• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

And this is why religion gets a bad name...

Amadeus

Amadeus

Chews the Cud
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
6,081
Reaction score
3,216
Location
Benghazi
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Here we have a Texas politician debating a Christian minister over public policy. Guess which one is the crazy religious person, and which one is in favour of the separation of Church and State? You might be surprised... or not.

 
Amadeus said:
Here we have a Texas politician debating a Christian minister over public policy. Guess which one is the crazy religious person, and which one is in favour of the separation of Church and State? You might be surprised... or not.

Click to expand...


First let me say that the young turks are a-holes.

Second, although in this video he didn't act as he normally does, Barry Lynn can be an anti-religion zealot and piss a lot of people off.

That said, Gohmert is an idiotic closed-minded ideologue, that believes not only that his interpretation and beliefs are the only ones that are correct (which is his right and I have no problem with him believing that or telling people about it) but he believes that the US federal government should force his beliefs on everyone else. That I have a major problem with.

No where in the Constitution does it say anything about "separation of church and state." However, two clauses in the First Amendment guarantee freedom of religion. The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another and therefor enforces the idea of "separation of church and state."
 
Beaudreaux said:
First let me say that the young turks are a-holes.

Second, although in this video he didn't act as he normally does, Barry Lynn can be an anti-religion zealot and piss a lot of people off.

That said, Gohmert is an idiotic closed-minded ideologue, that believes not only that his interpretation and beliefs are the only ones that are correct (which is his right and I have no problem with him believing that or telling people about it) but he believes that the US federal government should force his beliefs on everyone else. That I have a major problem with.

No where in the Constitution does it say anything about "separation of church and state." However, two clauses in the First Amendment guarantee freedom of religion. The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another and therefor enforces the idea of "separation of church and state."
Click to expand...

This is I think, a key point. The words "separation of church and state" aren't found in many constitutions in the western world. Again, those exact words aren't found.
That's because that phrase: separation of church and state ; is a concept that is established through laws. Laws like not establishing a state religion. Allowing freedom of religion for all and a ban on the establishment of state places of worship.

The only Constitution in the west which flat out says that there is separation of church and state is, as far as I am aware, the Italian one. They are the only Constitution where you will find those exact words mirrored in italian and with a clear emphasis on that point. And ofc you'll find that in Italy since the govt of Italy wanted to make a clear cut point that the Vatican should stay out of Italian politics. Everywhere else, including in France which preaches positive laicism (positive laicite in French), you find a series of articles in laws or in the constitution that tells the state things like I mentioned above, no state religion, no state places of worship, no state involvement in religious affairs and no religious involvement in state affairs.

Which is why you find people, even on this forum, saying in an ignorant fashion "ah, well, there is nowhere where it states that there is separation of church and state". No, there are no such exact words in law, but that's because it's a concept.

Just like...
The concept of separation of powers in state isn't done by writing on a piece of paper "separation of powers in state". It's done by saying " the executive can do <list/>, the legislative can do <list/>, the judiciary can do <list/>" in all that complicated bureaucratic language.
 
Beaudreaux said:
First let me say that the young turks are a-holes.
Click to expand...

Maybe, probably. My view is that if you're not offending someone, somewhere, you're not really saying anything important.

That said, Gohmert is an idiotic closed-minded ideologue, that believes not only that his interpretation and beliefs are the only ones that are correct (which is his right and I have no problem with him believing that or telling people about it) but he believes that the US federal government should force his beliefs on everyone else. That I have a major problem with.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, atheists are often seen as having animosity towards religion and religious people for pointing out the buffoons who make religion look bad.
 
Rainman05 said:
This is I think, a key point. The words "separation of church and state" aren't found in many constitutions in the western world. Again, those exact words aren't found.
That's because that phrase: separation of church and state ; is a concept that is established through laws. Laws like not establishing a state religion. Allowing freedom of religion for all and a ban on the establishment of state places of worship.

The only Constitution in the west which flat out says that there is separation of church and state is, as far as I am aware, the Italian one. They are the only Constitution where you will find those exact words mirrored in italian and with a clear emphasis on that point. And ofc you'll find that in Italy since the govt of Italy wanted to make a clear cut point that the Vatican should stay out of Italian politics. Everywhere else, including in France which preaches positive laicism (positive laicite in French), you find a series of articles in laws or in the constitution that tells the state things like I mentioned above, no state religion, no state places of worship, no state involvement in religious affairs and no religious involvement in state affairs.

Which is why you find people, even on this forum, saying in an ignorant fashion "ah, well, there is nowhere where it states that there is separation of church and state". No, there are no such exact words in law, but that's because it's a concept.

Just like...
The concept of separation of powers in state isn't done by writing on a piece of paper "separation of powers in state". It's done by saying " the executive can do <list/>, the legislative can do <list/>, the judiciary can do <list/>" in all that complicated bureaucratic language.
Click to expand...

