest when the other side points out that they don't even make up 1% of the political spectrum (probably for a reason).

When confronted with "your philosophy doesn't even garner 1% of national support" the libertarians then go on rants about "TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY!!!!"

It can be crazy...

All of that being said.

I have met some libertarians (on here) who aren't part of any of that, unfortunately, they are the minority within their own group.
 
How is that any different than the definition that a liberal uses? Basically a liberal views rights as: Your right to live your life your life the way you choose to do so extends so far as not not impede another individual's ability to do the same, unless there is some overriding social concern (example: environmental protection, a quarantine and so on).

Mainly, the difference is in tactics. I want to protect the environment, but I believe using the government to bludgeon people into doing what you want them to is wrong, and I know it's ineffective. Quarantines aren't an overriding social issue; walking around with a lethal, contagious pathogen is infringing on others' rights to not be exposed to a lethal, contagious pathogen.
 
In other words a huge chunk of libertarians are EXTREMELY ARROGANT.

And yes, from what I can see, they are indeed arrogant. Arrogant and small in size (I still have yet to personally meet a single libertarian in "real life").

The secon you refute something they say they go on a rampage about how wrong and evil you are.

It's worse than conservative v liberal because you can get something done in that conversation and find some middle ground and be happy. Libertarian v anything makes for a terrible cluster**** of one side screaming how wrong the other is and having a ragefest when the other side points out that they don't even make up 1% of the political spectrum (probably for a reason).

When confronted with "your philosophy doesn't even garner 1% of national support" the libertarians then go on rants about "TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY!!!!"

It can be crazy...

All of that being said.

I have met some libertarians (on here) who aren't part of any of that, unfortunately, they are the minority within their own group.

Or, they are not in-fact a libertarian, in the normative sense. That is why I'm trying to find a coherent, logical explanation of left libertarianism. Once you start down the road of entering into social schemes (distributive justice) you are no longer a libertarian. To date, I feel its a lost cause :)

Paul

Paul
 
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