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Toleration

opendebate said:
I think all it really takes is people who "think" they are different than one another spending time together and getting to know one another as individuals instead of as just cultural stereotypes. I guess I have fundamental faith in humans so I believe that most often people who hold prejudicial views are able to preserve them due to a lack of one on one exposure to those the hold prejudicial views against.
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I appreciate your fundamental faith in humans.

I'm probably a little more skeptical than you, but nonetheless I like to hope that I'm wrong.
 
Starbuck said:
I appreciate your fundamental faith in humans.

I'm probably a little more skeptical than you, but nonetheless I like to hope that I'm wrong.
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For the record, it's not naivety or stupidity (or at least I hope) I've met my share of hard hearted people. It's just also been my experience that if you're patient and stay kind, most people eventually let down their guard and actually see you .
 
Starbuck said:
I really think there is a lot to be learned from Canada, things which could be applied on a much broader scope. I also do remember that Michael Moore video, which reminded me of growing up. My parents, father in particular, was very fond of locks on doors. He'd double lock everything and then invent several new ways to secure the door, completely ignoring the glass window next to the door. My grandparents, conversely, never locked a single door, their house was everyones house. I've always liked that mentality, the tighter you cling to your possessions, the looser your grip upon reality becomes.

Also, it's just better for society in general, to have more people focused on life rather than things, plays into the promotion of tolerance much better. Keeping the doors locked and preventing the 'other' from entering your space, only serves to separate you further from the 'other.'



He did, and it really goes back to exactly what you were saying.

Crazy how one conversation can really open your eyes to something.
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It is amazing what the open minded can learn, like meeting a Chinese man ins Saskatchewan and thinking him an immigrant when his ancestors had chiseled the railway through Rockies.

Michael Moore is one American that "gets" Canada. One of my favorite commedies is Canadian Bacon with John Candy in hjs last screen appearance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGkgpGybVck
 
opendebate said:
For the record, it's not naivety or stupidity (or at least I hope) I've met my share of hard hearted people. It's just also been my experience that if you're patient and stay kind, most people eventually let down their guard and actually see you .
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Sorry if it came across that way, I definitely didn't mean to equate fundamental faith in humans with naivety. Honestly, I've found quite the opposite to be true. Over the years, and with more experience I have found more faith in humanity.

It's funny, a lot of people say:

"Liberal when you're young and conservative when you get a job and learn about the world."

Not that I'd label myself as a liberal, in the contemporary incarnation anyway, but really the older I get the more open minded I become.
 
Fearandloathing said:
It is amazing what the open minded can learn, like meeting a Chinese man ins Saskatchewan and thinking him an immigrant when his ancestors had chiseled the railway through Rockies.
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That's a great scenario, I've always liked having my expectations upset.

Fearandloathing said:
Michael Moore is one American that "gets" Canada. One of my favorite commedies is Canadian Bacon with John Candy in hjs last screen appearance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGkgpGybVck
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Canadian Bacon is a great film, definitely miss John Candy.
 
Toleration is not discriminating against or shunning people based on differences that are ultimately harmless. Things like dress, food, music, and who someone does or does not pray to are ultimately harmless and should always be tolerated. How a person influences political decisions, societal mores, or affects their neighbors are things that are not harmless. Those should not be tolerated if they cause harm. We should tolerate the harmless, but not tolerate the harmful. It's pretty simple.
 
Starbuck said:
That's a great scenario, I've always liked having my expectations upset.



Canadian Bacon is a great film, definitely miss John Candy.
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I still get laughs from Bowling for Columbine the way he is so amazed we don't like our doors.

He makes an interesting point in that film, Canada has as many gun owners per capita than the US but a little more than one per cent of the murder rate; the difference he points to is not less guns, but the culture of fear. Living here so long I had failed to notice, but he's right. The reason we don't lock our doors is we are not afraid, the reason we are not afraid, he maintains is news coverage. He has a point.
 
Starbuck said:
Sorry if it came across that way, I definitely didn't mean to equate fundamental faith in humans with naivety. Honestly, I've found quite the opposite to be true. Over the years, and with more experience I have found more faith in humanity.

It's funny, a lot of people say:

"Liberal when you're young and conservative when you get a job and learn about the world."

Not that I'd label myself as a liberal, in the contemporary incarnation anyway, but really the older I get the more open minded I become.
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I started out liberal...swung to the right when I was in the business world...now I am no longer in the business world I have swung left again but with a better understanding of "money". There has always been enough for all within our system, it's just getting it to those who need the most help that is difficult. It seems to disappear when given into some kind of middle hole for which it was never intended.

The other thing that has changed for me is my view of people. I thought all rich were dastardly, all poor somehow just needed a bit of help. My understanding of human nature and greed has been adjusted to a more 'grey' perspective. Not that I was ever black and white but human nature can be tricky and I am more open to that now.

So my toleration shifts more easily to fit the situation.
 
Fearandloathing said:
I still get laughs from Bowling for Columbine the way he is so amazed we don't like our doors.

He makes an interesting point in that film, Canada has as many gun owners per capita than the US but a little more than one per cent of the murder rate; the difference he points to is not less guns, but the culture of fear. Living here so long I had failed to notice, but he's right. The reason we don't lock our doors is we are not afraid, the reason we are not afraid, he maintains is news coverage. He has a point.
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As a female I have to be honest and say I am far more nervous travelling in the States than in Canada. We were hiking recently in the Finger Lakes area. An old truck drove up that was having some type of mechanical problem. I turned saw the gun rack loaded. We were in a fairly secluded area. I looked at my guy and we just slowly turned from our viewing point, got into our car and left. We would not likely have done that here at home.

It also makes me nervous sitting in a restaurant to see open holstered guns on people's hip.
 
~SAL said:
As a female I have to be honest and say I am far more nervous travelling in the States than in Canada. We were hiking recently in the Finger Lakes area. An old truck drove up that was having some type of mechanical problem. I turned saw the gun rack loaded. We were in a fairly secluded area. I looked at my guy and we just slowly turned from our viewing point, got into our car and left. We would not likely have done that here at home.

It also makes me nervous sitting in a restaurant to see open holstered guns on people's hip.
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That is entirely understandable. What has confused me since my childhood [I am a dual citizen] is that the United States is unique in the world, the only industrialized nation where people carry guns; but next door, Canada went the other way.

If you stop and think about it, our national police force which is municipal policing in many areas here, the uniform still requires hand guns be covered, the dress uniform they are on a lanier.

How and why we went the other way I say rests in the work of John Ralston Saul and his contention we melded cultures with our First Nations.
 
Fearandloathing said:
That is entirely understandable. What has confused me since my childhood [I am a dual citizen] is that the United States is unique in the world, the only industrialized nation where people carry guns; but next door, Canada went the other way.

If you stop and think about it, our national police force which is municipal policing in many areas here, the uniform still requires hand guns be covered, the dress uniform they are on a lanier.

How and why we went the other way I say rests in the work of John Ralston Saul and his contention we melded cultures with our First Nations.
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on another forum I am on with many Canadian participants from the west, I find they have a very positive gun attitude and most there support the NRA and argue that as citizens we are not entitled to safety and must maintain our own protection. They are big gun enthusiasts. I am from Ontario and most here if they have guns, use them for hunting. I don't know anyone who would think they need one for protection. I have never heard anyone I know consider "blowing someone away" because they got out of line. On my other forum many of the Canadians there do think like that.

I am going to do some research on John Ralston Saul. Thanks.
 
~SAL said:
on another forum I am on with many Canadian participants from the west, I find they have a very positive gun attitude and most there support the NRA and argue that as citizens we are not entitled to safety and must maintain our own protection. They are big gun enthusiasts. I am from Ontario and most here if they have guns, use them for hunting. I don't know anyone who would think they need one for protection. I have never heard anyone I know consider "blowing someone away" because they got out of line. On my other forum many of the Canadians there do think like that.

I am going to do some research on John Ralston Saul. Thanks.
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John Ralston Saul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A very arrogant husband of Adrian Clarkson, Governor General, retired.

Those westerners I suspect are from Alberta and Saskatchewan, maybe some from northern BC. I only know one guy who thinks that way and he is a US Marine Corps veteran who did two tours of duty in Vietnam and wishes it never ended.

For the most part, on the coast and in most of BC, the attitude toward guns is that of Ontario where I was born - Elora. We have an occasional wacko, but no politician would run on a pro-gun ticket.

The NRA has an incredibly BAD reputation here as "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS" Charlton Heston blew it big time. Came here with his "right to bear arms" crap and was destroyed in every interview he did, mostly about his nice little trick of traveling to and staging "rallies" in areas where a tragic shooting has occurred, like he did in Columbine.

That I would say slammed the door on any "right to bear arms" bull**** for a couple of centuries. When I do encounter such an individual I offer to raise money for them so they can move to Detroit..."you'll love it there...is you survive."
 
Fearandloathing said:
John Ralston Saul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A very arrogant husband of Adrian Clarkson, Governor General, retired.

Those westerners I suspect are from Alberta and Saskatchewan, maybe some from northern BC. I only know one guy who thinks that way and he is a US Marine Corps veteran who did two tours of duty in Vietnam and wishes it never ended.

For the most part, on the coast and in most of BC, the attitude toward guns is that of Ontario where I was born - Elora. We have an occasional wacko, but no politician would run on a pro-gun ticket.

The NRA has an incredibly BAD reputation here as "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS" Charlton Heston blew it big time. Came here with his "right to bear arms" crap and was destroyed in every interview he did, mostly about his nice little trick of traveling to and staging "rallies" in areas where a tragic shooting has occurred, like he did in Columbine.

That I would say slammed the door on any "right to bear arms" bull**** for a couple of centuries. When I do encounter such an individual I offer to raise money for them so they can move to Detroit..."you'll love it there...is you survive."
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Aah I wondered why his name was so familiar. Thanks for the link.

Actually those westerners are from there...yes. One is a gun instructor and I wouldn't mind being in a room with him and his weapons as he would appear quite logical, rational and safety conscious about guns from his posts. Other areas, not so much. But then that instructor that the nine year old killed was a vet he likely thought he was safety conscious too. Why they put a weapon of war of that size into someone's hands who is as big as a twig...who knows. He likely thought he was safety conscious too.

Bahaha...you were born in Elora? Very close to where I live. We were hiking there down in the gorge last week. They have zip-lining across the gorge now...$20.00. It's been a cold summer so hiking has been fabulous and it is beautiful there. I love Elora.

When I was younger I wanted to learn to shoot. Now I would probably just shoot my eye out...lol.

I'm not big on weaponry. The older I get, the more I feel that way.
 
zyzygy said:
Pointing out that Aquinas was intolerant is on topic. Do you agree that his views on women were extremely intolerant? You brought him into the disussion.
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Thank you for demonstrating that you have absolutely no idea what classical tolerance is.
 
~SAL said:
Aah I wondered why his name was so familiar. Thanks for the link.

Actually those westerners are from there...yes. One is a gun instructor and I wouldn't mind being in a room with him and his weapons as he would appear quite logical, rational and safety conscious about guns from his posts. Other areas, not so much. But then that instructor that the nine year old killed was a vet he likely thought he was safety conscious too. Why they put a weapon of war of that size into someone's hands who is as big as a twig...who knows. He likely thought he was safety conscious too.

Bahaha...you were born in Elora? Very close to where I live. We were hiking there down in the gorge last week. They have zip-lining across the gorge now...$20.00. It's been a cold summer so hiking has been fabulous and it is beautiful there. I love Elora.

When I was younger I wanted to learn to shoot. Now I would probably just shoot my eye out...lol.

I'm not big on weaponry. The older I get, the more I feel that way.
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Oh god, please don't tell me they have zip lining in the gorge. When I was a kid it wasn't even a park, no one went there.

You know the restaurant on the Grand River overlooking the dam and rock stands. It may still have a water wheel. That wheel was still powering the woodworking equipment at the ELora Furniture factory when I was a kid.

That instructor would be a rarity here, and a social outcast in Vancouver. I lived around guns all my life, my dad was a US federal gun dealer so he could easily trade them and he was a tool and die maker and you need a federal license to make gun parts. I was 15 when when the president of our gun club, an instructor, pistol shooter [he and his wife] was killed in a hunting accident. He shot himself while climbing over a fence.

That says a lot about my attitude of "gun safety" People make mistakes, hundreds every day. When we make a mistake cooking, we get burned. When we make a mistake gardening, we get a blister. When you make a mistake with guns, people die.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Oh god, please don't tell me they have zip lining in the gorge. When I was a kid it wasn't even a park, no one went there.
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LOL zip lining, camping, tubing, rappelling, cliff jumping...you name it, they have it

You know the restaurant on the Grand River overlooking the dam and rock stands. It may still have a water wheel. That wheel was still powering the woodworking equipment at the ELora Furniture factory when I was a kid.
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wild hey?

That instructor would be a rarity here, and a social outcast in Vancouver. I lived around guns all my life, my dad was a US federal gun dealer so he could easily trade them and he was a tool and die maker and you need a federal license to make gun parts. I was 15 when when the president of our gun club, an instructor, pistol shooter [he and his wife] was killed in a hunting accident. He shot himself while climbing over a fence.

That says a lot about my attitude of "gun safety" People make mistakes, hundreds every day. When we make a mistake cooking, we get burned. When we make a mistake gardening, we get a blister. When you make a mistake with guns, people die.
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he shot himself climbing over a fence...wow... that is just so far out of my realm...now if I was moving into some wilderness area, I would want a gun. I heard today some kindergartener took a loaded gun to school in his backpack. He took it because he didn't want anyone at home to get hurt. If that were my kid, I would have vomited and likely passed out.

People do make mistakes. I like your analogy.
 
~SAL said:
LOL zip lining, camping, tubing, rappelling, cliff jumping...you name it, they have it

wild hey?

he shot himself climbing over a fence...wow... that is just so far out of my realm...now if I was moving into some wilderness area, I would want a gun. I heard today some kindergartener took a loaded gun to school in his backpack. He took it because he didn't want anyone at home to get hurt. If that were my kid, I would have vomited and likely passed out.

People do make mistakes. I like your analogy.
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I would take a rifle into the wilderness here, but not a hand gun. The coastal black bear is twice as large as the eastern and even a .357 hollow point would likely tickle it and if you're close enough to use a hand gun, you're an afternoon snack anyway. Mountain Lions will run at the sound, but just the same could become angry and charge a hand gun.

He took a gun to school because he didn't want anyone to get hurt is rather deep for a kid, and commendable. My issue is with how he got his hands on it and what prison his parents would like.
 
Fearandloathing said:
I would take a rifle into the wilderness here, but not a hand gun. The coastal black bear is twice as large as the eastern and even a .357 hollow point would likely tickle it and if you're close enough to use a hand gun, you're an afternoon snack anyway. Mountain Lions will run at the sound, but just the same could become angry and charge a hand gun.
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I'm not big on hiking in bear country. A friend of mine lives in Alaska and last year it was hot and her grandkid's wading pool was in the back yard and baby black bears were using it as a personal cooler/swimmimg pool. They moved it up onto the deck, to keep them out of it but the baby bears just hung out on their deck then. They were cute pictures through the sliding doors but not my kind of living.

He took a gun to school because he didn't want anyone to get hurt is rather deep for a kid, and commendable. My issue is with how he got his hands on it and what prison his parents would like.
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loaded a five year old handled a loaded gun and they didn't even know it
 
~SAL said:
I'm not big on hiking in bear country. A friend of mine lives in Alaska and last year it was hot and her grandkid's wading pool was in the back yard and baby black bears were using it as a personal cooler/swimmimg pool. They moved it up onto the deck, to keep them out of it but the baby bears just hung out on their deck then. They were cute pictures through the sliding doors but not my kind of living.

loaded a five year old handled a loaded gun and they didn't even know it
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here there isn't much choice...you either hike in bear country or you don't hike. Vancouver has a huge Coyote population, North and West Vancouver have to shoot one or two bears a year. The most beautiful hiking in the north shore mountains where bears and mountain lions are active.

But bear attacks, like sharks are rare. One bear we encountered rose up and stood when she heard us. And when, stupidly, we did not run - usually an invitation to charge - she merely snorted, settled and lumbered off like she was disgusted with our stupidity. "Don't these humans know I eat them?"

It was late August and she was dining on blackberries, no cubs around so she was probably content.


I suppose it adds some excitement to the experience, although you would think standing atop a 1,000 shear drop would be enough.
 
Fearandloathing said:
here there isn't much choice...you either hike in bear country or you don't hike. Vancouver has a huge Coyote population, North and West Vancouver have to shoot one or two bears a year. The most beautiful hiking in the north shore mountains where bears and mountain lions are active.

But bear attacks, like sharks are rare. One bear we encountered rose up and stood when she heard us. And when, stupidly, we did not run - usually an invitation to charge - she merely snorted, settled and lumbered off like she was disgusted with our stupidity. "Don't these humans know I eat them?"

It was late August and she was dining on blackberries, no cubs around so she was probably content.


I suppose it adds some excitement to the experience, although you would think standing atop a 1,000 shear drop would be enough.
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Well, reading your post above about the thrills of hiking in your area has me curled in a ball, whimpering! I have an extreme fear of 1,000 sheer drops, you see, which is bad enough, but coupling it with bears, mountain lions, and coyotes roaming around sent my imagination into hyperdrive - and here I am, a pitiful wreck! So, I'll take your advice - I'll limit my hiking while in BC to getting to the beach instead! :mrgreen:

Greetings, F&L. :2wave:
 
polgara said:
Well, reading your post above about the thrills of hiking in your area has me curled in a ball, whimpering! I have an extreme fear of 1,000 sheer drops, you see, which is bad enough, but coupling it with bears, mountain lions, and coyotes roaming around sent my imagination into hyperdrive - and here I am, a pitiful wreck! So, I'll take your advice - I'll limit my hiking while in BC to getting to the beach instead! :mrgreen:

Greetings, F&L. :2wave:
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Oh dear...