Very well said. And, to add to this, the Fourteenth Amendment's "Privileges and Immunities Clause" (No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; ...) as well as it's "Equal Protection Clause" (No state shall make or enforce any law ...; ...; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.) also prohibits a state from forming a state religion in addition to the federal government. Although, many try to argue that not only does the Constitution not say "separation of church and state" but that there is no prohibition against a state creating a state religion in the Constitution.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Very well said. And, to add to this, the Fourteenth Amendment's "Privileges and Immunities Clause" (No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; ...) as well as it's "Equal Protection Clause" (No state shall make or enforce any law ...; ...; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.) also prohibits a state from forming a state religion in addition to the federal government. Although, many try to argue that not only does the Constitution not say "separation of church and state" but that there is no prohibition against a state creating a state religion in the Constitution.
Click to expand...

Fundamentalism is scary.

I don't understand what people think would be so great to live in a theocracy. Have you seen Iran? People wanna live like Iran? Sure it won't be a islamic theocracy or god forbid... a hindu theocracy (caste system for everyone!)... it'll be a christian one but that ain't much better. You wanna go to prison for jerking off? Coz that's an offense. Wanna get killed for working on sunday? There's some really crazy stuff there in the Bible man... take that which you find good and scrap the rest in personal life. But in govt and laws... keep all that out.
 
Amadeus said:
Maybe, probably. My view is that if you're not offending someone, somewhere, you're not really saying anything important.
Click to expand...
True. I had a professor that once said that at least 20% of the people you interact with will dislike you for one reason or another and there's nothing you can do about it. I put that into a old country boy way of saying it, that if you gave a hundred dollar bill to one hundred people, at least twenty of them would bitch because it was wrinkled.

Amadeus said:
Unfortunately, atheists are often seen as having animosity towards religion and religious people for pointing out the buffoons who make religion look bad.
Click to expand...
That's not what I meant. You can call people a baffoon ad unintentionally piss off many religious people that are not bafoons, or you can allow the bafoon to do like Mark Twain said: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Gohmert has a tendency to remove all doubt almost every time he speaks.
 
Rainman05 said:
Fundamentalism is scary.

I don't understand what people think would be so great to live in a theocracy. Have you seen Iran? People wanna live like Iran? Sure it won't be a islamic theocracy or god forbid... a hindu theocracy (caste system for everyone!)... it'll be a christian one but that ain't much better. You wanna go to prison for jerking off? Coz that's an offense. Wanna get killed for working on sunday? There's some really crazy stuff there in the Bible man... take that which you find good and scrap the rest in personal life. But in govt and laws... keep all that out.
Click to expand...
I told my Congressman, a good friend and a Republican, when discussing the PPACA mandate for church based groups to provide abortion (which I am not against within reason - another topic so...) and contraception (which I agree with women having a right to buy it with their own money or insurance if their employer isn't a religious based group) against their religion, to keep the government out of my church and to damn sure keep the church out of my government.

Religious fundamentalism is the same in its end result regardless of whether it's Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Judaism or any other religion where religious law is part of the fundamental belief. A Theocracy is the surest way to kill any freedom or liberty in any society, even if that theology is atheism as was in Communist Russia.
 
Rainman05 said:
Fundamentalism is scary.

I don't understand what people think would be so great to live in a theocracy. Have you seen Iran? People wanna live like Iran? Sure it won't be a islamic theocracy or god forbid... a hindu theocracy (caste system for everyone!)... it'll be a christian one but that ain't much better. You wanna go to prison for jerking off? Coz that's an offense. Wanna get killed for working on sunday? There's some really crazy stuff there in the Bible man... take that which you find good and scrap the rest in personal life. But in govt and laws... keep all that out.
Click to expand...
The fundamentalism is a push-back against secularism. A simple ebb and flow to maintain a balance. ( at least in a rational country)
 
Beaudreaux said:
True. I had a professor that once said that at least 20% of the people you interact with will dislike you for one reason or another and there's nothing you can do about it. I put that into a old country boy way of saying it, that if you gave a hundred dollar bill to one hundred people, at least twenty of them would bitch because it was wrinkled.

That's not what I meant. You can call people a baffoon ad unintentionally piss off many religious people that are not bafoons, or you can allow the bafoon to do like Mark Twain said: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Gohmert has a tendency to remove all doubt almost every time he speaks.
Click to expand...

I know, I was just making a side-point about atheists.
 
WCH said:
The fundamentalism is a push-back against secularism. A simple ebb and flow to maintain a balance. ( at least in a rational country)
Click to expand...

I respectfully beg to differ here. In a secular society, sectarian beliefs can exist; however, in a sectarian society (religious fundamentalism) secular thought is ostracized, pushed out and/or prosecuted by religious law.
 
Beaudreaux said:
I respectfully beg to differ here. In a secular society, sectarian beliefs can exist; however, in a sectarian society (religious fundamentalism) secular thought is ostracized, pushed out and/or prosecuted by religious law.
Click to expand...

Right, that's why I said 'balance'. IMO, we have gotten away from the founding (Biblical) principles that made this country great.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom