U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: ATHEISM IS RELIGION

beefheart · Jun 16, 2014

ludin said:
Sorry we live in a free society where people are allowed to speak their own opinion. If you dont' want to hear what people say then go somewhere else they have a right to speak whatever they want as long as it doesn't cause physical damage to someone or someone's property.

Religious discrimination and bigotry is against the law did you know that?

If i choose to pray in public who are you to say otherwise? you are no one.

Religious bigotry a live and well.

You are allowed to believe what you want. what you don't get to do is restrict other people that believe differently just because you don't like it.
i think you have bigger personal issues if you find that someone praying to something you don't believe in offends you that much.

for someone who claims God doesn't exist you sure are offended by it a great deal. pretty much logical insanity.

i don't believe in a mythical non-existant God but at the same time i am offended by that same mythical non-existant God.
so how can you be offended by something you claim doesn't exist? logically this makes 0 sense.

i find it abhorrent that people like you claim to be tolerant and open minded but are the exact opposite of what you claim to be.

Are you aware that there are 7 states in the US that prohibit atheists from running for office? AK,MD,MS,NC,SC,TN,TX. Such tolerance.

Anti reason bigotry is alive and well.

mbig · Jun 16, 2014

Cable said:
That isn't what I said, is it? I said the big 4 were being back-burnered in favor of LIBERAL indoctrination. I did not suggest at any point that the schools should make more time for God. Just the opposite. I indicated they should make more time for the big 4.

You whined about the limiting of god in the schools

"You'd be hard pressed to show the schools as a success in anything other than a liberal indoctrination camp, limiting God as much as possible while allowing all kinds of other stuff that has nothing to do with the 4 things above.".."

Cable said:
There is but one God.

LOL. Proof? Evidence?
You clearly mean Self-Indoctrinated.

Cable said:
I was raised by atheist liberals. Odd that I turned out to be a conservative Christian. This seems to fly in the face of your assumption.

That's called an anecdote (fallacy) and doesn't even address (much less refute) the Truth of what I said. Poor form, but necessary compartmentalization for 'believers'.
Congrats!

Cable · Jun 16, 2014

mbig said:
You whined about the limiting of god in the schools

"You'd be hard pressed to show the schools as a success in anything other than a liberal indoctrination camp, limiting God as much as possible while allowing all kinds of other stuff that has nothing to do with the 4 things above.".."

LOL. Proof? Evidence?
You clearly mean Self-Indoctrinated.

That's called an anecdote (fallacy) and doesn't even address (much less refute) the Truth of what I said. Poor form, but necessary compartmentalization for 'believers'.
Congrats!

You guys are all smoke and mirrors. You stayed pretty far away from my main point, but I don't blame you there. You'd rather chase down your Pavlovian talking points. Smoke.
You could take my anecdotal example and do a study, but that wouldn't help your cause, would it?
The true indoctrination is happening in the school systems. Now it would be interesting to see how many of the liberal students the schools churn out become conservatives when they get a chance to see how life actually works.
But again, this study wouldn't offer much funding, so it's probably left on the table.

mbig · Jun 16, 2014

Cable said:
You guys are all smoke and mirrors. You stayed pretty far away from my main point, but I don't blame you there. You'd rather chase down your Pavlovian talking points. Smoke.
You could take my anecdotal example and do a study, but that wouldn't help your cause, would it?
The true indoctrination is happening in the school systems. Now it would be interesting to see how many of the liberal students the schools churn out become conservatives when they get a chance to see how life actually works.
But again, this study wouldn't offer much funding, so it's probably left on the table.

IOW, Cable just WHIFFED on all issues presented/he was busted on.
"smoke and mirrors" indeed.

(EDIT and Again below.
Cable has NO proof or even Evidence for 'one god' or any god, NO refutation of my true generalization of religion being a function of geography more than Truth, etc)
If one knows how to debate, I find it only takes two posts! to bring the debate to 'irreducible complexity'/expose the False Premise of believers. It's necssarily in there.
Then they Bail.

Cable · Jun 16, 2014

mbig said:
IOW, Cable just WHIFFED on all issues presented/he was busted on.
"smoke and mirrors" indeed.

Didn't I say you guys both strayed from my main point? I whiffed? OK. The reality of the liberal atheist is indeed an amazing paradigm.

RabidAlpaca · Jun 16, 2014

Cable said:
Aren't you liberals the ones crying about not allowing any Godly influence in our societies? I'm just stating the facts. We have any number of lawsuits in progress against the schools for unduly limiting faith items in the schools.
It's just that the liberals want their cake and eat it too, but Christians are not foolish about all this.

I noticed your signature. It must really tweak you that Christ is our King and High Priest. ?

Now you're calling me a liberal? Really? I guess anyone who doesn't worship christ and despise evolution is a liberal to you simpler folk.

And no, it doesn't "tweak" me that "christ" is your "king" and "high priest", because he's dead and not god. If you can prove otherwise, please present your facts and evidence. You're playing the typical christian victim routine. If we don't let you force your religion on other people you throw a god damn hissy fit and accuse us of all being oppressive liberals trying to kill off christians. Grow up a bit.

mbig said:
IOW, Cable just WHIFFED on all issues presented/he was busted on.
"smoke and mirrors" indeed.

If one knows how to debate, I find it only takes two posts to bring the debate to 'irreducible complexity'/expose the False Premise of believers. It's always in there.
Then they Bail.
(EDIT and Again below.
Cable has NO proof or even Evidence for 'one god' or any god, NO refutation of my true generalization of religion being a function of geography more than Truth, etc)

Cable isn't even trying to provide proof or evidence. He's only here to lob insults at people who don't worship the same god he does. Apparently we're all liberal christian killers.

Cable said:
You guys are all smoke and mirrors. You stayed pretty far away from my main point, but I don't blame you there. You'd rather chase down your Pavlovian talking points. Smoke.
You could take my anecdotal example and do a study, but that wouldn't help your cause, would it?
The true indoctrination is happening in the school systems. Now it would be interesting to see how many of the liberal students the schools churn out become conservatives when they get a chance to see how life actually works.
But again, this study wouldn't offer much funding, so it's probably left on the table.

We'd love to destroy your main point if you had one. All you've done so far is mindlessly ramble about how all schools are liberal brainwashers trying to make kids atheists. Doesn't it embarrass you that the more educated someone becomes the less likely they are to be religious? It MUST be the liberal professors brainwashing them all!

Cable · Jun 16, 2014

RabidAlpaca said:
Now you're calling me a liberal? Really? I guess anyone who doesn't worship christ and despise evolution is a liberal to you simpler folk.

And no, it doesn't "tweak" me that "christ" is your "king" and "high priest", because he's dead and not god. If you can prove otherwise, please present your facts and evidence. You're playing the typical christian victim routine. If we don't let you force your religion on other people you throw a god damn hissy fit and accuse us of all being oppressive liberals trying to kill off christians. Grow up a bit.

Cable isn't even trying to provide proof or evidence. He's only here to lob insults at people who don't worship the same god he does. Apparently we're all liberal christian killers.

We'd love to destroy your main point if you had one. All you've done so far is mindlessly ramble about how all schools are liberal brainwashers trying to make kids atheists. Doesn't it embarrass you that the more educated someone becomes the less likely they are to be religious? It MUST be the liberal professors brainwashing them all!

Libertarians can be either conservative or quite liberal. If you don't consider yourself liberal, ok.
Schools these days are liberal, and public schools tend to be very liberal. My brother has 4 kids in school and I hear the stories. But more than this, it's in the news everywhere.
Again, there are so many lawsuits in this regard. It is not anecdotal.