Let me help you with that fear, dear...loading the vaporizer.

I had not meant to scare anyone, and frankly most people never see a bear, mountain lions are ever rarer and coyotes, well they run when you shout at them.

This "frontier" atmosphere is offset by the beaches, where the worst you have to fear is a contact high.

Kitsilano Beach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

at the end of my street, four minutes stroll...these pics were taken in winter.

And, btw, we have m,any eagle's nests in the city, one aerie is right around the corner from this beach. And we get the occasional Orca come through and ots os seals an sea lions....

It is safe to go in the water too
 
Fearandloathing said:
Oh dear...

Let me help you with that fear, dear...loading the vaporizer.

I had not meant to scare anyone, and frankly most people never see a bear, mountain lions are ever rarer and coyotes, well they run when you shout at them.

This "frontier" atmosphere is offset by the beaches, where the worst you have to fear is a contact high.

Kitsilano Beach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

at the end of my street, four minutes stroll...these pics were taken in winter.

And, btw, we have m,any eagle's nests in the city, one aerie is right around the corner from this beach. And we get the occasional Orca come through and ots os seals an sea lions....

It is safe to go in the water too
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What a lovely unique beach! As you doubtless have read, I just had a trip to Northern California cancelled because of the earthquake that hit the area where my sister lives. She had plans for us to travel to Vancouver while I was there, and I'm sorry it didn't happen. We can always go another time, though. On one of my trips there in the past, we did see the whales migrating, and that was something to behold! On that trip, she also took me on the 17-mile highway to Pebble Beach, and I did get to see Clint Eastwood's home - from a distance. :mrgreen: We had lunch at the Pebble Beach Country Club, and cooked steaks out on the Pacific beach for dinner. You guys know how to live! :thumbs:
 
polgara said:
What a lovely unique beach! As you doubtless have read, I just had a trip to Northern California cancelled because of the earthquake that hit the area where my sister lives. She had plans for us to travel to Vancouver while I was there, and I'm sorry it didn't happen. We can always go another time, though. On one of my trips there in the past, we did see the whales migrating, and that was something to behold! On that trip, she also took me on the 17-mile highway to Pebble Beach, and I did get to see Clint Eastwood's home - from a distance. :mrgreen: We had lunch at the Pebble Beach Country Club, and cooked steaks out on the Pacific beach for dinner. You guys know how to live! :thumbs:
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A yes, the California coast is beautiful there. I have been to both those places, but it was when I was drinking still, so the memories are vague.

If you have the time, the drive from Sausalito north along 101 through to Washington is the most spectacular I have ever seen outside of British Columbia

It is a two day drive from SF to here, and worth it. My last visitor from West Virginia who LOVED California said she will never go back there, but here instead.

If you do ever come, let me know...I know the best places and the best ethnic food....from Polynesia to Poland, we got it.
 
Fearandloathing said:
here there isn't much choice...you either hike in bear country or you don't hike. Vancouver has a huge Coyote population, North and West Vancouver have to shoot one or two bears a year. The most beautiful hiking in the north shore mountains where bears and mountain lions are active.

But bear attacks, like sharks are rare. One bear we encountered rose up and stood when she heard us. And when, stupidly, we did not run - usually an invitation to charge - she merely snorted, settled and lumbered off like she was disgusted with our stupidity. "Don't these humans know I eat them?"

It was late August and she was dining on blackberries, no cubs around so she was probably content.


I suppose it adds some excitement to the experience, although you would think standing atop a 1,000 shear drop would be enough.
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I'd likely have a heart attack. Afterwards though, I would be higher than a kite. Nature at its best.

Mountain lions can be viscous I've heard of them dragging people off of bikes and attempting to pull them into wilderness/bush. A bear is bigger but a mountain lion hm, I'd rather the bear.
 
~SAL said:
I'd likely have a heart attack. Afterwards though, I would be higher than a kite. Nature at its best.

Mountain lions can be viscous I've heard of them dragging people off of bikes and attempting to pull them into wilderness/bush. A bear is bigger but a mountain lion hm, I'd rather the bear.
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I have lived here for 35 years and have never come across one documented account of a Mountain Lion attack.

Like I said, bears are like sharks, attacks draw a lot of attention, but are very rare and usually the result of stupidity, like the guy who tried to pick up a cub with momma bear just over the ridge.
 
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