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Jewish Messiah / Messianic Prophecies

Logicman

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This is a debate concerning the Jewish / Christian Messiah and the corresponding Messianic prophecies.

For the interest of this debate, we will assume there is a Messiah, as foretold in the Bible / Tanakh,
and go from there.

I'll start things off with this article, which discusses why Israel missed recognizing its Messiah.

Why Israel Missed its Messiah « The Righter Report

1. They were expecting Messiah ben David (the ‘Conquering King’) to appear, and Messiah ben Joseph (the ‘Suffering Servant’ – Jesus Christ) appeared first instead.
2. Most of them missed the times foretold about when the Messiah was to appear – in the first century A.D. And,
3. Almost no one prior to the first century expected two faces and two advents of the Messiah. But the first advent is documented in Jesus Christ, and the second is expected as surely as the first.

Let the fur fly...
 
Isaiah chapter 53 has been recognized by ancient Jewish Rabbis and Christian theologians as being a Messianic prophecy.

The Messiah in question would be the "Messiah ben Joseph" - the Suffering Servant

Here is the prophecy:

Isaiah’s Prophecy of the Messiah « The Righter Report

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.


And here's a list of ancient Jewish Rabbis who believed Isaiah 53 is Messianic

Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary
 
What are the references to Messiah ben David (as opposed to Joseph)?
 
Love how he stacks the deck right off the bat.
Presuppositionalism at its best. Why debate messianic prophecies if you start the whole thing by saying they are true?

Just more proselytizing thinly disguised as a 'debate'.
I honestly won't understand if any of the honest debaters here take Logicman up on his 'offer'.
Shame on you if you do.

Sorry eco.

PS I nominate this thread be moved to the religious forum.
 
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Presuppositionalism at its best. Why debate messianic prophecies if you start the whole thing by saying they are true?
To bash Jews? IDK. It's like the best joke ever told. We'll take your Holy Texts, claim you've read them wrong your entire life and then when you protest, declare that your entire people are responsible for killing Jesus (Matthew 27:24-25) and use that citation to conduct two centuries worth of pogroms and ethnic purges.

Badumcha!
 
Hi, actual Jew here. Most of the stuff the Logicman tries to pull in support of his religious beliefs are a few thoughts written by a handful of rabbis over several thousand years. There are likewise thousands of other ideas by various rabbis that he ignores. None of the ideas about two kinds of messiahs or anything else is accepted in any part of mainstream Jewish thought. Not now, and not then. It's a weird narrative he tires to put forth about a handful of rabbis secretly deducing a prophecy about Jesus that contradicts all of the normal ideas that Jews had about a messiah. It's nonsense. Rabbis are famous for coming up with weird interpretations about everything. The old saying is that if you lock 4 rabbis in a room overnight, in the morning you get 5 different opinions.

No Jew has ever seriously thought there was some kind of secondary mold that the messiah could fit in to. There's just the heralding by Elijah on Passover, then the uniting Jews all over the world, and then god literally coming down to rule the world himself on behalf of the Jews. That's all there is to it. That's the whole story. Logicman and his ilk also like to mine various passages, especially from Isiah, and claim that they are prophecies about the messiah. Almost all of them aren't. Most of Judaism isn't concerned with the messiah. It's just this thing that's gonna happen someday, and unlike a lot of other religions, Jews don't constantly think that the end times are imminent. They're not. Very few Jews think that the messiah is coming any time soon.

Frankly, I'm pretty offended when Christians portray such false narratives about Judaism in order to justify that Jesus really was connected to Jewish ideas. The story of Jesus basically bears no resemblance to the Jewish stories of the messiah. Nor is adding a second coming later on any excuse. There's no room for that in Judaism. For all that Christianity claims to come from Judaism, it really doesn't. It's mainly Roman paganism with a thin coat of Jewish paint on top. Trying to pretend that Judaism is some kind of preface or precursor to Christianity is actually really rude. That's reducing a people, history, and culture to an introductory paragraph, stripping them of all meaning except to pave the way for this other, real, culture.

Don't listen to Logicman's nonsense. He just sees what he wants to see, and ignores the reality that he doesn't like.
 
Many Rabbis and Jews formulate their views around refusing that Jesus is the Messiah and then rationalizing their view around that by trying to interpret Messianic prophecies in a way that meets their interest. When Jesus came the Jews were persecuted and under occupation by the Romans, they wanted the Messiah to be a deliverer to bring Israel back to independence and free from Rome. I think it's also important to remember that Jesus' disciples were Jews and the first Christians were Jews who accepted that Jesus was the Messiah. When it was shown that the Messiah has come to fulfill the law and deliver people in a more important and spiritual sense they rejected the reality of the prophecies because it wasn't what they wanted. It's no different than how other lost people try to refuse the divinity of Christ or the mentality that existed that led to Jesus' crucifixion. Regardless, the prophecies Jesus made came true. He prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed and it was. Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses no longer requiring the rituals and sacrifices in obedience to God for the forgiveness of sin, such practices no longer exist because there is no Temple, there is no longer any Levitical priesthood and since the Messiah has come there is no need for that since it has all been fulfilled with the Messiah (Jesus) being the intercessor and forgiver between God and humanity. God still has a plan for Israel and the Jews, but it mainly pertains to the end times when 144,000 Jews will be sealed and for Israel and the new Temple (when it is built) for the Antichrist to work through. God yearns to have the people he made a covenant with accept the Messiah that was prophecied to come through their lineage as he does for others. However, Judaism is obsolete with the law being fulfilled, the Messiah having come and the Levitical priesthood ending, temple and need for sacrifices ending due to the Messiah and that is also evident today. The fact of the matter is that the Messianic prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus who was and is the Messiah and the denial of this is nothing more than either a wrong interpretation of Messianic prophecies or due to the hardened hearts of individuals that simply refuse to accept that.
 
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Hi, actual Jew here. Most of the stuff the Logicman tries to pull in support of his religious beliefs are a few thoughts written by a handful of rabbis over several thousand years. .

I will also point out that a number of it are forgeries, or quoted out of context. It also totally ignores the idea that the concept of 'MESSIAH" is different in the Jewish religion verses the Christian religion.
 
I will also point out that a number of it are forgeries, or quoted out of context. It also totally ignores the idea that the concept of 'MESSIAH" is different in the Jewish religion verses the Christian religion.

Which is fine. Christians can have their myths. But when they try to appropriate Jewish ones and lie about them, then it's wrong.
 
Christians can have their myths. But when they try to appropriate Jewish ones and lie about them, then it's wrong.

Because Jews own that myth? What, IPR?
 
Which is fine. Christians can have their myths. But when they try to appropriate Jewish ones and lie about them, then it's wrong.

When they lie about them, and then try to use their lies to convert Jews, that is even worse. If you look at Logicman's claims, you will find that his sources are mainly messianiac Jewish sites that expose southern baptist theology all dressed up in Jewish terminology, and telling people that they can be Christian and Jewish too.
 
Many Rabbis and Jews formulate their views around refusing that Jesus is the Messiah and then rationalizing their view around that by trying to interpret Messianic prophecies in a way that meets their interest. When Jesus came the Jews were persecuted and under occupation by the Romans, they wanted the Messiah to be a deliverer to bring Israel back to independence and free from Rome.

Um, this didn't happen though. Jerusalem was basically destroyed by the romans well after the christian founder's death. That's some savior.


Regardless, the prophecies Jesus made came true.

Hardly. And that whole 'second coming' ****, we're still waiting last i checked.

However, Judaism is obsolete with the law being fulfilled

Gee and i wonder why such a claim would be made at that time. Possibly because judaism was competition for followers? I can do this too. "I hereby proclaim all of the NT obsolete." Now worship me
 
Um, this didn't happen though. Jerusalem was basically destroyed by the romans well after the christian founder's death. That's some savior.




Hardly. And that whole 'second coming' ****, we're still waiting last i checked.



Gee and i wonder why such a claim would be made at that time. Possibly because judaism was competition for followers? I can do this too. "I hereby proclaim all of the NT obsolete." Now worship me


And have you noticed how many of the 'prophecies' that jesus made were written down AFTER the fact? Amazing.
 
This is a debate concerning the Jewish / Christian Messiah and the corresponding Messianic prophecies.

For the interest of this debate, we will assume there is a Messiah, as foretold in the Bible / Tanakh,
and go from there.

I'll start things off with this article, which discusses why Israel missed recognizing its Messiah.

Why Israel Missed its Messiah « The Righter Report

1. They were expecting Messiah ben David (the ‘Conquering King’) to appear, and Messiah ben Joseph (the ‘Suffering Servant’ – Jesus Christ) appeared first instead.
2. Most of them missed the times foretold about when the Messiah was to appear – in the first century A.D. And,
3. Almost no one prior to the first century expected two faces and two advents of the Messiah. But the first advent is documented in Jesus Christ, and the second is expected as surely as the first.

Let the fur fly...

"Fulfilled prophesies" are usually BS. The prophesy is typically vague enough to apply to multiple scenarios and one just waits till one fits the bill and claims fulfillment.
 
"Fulfilled prophesies" are usually BS. The prophesy is typically vague enough to apply to multiple scenarios and one just waits till one fits the bill and claims fulfillment.

Usually bs. But not in the case of Jesus.
 
Yeah, that's rather convenient. Probably still BS though.


There is no probable about it. For 'prophecies' in the Jewish scriptures that Christians claim are 'full filled' by Jesus, there are several types.

1) Out of context
2) Written to.
3) Mistranslated
4) Shoe horned into place.
 
To bash Jews? IDK. It's like the best joke ever told. We'll take your Holy Texts, claim you've read them wrong your entire life and then when you protest, declare that your entire people are responsible for killing Jesus (Matthew 27:24-25) and use that citation to conduct two centuries worth of pogroms and ethnic purges.
Which if true would inevitably would drive one to become Muslim.
 
This is a debate concerning the Jewish / Christian Messiah and the corresponding Messianic prophecies.

For the interest of this debate, we will assume there is a Messiah, as foretold in the Bible / Tanakh,
and go from there.

I'll start things off with this article, which discusses why Israel missed recognizing its Messiah.

Among Jesus' unfulfilled Jewish messianic prophecies is Isaiah 42:4, of course, one of the issues with Christianity is that they cannot even agree on a single translation, resulting in differing interpretations, and there are also those apologists who are willing to postpone the fulfillment of Jewish messianic prophecies until the "Second Coming", which is not supported in the OT.

Not knowing your preferred translation, here are several renditions of that verse.

New International Version
he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his teaching the islands will put their hope."

New Living Translation
He will not falter or lose heart until justice prevails throughout the earth. Even distant lands beyond the sea will wait for his instruction."

English Standard Version
He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law.

New American Standard Bible
"He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law."

Of course one cannot forget the KJV...

King James Bible
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

So you can say that Israel missed the messiah, but can you defend Jesus' failure to fulfill the Isaiah 42:4 prophecy?
 
Among Jesus' unfulfilled Jewish messianic prophecies is Isaiah 42:4, of course, one of the issues with Christianity is that they cannot even agree on a single translation, resulting in differing interpretations, and there are also those apologists who are willing to postpone the fulfillment of Jewish messianic prophecies until the "Second Coming", which is not supported in the OT.

1. The 2,150 year old Dead Sea "Isaiah Scroll" provides good supporting evidence for what we have today:

"And he will not grow faint or be crushed until he has established justice on earth; and the coastlands will inherit his law."

http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah?id=42:4

2. Where does it say in the Bible that the Messiah will only come once?

So you can say that Israel missed the messiah, but can you defend Jesus' failure to fulfill the Isaiah 42:4 prophecy?

Until you can provide for me where in the Bible it says the Messiah will only come once, then the answer is Jesus will fulfill the remaining Messianic prophecies at his 2nd Coming.

What's more, as is documented in the previous link, various Jewish rabbis have concluded that Daniel chapter 9 speaks about the Messiah. And in Daniel chapter 9, it says that he (the Messiah) will be "cut off" (killed), and then, AFTER THAT, "war will continue until the end."

So, either the Messiah returns from the dead, or a second Messiah will have to usher in the ultimate millennial reign. Which will you have?
 
1. The 2,150 year old Dead Sea "Isaiah Scroll" provides good supporting evidence for what we have today:

"And he will not grow faint or be crushed until he has established justice on earth; and the coastlands will inherit his law."

http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah?id=42:4

Unsure of your point, it re-iterates the verse I already posted.

2. Where does it say in the Bible that the Messiah will only come once?

Seems obvious that, "he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth", indicates something that will be done with no "second coming" even implied. That the Christian God, Jesus, needs two chances to get right what the prophecied Jewish messiah, a mere mortal, was to accomplish is an apology, a defense of Jesus' failure.

Until you can provide for me where in the Bible it says the Messiah will only come once, then the answer is Jesus will fulfill the remaining Messianic prophecies at his 2nd Coming.

So basically, you're saying the omnipotent God needs a second chance to get things right. Fallible humans, however, and according to the religious, get no such second chances.

What's more, as is documented in the previous link, various Jewish rabbis have concluded that Daniel chapter 9 speaks about the Messiah. And in Daniel chapter 9, it says that he (the Messiah) will be "cut off" (killed), and then, AFTER THAT, "war will continue until the end."

So, either the Messiah returns from the dead, or a second Messiah will have to usher in the ultimate millennial reign. Which will you have?

I don't see why, with the qualities attributed to God, Jesus couldn't have gotten things right the first time.
 
Seems obvious that, "he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth", indicates something that will be done with no "second coming" even implied. That the Christian God, Jesus, needs two chances to get right what the prophecied Jewish messiah, a mere mortal, was to accomplish is an apology, a defense of Jesus' failure.

So basically, you're saying the omnipotent God needs a second chance to get things right. Fallible humans, however, and according to the religious, get no such second chances.

I don't see why, with the qualities attributed to God, Jesus couldn't have gotten things right the first time.

Like I said, various Jewish rabbis have concluded that Daniel chapter 9 speaks about the Messiah. And in Daniel chapter 9, it says that he (the Messiah) will be "cut off" (killed), and then, AFTER THAT, "war will continue until the end." So, either the Messiah returns from the dead, or a second Messiah will have to usher in the ultimate millennial reign. Which will you have?

Do you have an answer for that?
 
Like I said, various Jewish rabbis have concluded that Daniel chapter 9 speaks about the Messiah. And in Daniel chapter 9, it says that he (the Messiah) will be "cut off" (killed), and then, AFTER THAT, "war will continue until the end." So, either the Messiah returns from the dead, or a second Messiah will have to usher in the ultimate millennial reign. Which will you have?

Do you have an answer for that?

Which Jewish rabbis conclude that Daniel 9 speaks of the messiah, other than Jews for Jesus?

As generally recognized by Jews, the Hebrew Bible is organized into three main sections: the Torah, or “Teaching,” also called the Pentateuch or the “Five Books of Moses”; the Neviʾim, or Prophets; and the Ketuvim, or Writings. The Book of Daniel is a part of the "Writings". Unlike the Torah and the books of Prophets, the works found in Ketuvim do not present themselves as the fruits of direct divine inspiration.
 
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