One day you will know whether Christ is dead or alive. It isn't on me to prove it to anyone. It's on you to figure it out for yourself. You have ample evidence if you will heed it.

No, it does not embarrass me that the more educated tend to be atheist. This also applies to the more wealthy. They feel they don't need God, and can handle things themselves.
Why would it embarrass me?
There are plenty of educated thinkers who believe. It isn't about education, except in the mind of the atheist. Atheists have a tendency to believe in the end humans will figure everything out and eventually BE god.
I on the other hand am a realist. I see what humans do every day. On the whole, we are further from the truth, not closer.

ludin · Jun 16, 2014

beefheart said:
Are you aware that there are 7 states in the US that prohibit atheists from running for office? AK,MD,MS,NC,SC,TN,TX. Such tolerance.

Anti reason bigotry is alive and well.

however to my knowledge none of these statues have ever been used if you have evidence that they have the please provide it. there are still a ton of laws on the books that they never actually took off. some of them are quite interesting. google silly state laws.

Otherwise this is just irrelevent as the laws are not enforced. in fact the SCOTUS has ruled that there cannot be a religious test to run for public office.
so the laws on the books are invalidated they just never took them off.

so your point is irrelevent.

if an atheist cant' get elected into office then well he evidently didn't connect with enough voters.

i know plenty of atheists that act better than some christians do. we agree to disagree and we respect each others views and opinions
I also know that there are those extreme atheist that seem to exist here. they don't want people throwing their views in their face but have no problem doing it themselves.

RabidAlpaca · Jun 16, 2014

Cable said:
Libertarians can be either conservative or quite liberal. If you don't consider yourself liberal, ok.
Schools these days are liberal, and public schools tend to be very liberal. My brother has 4 kids in school and I hear the stories. But more than this, it's in the news everywhere.
Again, there are so many lawsuits in this regard. It is not anecdotal.

One day you will know whether Christ is dead or alive. It isn't on me to prove it to anyone. It's on you to figure it out for yourself. You have ample evidence if you will heed it.

No, it does not embarrass me that the more educated tend to be atheist. This also applies to the more wealthy. They feel they don't need God, and can handle things themselves.
Why would it embarrass me?
There are plenty of educated thinkers who believe. It isn't about education, except in the mind of the atheist. Atheists have a tendency to believe in the end humans will figure everything out and eventually BE god.
I on the other hand am a realist. I see what humans do every day. On the whole, we are further from the truth, not closer.

Of course, to you, every step towards scientific progress and tolerance in our society is a step away from your 2,000 year old religious doctrine, so you despise it. I don't know any atheist that thinks that we'll someday become super human, omnipotent gods. If you can provide a source for that I'd appreciate it.

Listen, cable, about schools and liberalism... Teaching kids to tolerate each other is not liberal propaganda, it's called not being a dick. You can't stand that homosexuals are getting tolerance and equal treatment so you throw a hissy fit and talk about liberal indoctrination. What exactly are the liberal conspirators in the class room doing to our kids?

And no, I will not one day find out whether christ is dead or alive, and do you know why? Because I'll be dead. If you have any evidence to prove that won't be case, please present it.

Lethargic Aptitude · Jun 16, 2014

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- X FACTOR:

Regarding the portion of your above comment that I bolded in purple, there is no such thing as a "simple non belief" in God. Non-belief in God is a religious position, whether it is said in a pleasant manner, as you asserted in the portion that I bolded in purple, or whether it is fervently debated.

Non-belief in God is of overwhelming importance to the atheist. Atheists are so consumed by the belief that there is no Jehovah that they show up in just about every Religion forum that I have ever been at--and I have been to dozens. They show up arguing atheist theology aka evolution myth, while insisting that our fine-tuned universe happened by accident. That, along with their preoccupation with trying to prove the Judeo-Christian Bible is fallible.

Any belief that is of overwhelming importance to a person is, in and of itself, defined as "religion." Notice definition #5 below.

