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Why America might Mirror the Collapse of the Roman Empire

AristocraticRep

AristocraticRep

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Over extension. The collapse of the republic in favor of an empire. Rampant infighting. These are all reasons cited by scholars as catalysts for the fall of the greatest empire in history. However, an often overlooked factor is the widespread belief that such a collapse would happen. This belief ran most rampant among the ruling class, which was quite inopportune for the Roman people. The Roman historian Polybius popularized this disbelief in Roman success in his Histories published in the second century BCE. One passage from his work states "For this state, which takes its foundation and growth from natural causes, will pass through a natural evolution to its decay." He went on to say that this is "a proposition which scarcely requires proof, since the inexorable course of nature is sufficient to impose it on us." He might have merely meant that time would run its course and the Roman rule would pass as all rule does....but at the same time as he was publishing his work, other Roman intellectuals such as his contemporary Sallust were spreading the Platonic belief that all governments who do not mirror Plato's ideal republic would naturally fail at some point, the farther away from the ideal republic the quicker the collapse. Roman culture was steeped in Greek philosophy, and the words of Plato and Aristotle (despite their HUGE differences) were revered almost as law. It is ironic that as Rome grew in power, the skeptics prevalent in Roman politics viewed it as never being in worse shape. Cicero, seeing the looming downfall of Rome, attempted to shift the popular viewpoint of Rome's future into a more optimistic direction, while championing Aristotle's philosophy in place of that of Plato. He may have succeeded in delaying the downfall, but it seems Rome's fate was already sealed. Roman politicians viewed the inevitability of their republic's collapse as an excuse to seek power and live corruptly in the present. With such a pessimistic outlook, their morality deteriorated quickly.

Fast forward a couple thousand years, and we have America, the greatest political achievement in history. Similar to the turning point in Roman history, we are at a time where it is a widely accepted viewpoint that the U.S.A. is on a downward trajectory, some going so far as the claim that our current president is ruining the country. Gloom and doom is as rampant, if not more so, than it was in Rome. Some of the foremost figures in American politics, such as the leading conservatives currently, even profess such beliefs themselves. Democrats do so as well, but obviously in the lesser direction. The parallels to Rome are obvious.

But does this really mean anything? I guess it is a matter of opinion. I believe, when analyzing Roman history, the collapse of the greatest empire ever assembled had more to do with philosophy and a belief of impending doom than anything. And it is hard to argue that America's philosophy is as strong as it used to be, or that people are as confident in the country. A self-fulfilling prophecy is a dangerous thing.
 
I wouldn't really mind it if we mirrored the collapse of Rome. After the capitol city was sacked, most of the provinces kept on chugging, some of them for a century! And considering that there are thirteen military bases in Georgia, I like our chances of avoiding getting conquered for quite a while!
 
Well, considering all empires fall, and saying this as an American myself, I don't honestly see the big deal.

Sure it's great to live in an empire. Then again, especially as a young person, deep down you do find yourself secretly yearning for its collapse and the barbarians to take the wall. Empires are boring.
 
AristocraticRep said:
Over extension. The collapse of the republic in favor of an empire. Rampant infighting. These are all reasons cited by scholars as catalysts for the fall of the greatest empire in history. However, an often overlooked factor is the widespread belief that such a collapse would happen. This belief ran most rampant among the ruling class, which was quite inopportune for the Roman people. The Roman historian Polybius popularized this disbelief in Roman success in his Histories published in the second century BCE. One passage from his work states "For this state, which takes its foundation and growth from natural causes, will pass through a natural evolution to its decay." He went on to say that this is "a proposition which scarcely requires proof, since the inexorable course of nature is sufficient to impose it on us." He might have merely meant that time would run its course and the Roman rule would pass as all rule does....but at the same time as he was publishing his work, other Roman intellectuals such as his contemporary Sallust were spreading the Platonic belief that all governments who do not mirror Plato's ideal republic would naturally fail at some point, the farther away from the ideal republic the quicker the collapse. Roman culture was steeped in Greek philosophy, and the words of Plato and Aristotle (despite their HUGE differences) were revered almost as law. It is ironic that as Rome grew in power, the skeptics prevalent in Roman politics viewed it as never being in worse shape. Cicero, seeing the looming downfall of Rome, attempted to shift the popular viewpoint of Rome's future into a more optimistic direction, while championing Aristotle's philosophy in place of that of Plato. He may have succeeded in delaying the downfall, but it seems Rome's fate was already sealed. Roman politicians viewed the inevitability of their republic's collapse as an excuse to seek power and live corruptly in the present. With such a pessimistic outlook, their morality deteriorated quickly.

Fast forward a couple thousand years, and we have America, the greatest political achievement in history. Similar to the turning point in Roman history, we are at a time where it is a widely accepted viewpoint that the U.S.A. is on a downward trajectory, some going so far as the claim that our current president is ruining the country. Gloom and doom is as rampant, if not more so, than it was in Rome. Some of the foremost figures in American politics, such as the leading conservatives currently, even profess such beliefs themselves. Democrats do so as well, but obviously in the lesser direction. The parallels to Rome are obvious.

But does this really mean anything? I guess it is a matter of opinion. I believe, when analyzing Roman history, the collapse of the greatest empire ever assembled had more to do with philosophy and a belief of impending doom than anything. And it is hard to argue that America's philosophy is as strong as it used to be, or that people are as confident in the country. A self-fulfilling prophecy is a dangerous thing.
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More and more, I'm beginning to think that we flatter ourselves by making comparison to Rome at all. If our decline is going to mirror anything, it will likely be that of the Spanish Empire more than any other historical power.

The chronic and unsustainable overspending? The debt? The hubris? The decadent and non-productive culture? The inability to change? The constant ineffectual meddling in futile and indecisive conflicts and political squabbles which only serve to sap our strength, wealth, and international credibility?

It simply fits the bill. :shrug:

The odds are that we will not go out with a bang, or even a whimper. We will simply limp on in a decrepit state of self-imposed deficiency until eventually fading into irrelevant mediocrity, as our (most likely East Asian and Indian) rivals pass us, and the rest of the more or less stagnant Western World, by.
 
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Gathomas88 said:
More and more, I'm beginning to think that we flatter ourselves by making comparison to Rome at all. If our decline is going to mirror anything, it will likely be that of the Spanish Empire more than any other historical power.

The chronic and unsustainable overspending? The debt? The hubris? The decadent and non-productive culture? The inability to change? The constant ineffectual meddling in futile and indecisive conflicts and political squabbles which only serve to sap our strength, wealth, and international credibility?

It simply fits the bill. :shrug:

The odds are that we will not go out with a bang, or even a whimper. We will simply limp on in a decrepit state of self-imposed deficiency until eventually fading into irrelevant mediocrity, as our (most likely East Asian and Indian) rivals pass us, and the rest of the more or less stagnant Western World, by.
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There are a variety of possible scenarios but it is generally felt that the country is failing, which the left appears to support. While many Americans have tired of world leadership there are others who will be pleased to take over, and it will not be as seamless as the power transfer from Britain to America.

Russia, China, Muslims or Spanish speaking nations have been predicted as possible successors but a civil war is also possible. I see greater state rights, and a sharp change in the education system, as the only workable remedy to change the downward direction.
 
I see many here state that they are fine with the collapse. I would just like to make you aware that falling from an empire position is not done gracefully. You by most odds will be kicked down by your rivals and made sure you remain there for good.

I am skeptic that the USA will collapse. There are more corrupt and unproductive countries such as Russia and China and they are still maintaining their super-powers nicely. Why the ill supported predictions of doom?
 
Plus if you are to mirror the Romans you should divide to two, the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire. The later should sell its territorial integrity (largely the Albanian territories) to Slavs in exchange for defense, and this inner turmoil should weaken you to the degree of being easily taken from Ottoman Empire, or China perhaps in your case.

Who plays the Byzantine Empire and who would play Albanians and Greeks within it?
 
Ryan5 said:
Well, considering all empires fall, and saying this as an American myself, I don't honestly see the big deal.

Sure it's great to live in an empire. Then again, especially as a young person, deep down you do find yourself secretly yearning for its collapse and the barbarians to take the wall. Empires are boring.
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I'll take the boredom. You can have the barbarians and beheadings.
 
Ryan5 said:
Well, considering all empires fall, and saying this as an American myself, I don't honestly see the big deal.

Sure it's great to live in an empire. Then again, especially as a young person, deep down you do find yourself secretly yearning for its collapse and the barbarians to take the wall. Empires are boring.
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That's as good an example of crapping in your own food bowl as you are likely to find...
 
There seems to be some kind of logical disconnect with people who think that America can just go away and that they will get to keep their internet, their I-Pads, their night spots and everything else will remain the same.
 
it's just me said:
There seems to be some kind of logical disconnect with people who think that America can just go away and that they will get to keep their internet, their I-Pads, their night spots and everything else will remain the same.
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Why? Britain lost its empire AND was heavily bombed in WWII, and is still an affluent nation today.
 
Visbek said:
Why? Britain lost its empire AND was heavily bombed in WWII, and is still an affluent nation today.
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That's because Britain, once one of America's closest allies, owed their affluence to America's strength.. But both are now headed in the same direction.

Israel and many other democracies throughout the world will also suffer, if not disappear, however many are trying to solve their potential problems in preparation for America's imminent collapse.
 
it's just me said:
There seems to be some kind of logical disconnect with people who think that America can just go away and that they will get to keep their internet, their I-Pads, their night spots and everything else will remain the same.
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They grew up never knowing anything different and believe freedom is a natural birthright. Getting their news from the Comedy Channel, they elect their leaders because of their 'coolness', not real world experience.
 
here, I have been waiting so patiently for the rise of the great Caesars, and all I got was Dubya.
 
DDD said:
Plus if you are to mirror the Romans you should divide to two, the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire. The later should sell its territorial integrity (largely the Albanian territories) to Slavs in exchange for defense, and this inner turmoil should weaken you to the degree of being easily taken from Ottoman Empire, or China perhaps in your case.

Who plays the Byzantine Empire and who would play Albanians and Greeks within it?
Click to expand...

I would have divided them into two, but at that point the collapse of both was already determined.
 
Jesse Booth said:
I wouldn't really mind it if we mirrored the collapse of Rome. After the capitol city was sacked, most of the provinces kept on chugging, some of them for a century! And considering that there are thirteen military bases in Georgia, I like our chances of avoiding getting conquered for quite a while!
Click to expand...

The city of Rome fell in 476 AD ( I think ) but the Eastern half of the Empire carried on until 1453 when the Turks took Constantinople. Even then Trebzond was Roman, although not for long.

All empires come and go. We British speak from experience.
 
DDD said:
So do not divide them into two then?
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For the purpose of comparing the Roman decline due to the cause I highlighted to the same in the United States, no. It is better to compare Rome when it was still whole. Now if the United States were to somehow split into two again, with some form of civil war, then that comparison would also be valid. I merely meant that for the purpose of my post, the splitting of Rome into two autonomous "empires" was irrelevant, as at that time the collapse of Rome was essentially ensured.
 
The wealthy have been sucking away the wealth of the nation and hoarding it into idleness because they can't find any productive place to invest it ... and conservatives get mad when the left realizes that we can't afford to be an empire.

You can't on the one hand deprive the middle class of prosperity, and on the other hand maintain a treasury depleting empire. Eventually, the middle class runs out of money. Broad based prosperity = Strength.
 
Dezaad said:
The wealthy have been sucking away the wealth of the nation and hoarding it into idleness because they can't find any productive place to invest it ... and conservatives get mad when the left realizes that we can't afford to be an empire.

You can't on the one hand deprive the middle class of prosperity, and on the other hand maintain a treasury depleting empire. Eventually, the middle class runs out of money. Broad based prosperity = Strength.
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Whenever leftist policies run into problems the solution, to them, is always more leftist policies.

Few leftists seem to have noticed that Americans are more dependent on government than ever, are trillions of dollars in debt, and yet they blame this situation on the 1%, the same 1% they elect to run the country and who inevitably enable more leftist policies.

They dish out millions to their cronies and call it 'impetus spending', or give it to political cronies for 'investing in the future', and the leftists buy into it. Even Hillary and Bill, multimillionaires many times over, are trying to downplay their wealth and claiming poverty like 'the common folk'. They also hypocritically claimed Mitt Romney was out of touch because of his wealth. Of course Romney owed his wealth to creating things while the Clinton's earned theirs just by talking.
 
Dezaad said:
The wealthy have been sucking away the wealth of the nation and hoarding it into idleness because they can't find any productive place to invest it ... and conservatives get mad when the left realizes that we can't afford to be an empire.

You can't on the one hand deprive the middle class of prosperity, and on the other hand maintain a treasury depleting empire. Eventually, the middle class runs out of money. Broad based prosperity = Strength.
Click to expand...

Conservative and liberal policies BOTH are "treasury depleting" at this point. Conservative leaders want expensive wars every time an apparent sleight to American happens on the international scene, which liberals chastise. On the other side, liberals who you claim "realize we can't afford to be an empire" practice Keynesian economics and attempt to spend our way out of the same debt that such strategies created in the first place with welfare programs, universal medical care, and other government programs. You're right, we can't afford to be an empire. But replacing one vastly irresponsible expense with others does not solve the problem.
 
All empires in history have collapsed. America is now no longer number one in things we used to be. Our rise to world power was lightning fast after WWII. China's rise in the world is also very rapid and like us they will also collapse probably much sooner than other powers.
 
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