Why America might Mirror the Collapse of the Roman Empire

NWO_Spook · Jul 16, 2014

AristocraticRep said:
Over extension. The collapse of the republic in favor of an empire. Rampant infighting. These are all reasons cited by scholars as catalysts for the fall of the greatest empire in history. However, an often overlooked factor is the widespread belief that such a collapse would happen. This belief ran most rampant among the ruling class, which was quite inopportune for the Roman people. The Roman historian Polybius popularized this disbelief in Roman success in his Histories published in the second century BCE. One passage from his work states "For this state, which takes its foundation and growth from natural causes, will pass through a natural evolution to its decay." He went on to say that this is "a proposition which scarcely requires proof, since the inexorable course of nature is sufficient to impose it on us." He might have merely meant that time would run its course and the Roman rule would pass as all rule does....but at the same time as he was publishing his work, other Roman intellectuals such as his contemporary Sallust were spreading the Platonic belief that all governments who do not mirror Plato's ideal republic would naturally fail at some point, the farther away from the ideal republic the quicker the collapse. Roman culture was steeped in Greek philosophy, and the words of Plato and Aristotle (despite their HUGE differences) were revered almost as law. It is ironic that as Rome grew in power, the skeptics prevalent in Roman politics viewed it as never being in worse shape. Cicero, seeing the looming downfall of Rome, attempted to shift the popular viewpoint of Rome's future into a more optimistic direction, while championing Aristotle's philosophy in place of that of Plato. He may have succeeded in delaying the downfall, but it seems Rome's fate was already sealed. Roman politicians viewed the inevitability of their republic's collapse as an excuse to seek power and live corruptly in the present. With such a pessimistic outlook, their morality deteriorated quickly.

Reading Roman sources one can always find a pessimistic individual that bemoans the decline of morality etc..(Plutarch, Suetonius inter alios), however, your sources are for the Republican period and do not take into account the heights achieved under the Imperial system. The Roman empire endured for centuries after Polybius and Cicero were long dead.

The Roman Empire finally fell with Mehmet taking Constantinople in 1453, and it had endured the Republic, invasions, financial and monetary crises, the Tetrarchy, the rise of Christianity and the loss of the city of Rome itself during its hegemony. It couldn't withstand the expansionist policies of the Islamic Turkic tribes, and it had little to do with any perceived notions of decadence and moral decline.

Furthermore, one cannot view the US as an imperialistic power in the true sense, and any perceived future loss of global influence can be more accurately compared to the fall of the British Empire after WWII, in that the over-extension was exposed during a period of financial crisis, as opposed to any ideological or moral failure.

Grant · Jul 16, 2014

rhinefire said:
All empires in history have collapsed. America is now no longer number one in things we used to be. Our rise to world power was lightning fast after WWII. China's rise in the world is also very rapid and like us they will also collapse probably much sooner than other powers.

Right, but at the time they believe it will go on forever due to their natural superiority and innate birthright. Only after it's gone do they finally realize that they've lost it.

Reformedfindlay · Jul 16, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
More and more, I'm beginning to think that we flatter ourselves by making comparison to Rome at all. If our decline is going to mirror anything, it will likely be that of the Spanish Empire more than any other historical power.

The chronic and unsustainable overspending? The debt? The hubris? The decadent and non-productive culture? The inability to change? The constant ineffectual meddling in futile and indecisive conflicts and political squabbles which only serve to sap our strength, wealth, and international credibility?

It simply fits the bill. :shrug:

The odds are that we will not go out with a bang, or even a whimper. We will simply limp on in a decrepit state of self-imposed deficiency until eventually fading into irrelevant mediocrity, as our (most likely East Asian and Indian) rivals pass us, and the rest of the more or less stagnant Western World, by.

"Spanish Empire"

Ok I know some people hate Obama and Bush and all but we aren't led by literal retards...

Charles II of Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Northern Light · Jul 17, 2014

I was never really fond of this comparison for multiple reasons, the least of which is that Rome was around for way longer than the United States has been. The U.S. is a young nation by comparison. In equivalency of grandiosity, we are nothing compared to Rome. We would have to found a colony on the moon for that to happen or somewhere astronomically impossible.

The U.S. is collapsing because of pride, gluttony, greed, and stagnation of the globalized economy that it basically created. I would say pride is its biggest problem though.

Manny · Jul 17, 2014

Northern Light said:
The U.S. is collapsing because of pride, gluttony, greed, and stagnation of the globalized economy that it basically created. I would say pride is its biggest problem though.

There are many reasons, that is true. I think that greed and the lust for power plays a major role. Also lack of cooperation towards a singular vision for the nation. The country is divided along 2 extreme lines, left vs right. The more that liberalism extends its reach and enforces its values, the more conservatism responds in equal and opposite reaction. So at the root of the political division is a difference in moral values. There are two different visions for the future of America, each one threatened by the other.
In fact America has always been divided, and the strife that brought civil war has not been reconciled. Rather than find common ground to strengthen a nation, the forces motivated by greed and power drove the nation further apart.

AristocraticRep · Jul 25, 2014

NWO_Spook said:
Reading Roman sources one can always find a pessimistic individual that bemoans the decline of morality etc..(Plutarch, Suetonius inter alios), however, your sources are for the Republican period and do not take into account the heights achieved under the Imperial system. The Roman empire endured for centuries after Polybius and Cicero were long dead.

The Roman Empire finally fell with Mehmet taking Constantinople in 1453, and it had endured the Republic, invasions, financial and monetary crises, the Tetrarchy, the rise of Christianity and the loss of the city of Rome itself during its hegemony. It couldn't withstand the expansionist policies of the Islamic Turkic tribes, and it had little to do with any perceived notions of decadence and moral decline.

Furthermore, one cannot view the US as an imperialistic power in the true sense, and any perceived future loss of global influence can be more accurately compared to the fall of the British Empire after WWII, in that the over-extension was exposed during a period of financial crisis, as opposed to any ideological or moral failure.

As you pointed out, I did not use any imperial sources. I should have focused more on how the "collapse" of our political system mirrors the collapse of the Republic of Rome, and how the moral decline present throughout the history of Rome also doomed them. However, I do not consider "Rome" to have been around until 1453. Once the empire split, it was already doomed. Hell, it was doomed before that. I believe the comparison that I have drawn in the OP is still valid.

NWO_Spook · Jul 25, 2014

AristocraticRep said:
As you pointed out, I did not use any imperial sources. I should have focused more on how the "collapse" of our political system mirrors the collapse of the Republic of Rome, and how the moral decline present throughout the history of Rome also doomed them. However, I do not consider "Rome" to have been around until 1453. Once the empire split, it was already doomed. Hell, it was doomed before that. I believe the comparison that I have drawn in the OP is still valid.

After Constantine moved the capitol of the empire to Constantinople (c. 330 AD), Rome lost its political significance. It had already been shunned as an imperial capital when Diocletianus chose Siscia as his administration base and Maximianus chose Milan. Even though the Italian peninsula fell to the Goths, the Roman Empire continued, and later Justinianus I reconquered the peninsula from Constantinople (c. 540), however, these gains were soon lost and the empire continued to shrink over the next 1,000 years.

I'm well aware that many modern historians share Gibbon's disgust of the Eastern empire, but despite this bias, it still maintained the imperial system until 1453 with a complete line of succession going back to Augustus. The once the empire split it was already doomed claim is not supported by the historical reality, and our anachronistic use of the term 'Byzantine' is already falling out of favour, as they (the Romaioi) still considered themselves Roman even though Latin was finally dropped as the Lingua Franca under Constans II (c. 630 AD). It is telling that although Gibbon hated the Christian Empire of the East, he still considered them Roman and his monumental work, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire ends with the fall of Constantinople in 1453. I've never understood why people seem to think that the empire fell with the city (Rome), for that is erroneous.

Further to this, Gibbon believed the moral decline began with the reign of Commodus (161-192 AD), but it wasn't a feature of the Fall of the Roman Empire, for that can be attributed to internal political disarray and the pressure of outside incursions.

NWO_Spook · Jul 25, 2014

Heraclius, 610-641. Silver Hexagram, minted in Constantinpole

Legend: Deus Adiuta Romanis (God help the Romans)
Minted in Constaninople, officina: K

Why America might Mirror the Collapse of the Roman Empire

NWO_Spook

Grant

Reformedfindlay

cynical class clown

Northern Light

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Manny

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AristocraticRep

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NWO_Spook

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