Existentialism

For those not familiar with it, here are some definitions from Wikipedia and Ive added some of my own too.

Basically it means that individuals determine their own development/destiny/purpose in life through their acts and feelings, not just thoughts. There are several subsets of existentialism, namely fatalism, determinism and nihilism.

Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine stressing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate. The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. Also it could mean an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable.

Determinism is a philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. It is similar to fatalism in that it creates an illusion of choice but in the end, everything falls into place in a single way because there really isnt a choice.

Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being "thrown" into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create his or her own subjective "meaning" or "purpose".

Another important aspect to existentialism is the definition of absurdity. The notion of the Absurd contains the idea that there is no meaning to be found in the world beyond what meaning we give to it. This meaninglessness also encompasses the amorality or "unfairness" of the world. This contrasts with the notion that "bad things don't happen to good people"; to the world, metaphorically speaking, there is no such thing as a good person or a bad person; what happens happens, and it may just as well happen to a "good" person as to a "bad" person.

Because of the world's absurdity, at any point in time, anything can happen to anyone, and a tragic event could plummet someone into direct confrontation with the Absurd.

Does anybody subscribe to this philosophy? I would consider myself an existential nihilist since Im an atheist and I more or less create my own meaning of life.

Thoughts?

PoS said:

For those not familiar with it, here are some definitions from Wikipedia and Ive added some of my own too.

Basically it means that individuals determine their own development/destiny/purpose in life through their acts and feelings, not just thoughts. There are several subsets of existentialism, namely fatalism, determinism and nihilism.

Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine stressing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate. The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. Also it could mean an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable.

Determinism is a philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. It is similar to fatalism in that it creates an illusion of choice but in the end, everything falls into place in a single way because there really isnt a choice.

Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being "thrown" into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create his or her own subjective "meaning" or "purpose".

Another important aspect to existentialism is the definition of absurdity. The notion of the Absurd contains the idea that there is no meaning to be found in the world beyond what meaning we give to it. This meaninglessness also encompasses the amorality or "unfairness" of the world. This contrasts with the notion that "bad things don't happen to good people"; to the world, metaphorically speaking, there is no such thing as a good person or a bad person; what happens happens, and it may just as well happen to a "good" person as to a "bad" person.

Because of the world's absurdity, at any point in time, anything can happen to anyone, and a tragic event could plummet someone into direct confrontation with the Absurd.

Does anybody subscribe to this philosophy? I would consider myself an existential nihilist since Im an atheist and I more or less create my own meaning of life.

Thoughts?

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Yes I prescribe to it.

Life is meaningless but I dare you to stop creating meaning! See what happens!

Personally, I think we have less free will than what's commonly believed. Our life is complex, but there are certain undeniable patterns that we can perceive and just things that we know because it involves us specifically. Basically, the way things are around the world right now, we're living second-to-second. Try as we personally might, the world all around us can influence, change or end us at any given moment. However, I'd wager that our ancestors experienced the same kind of problems, but because of the time in-between the long ago past and the time we're in now, so many more problems have complicated our continued existence. Some of these problems are in our communities, our schools & even our own home. So if we choose to be a member of the human community, less-and-less bonafide free will is available. But even moving out into the woods and becoming a hermit carries less free will than what most people accept. The social contract was akin to bonds & shackles upon free will just when it was at its very strongest. Submitting to an authority that has the capabilities to Come Get You at any given moment is one among many invisible nooses around our necks every second of the day. An additional impact against free will from the social contract is what authorities bring with them to control how things operate, yes, laws. Tocqueville recognized the downfall of the U.S. legal system back in the 1800's, which is supposed to be "a nation of laws." Among good laws there are bad laws. Bad laws are additional bonds & shackles. There's a whole lot more, but hopefully, you get what I'm saying as it is now.

Jango said:

Personally, I think we have less free will than what's commonly believed. Our life is complex, but there are certain undeniable patterns that we can perceive and just things that we know because it involves us specifically. Basically, the way things are around the world right now, we're living second-to-second. Try as we personally might, the world all around us can influence, change or end us at any given moment. However, I'd wager that our ancestors experienced the same kind of problems, but because of the time in-between the long ago past and the time we're in now, so many more problems have complicated our continued existence. Some of these problems are in our communities, our schools & even our own home. So if we choose to be a member of the human community, less-and-less bonafide free will is available. But even moving out into the woods and becoming a hermit carries less free will than what most people accept. The social contract was akin to bonds & shackles upon free will just when it was at its very strongest. Submitting to an authority that has the capabilities to Come Get You at any given moment is one among many invisible nooses around our necks every second of the day. An additional impact against free will from the social contract is what authorities bring with them to control how things operate, yes, laws. Tocqueville recognized the downfall of the U.S. legal system back in the 1800's, which is supposed to be "a nation of laws." Among good laws there are bad laws. Bad laws are additional bonds & shackles. There's a whole lot more, but hopefully, you get what I'm saying as it is now.

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According to this philosophy this whole thing is just you trying to make sense of the world rather than bare a few seconds of experience from the dread and anxiety of meaningless uncertainty. In other plain words, this is your BS cause not making BS makes you anxious.

Yes, I am quite fatalistic as an individual who is part of the traditional cultural identity of my country (something ironically, most aren't) and romanian literature in all forms, operas and theater and other cultural activities in all forms is quite fatalistic. Ofc, it isn't just romanian culture that is very much catering to fatalistic notions, it's common in many a places, and quite common in eastern europe and the the balkans, but I was just pointing out a few things.


This in sharp contrast to the "you can make your own fate" or generally "uppity" sort of nature of, say, american cultural norms and traditions.

However, I must reinforce that fatalism, determinism and nihilism are different from one another. Determinism is not the same as predeterminism which is the foundation of fatalism. To rephrase and put determinism into another perspective than the one you gave: Determinism is different than fatalism in that it's a more mathematical approach. It states that if you know the conditions or the events up to this point, you can know what will happen in the future. This is opposite to fatalism where regardless of what happened in the past, you cannot know the future and thus the only recourse is to accept it.

So the difference between determinism and fatalism would be, if it were to be expressed mathematically, something like this.
Determinism: 1, 2 (this is what you know, just 1 and 2, from here on out, using this knowledge, you have to anticipate what will come next. Determinism says that logically, or not even logically, but given the way past events happened, the next event would be 3 meaning we have an artihmetic progression... but what if it's 4? That means we're in a geometric progression. What if it's 1? That means it's two numbers that keep repeating themselves as 1, 2, 1, 2... etc)
Fatalism: 1, 2 (this is what you know happened... what happens next we'll just have to accept that it'll be what it is. Could be 3... could be 4... could be 100... could be the word "LOL". And you have to accept that that's fate.)
Nihilism: 1, 2 (this is what you know happened and there is no point to it. I mean honestly, screw it all, it doesn't matter, I'll start my own thing with blackjack and hookers because it's all pointless and those people who try adn find meaning in that are just trying to fool themselves)

It's a sort of the talking points of Dune, isn't it. You can see the future but you are powerless to change it, unless ofc, you see the golden path and take that path, which is ofc, something only the true Kwizatz Haderach can do.

PoS said:

For those not familiar with it, here are some definitions from Wikipedia and Ive added some of my own too.

Basically it means that individuals determine their own development/destiny/purpose in life through their acts and feelings, not just thoughts. There are several subsets of existentialism, namely fatalism, determinism and nihilism.

Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine stressing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate. The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. Also it could mean an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable.

Determinism is a philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. It is similar to fatalism in that it creates an illusion of choice but in the end, everything falls into place in a single way because there really isnt a choice.

Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being "thrown" into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create his or her own subjective "meaning" or "purpose".

Another important aspect to existentialism is the definition of absurdity. The notion of the Absurd contains the idea that there is no meaning to be found in the world beyond what meaning we give to it. This meaninglessness also encompasses the amorality or "unfairness" of the world. This contrasts with the notion that "bad things don't happen to good people"; to the world, metaphorically speaking, there is no such thing as a good person or a bad person; what happens happens, and it may just as well happen to a "good" person as to a "bad" person.

Because of the world's absurdity, at any point in time, anything can happen to anyone, and a tragic event could plummet someone into direct confrontation with the Absurd.

Does anybody subscribe to this philosophy? I would consider myself an existential nihilist since Im an atheist and I more or less create my own meaning of life.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

It does seem difficult to believe in anything other than predetermination of what's going on, when we consider science. It is all just so complicated that it feels like we can make up our minds and act on our own.

DDD said:

According to this philosophy this whole thing is just you trying to make sense of the world rather than bare a few seconds of experience from the dread and anxiety of meaningless uncertainty. In other plain words, this is your BS cause not making BS makes you anxious.

Click to expand...

This is the philosophy section, man. Relax. We're all just exchanging ideas & our thoughts. There's no need to take or make things personal. So if you'd like to talk about why you dislike or disagree with what I said, then that's perfectly fine. But if all you want to do is take pokes at me, then have fun with that.

DDD said:

Yes I prescribe to it.

Life is meaningless but I dare you to stop creating meaning! See what happens!

Click to expand...

Maybe life has meaning and sense like lent in The Sirens of Titan by Salo from Trafalmadore and as there we strive to fulfill our purpose.

To me, it seems, existentialism and all its subsets all correct, to a certain degree. by themselves they're flawed, because humans think and operate in individually different ways. but, i disagree with "Existential nihilism", because life does have meaning, but its 'value' is determined by you.

DarkWizard12 said:

but, i disagree with "Existential nihilism", because life does have meaning, but its 'value' is determined by you.

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Which is exactly what existential nihilism is.

To me, it seems, existentialism and all its subsets all correct, to a certain degree. by themselves they're flawed, because humans think and operate in individually different ways. but, i disagree with "Existential nihilism", because life does have meaning, but its 'value' is determined by you.

PoS said:

Which is exactly what existential nihilism is.

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no, no no, existential nihilsm, as i understand, already assigns an intrinsic value to life as nothing, whereas, by right of someone being alive, i think there is no price too large for that person.

DarkWizard12 said:

no, no no, existential nihilsm, as i understand, already assigns an intrinsic value to life as nothing, whereas, by right of someone being alive, i think there is no price too large for that person.

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Yes, but you thinking that way assigns a value/meaning to it, according to your views.

Jango said:

This is the philosophy section, man. Relax. We're all just exchanging ideas & our thoughts. There's no need to take or make things personal. So if you'd like to talk about why you dislike or disagree with what I said, then that's perfectly fine. But if all you want to do is take pokes at me, then have fun with that.

Click to expand...

Nothing I said was intended personally at you, much less poke at you, even less more having fun while I poke at you. I was trying to illustrate the existentialist position. All what you said is just how you have build your own bubble of reality with meaning according to the existentialist philosophy.

Was my last line that included somewhat more vulgar words such as "BS" that made it seem as if it was personal? I thought "BS" is used regularly over there in USA?

joG said:

It does seem difficult to believe in anything other than predetermination of what's going on, when we consider science.

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How is science predeterministic (see Rainman's definition above)?

You hold the predeterministic position and yet:

joG said:

It is all just so complicated that it feels like we can make up our minds and act on our own.

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If we act on our own then our actions are not predetermined, are they?

joG said:

Maybe life has meaning and sense like lent in The Sirens of Titan by Salo from Trafalmadore and as there we strive to fulfill our purpose.

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This is just you making meaning out of that... Story is it?

Sometimes Metallica's "Fade to Black" creates meaning for me:

Metallica - Fade to Black - YouTube

But otherwise there is no common ground to which we should find purpose that is shared ontogenetically or phylogenetically.

PoS said:

For those not familiar with it, here are some definitions from Wikipedia and Ive added some of my own too.

Basically it means that individuals determine their own development/destiny/purpose in life through their acts and feelings, not just thoughts. There are several subsets of existentialism, namely fatalism, determinism and nihilism.

Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine stressing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate. The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. Also it could mean an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable.

Determinism is a philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. It is similar to fatalism in that it creates an illusion of choice but in the end, everything falls into place in a single way because there really isnt a choice.

Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being "thrown" into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create his or her own subjective "meaning" or "purpose".

Another important aspect to existentialism is the definition of absurdity. The notion of the Absurd contains the idea that there is no meaning to be found in the world beyond what meaning we give to it. This meaninglessness also encompasses the amorality or "unfairness" of the world. This contrasts with the notion that "bad things don't happen to good people"; to the world, metaphorically speaking, there is no such thing as a good person or a bad person; what happens happens, and it may just as well happen to a "good" person as to a "bad" person.

Because of the world's absurdity, at any point in time, anything can happen to anyone, and a tragic event could plummet someone into direct confrontation with the Absurd.

Does anybody subscribe to this philosophy? I would consider myself an existential nihilist since Im an atheist and I more or less create my own meaning of life.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

It's ridiculous.

Paleocon said:

It's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Please explain why you think that.

Jango said:

Personally, I think we have less free will than what's commonly believed. Our life is complex, but there are certain undeniable patterns that we can perceive and just things that we know because it involves us specifically. Basically, the way things are around the world right now, we're living second-to-second. Try as we personally might, the world all around us can influence, change or end us at any given moment. However, I'd wager that our ancestors experienced the same kind of problems, but because of the time in-between the long ago past and the time we're in now, so many more problems have complicated our continued existence. Some of these problems are in our communities, our schools & even our own home. So if we choose to be a member of the human community, less-and-less bonafide free will is available. But even moving out into the woods and becoming a hermit carries less free will than what most people accept. The social contract was akin to bonds & shackles upon free will just when it was at its very strongest. Submitting to an authority that has the capabilities to Come Get You at any given moment is one among many invisible nooses around our necks every second of the day. An additional impact against free will from the social contract is what authorities bring with them to control how things operate, yes, laws. Tocqueville recognized the downfall of the U.S. legal system back in the 1800's, which is supposed to be "a nation of laws." Among good laws there are bad laws. Bad laws are additional bonds & shackles. There's a whole lot more, but hopefully, you get what I'm saying as it is now.

Click to expand...

But cant an individual choose his own fate, so to speak, by making little decisions as to whether he goes to college, or drops out of school and choosing what job he has in order to forge his own long term destiny? Whether we admit it or not, life is a series of choices, and those choices we make ultimately determines the outcome- good or bad is a matter of perspective. One can choose to be a cop, or a criminal or a hermit- even in the most repressive of societies one still has some influence over his individual fate.

PoS said:

Please explain why you think that.

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Because it denies things like the fact that humans have free will and that things do have purposes.

Paleocon said:

Because it denies things like the fact that humans have free will and that things do have purposes.

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But it doesnt deny that at all. Existentialism is primarily focused on the actions of individuals and that is free will- individuals are free to do whatever they want, what existentialism says is that there are consequences to such actions and it sometimes manifests itself as a form of absurdity. What existentialism denies is rationality- that there is somehow a universal set of logic and reason for everyone, what it proclaims instead is that everyone is defined by their actions, whatever it may be.

PoS said:

But it doesnt deny that at all. Existentialism is primarily focused on the actions of individuals and that is free will- individuals are free to do whatever they want, what existentialism says is that there are consequences to such actions and it sometimes manifests itself as a form of absurdity. What existentialism denies is rationality- that there is somehow a universal set of logic and reason for everyone, what it proclaims instead is that everyone is defined by their actions, whatever it may be.

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You said it, it denies rationality, that makes it ridiculous by definition.

Paleocon said:

You said it, it denies rationality, that makes it ridiculous by definition.

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While rationality is fine in regards to things such as science, when it comes to the human condition it has limits and one cannot resort to reason to solve every problem. When one moves into the subjective realm of stuff like morality, ethics, metaphysics, the human boundaries are nearly limitless and subjected to individual differences of opinion based on experience. Sartre calls rationality "bad faith" because it is an attempt by flawed individuals to define boundaries of a phenomenon which doesnt have any or cannot be completely understood.

This is the reason why so called scientific fields of psychology for example are called "soft" or "inexact" sciences, because diagnosis and definitions change all the time depending on the accepted norms of society. There are no constant rules or laws. As an example of this homosexuality was considered a mental illness up until the 1970s.

PoS said:

Yes, but you thinking that way assigns a value/meaning to it, according to your views.

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meaning =/= value.

PoS said:

While rationality is fine in regards to things such as science, when it comes to the human condition it has limits and one cannot resort to reason to solve every problem. When one moves into the subjective realm of stuff like morality, ethics, metaphysics, the human boundaries are nearly limitless and subjected to individual differences of opinion based on experience. Sartre calls rationality "bad faith" because it is an attempt by flawed individuals to define boundaries of a phenomenon which doesnt have any or cannot be completely understood.

This is the reason why so called scientific fields of psychology for example are called "soft" or "inexact" sciences, because diagnosis and definitions change all the time depending on the accepted norms of society. There are no constant rules or laws. As an example of this homosexuality was considered a mental illness up until the 1970s.

Click to expand...

None of the things you listed as subjective are actually so.