DEFINITION OF "RELIGION":

Collins
World English Dictionary
religion (rɪˈlɪdʒən)

— n
1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief: the Christian religion
3. the attitude and feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers
4. chiefly RC Church the way of life determined by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience entered upon by monks, friars, and nuns: to enter religion
5. something of overwhelming importance to a person: football is his religion
6. archaic
a. the practice of sacred ritual observances
b. sacred rites and ceremonies

Bwhahahahaha!

beefheart · Jun 16, 2014

ludin said:
however to my knowledge none of these statues have ever been used if you have evidence that they have the please provide it. there are still a ton of laws on the books that they never actually took off. some of them are quite interesting. google silly state laws.

Otherwise this is just irrelevent as the laws are not enforced. in fact the SCOTUS has ruled that there cannot be a religious test to run for public office.
so the laws on the books are invalidated they just never took them off.

so your point is irrelevent.

if an atheist cant' get elected into office then well he evidently didn't connect with enough voters.

i know plenty of atheists that act better than some christians do. we agree to disagree and we respect each others views and opinions
I also know that there are those extreme atheist that seem to exist here. they don't want people throwing their views in their face but have no problem doing it themselves.

Not irrelevant, they are examples of governments making religious/non religious laws. And the folks in those state legislatures sure aren't doing much to repeal those laws. I don't see the christians standing up in those states to repeal that...because they agree with it...

Gaius46 · Jun 16, 2014

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Atheism is Religion according to the 1961 Torcaso v. Watkins case that was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court--the highest court in the land--where court rulings become national law. As recently as 2005, the Wisconsin Federal Court ruling on the matter of Kaufman v. McCaughtry again ruled that Atheism is Religion. In spite of the many court rulings along that line, members of the Religion of Atheism insist they are not religious. They attempt to take the higher ground by insisting that Christians are mental midgets for being religious and for believing in a "non-existent sky gawd."

Atheist religionists often refer to the Judeo-Christian Bible as a book of fairytales. At one website where I have debated, the Bible was referred to by atheists as the "BuyBull." Not only that, in most of my conversations with atheists at various websites, their usual accusation is that because of the belief in God, theists have committed all sorts of human rights violations in the name of "cultish religions." According to the many atheists I have debated at other websites, it is the belief in God that has caused people to commit the various atrocities common to sinful mankind. Remove religion, belief in God, and belief in the Bible--the atheists frequently argue--and the world will be a better place. This latter conclusion is mortally flawed for the following reasons:

1. Atheism is itself a religion.

2. Atheists have committed human rights violations en masse throughout history. For instance, Joseph Stalin--the atheist--ordered the deaths of between 40 million to 62 million people (20 million of whom were everyday Soviet civilians). Compare that to the 9 million or so killed by Adolph Hitler, the Roman Catholic who merely claimed he was a Christian.

In reality, the problem is not the Bible or God. The problem is false religions that have failed to teach the masses Biblical truths. Blaming God for the crimes of people whose behaviors he himself reject is an attempt at passing the buck.

"See! This only I have found, that the true God made mankind upright, but THEY THEMSELVES have sought out many plans." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. Considering that atheists have themselves committed human rights violations under the banner of non-bellief in a supernatural God or gods, why can one argue that "belief in god" is not the actual reason behind crimes against humanity?

2. Atheists routinely argue they do not belong to a religion. According to them, non-belief in God is proof positive that they are not religious. Do you agree with the atheists' position? Why so or why not?

3. Based upon numerous court rulings that Atheism is Religion, it is obvious that belief in a supernatural God or gods is not a requirement for being considered part of a religion. What arguments can you present along this line?

Torcaso v Watkins said no such thing. What it did say, among other things, was that religious tests for holding public office were unconstitutional.

mbig · Jun 16, 2014

Cable said:
...

One day you will know whether Christ is dead or alive. It isn't on me to prove it to anyone. It's on you to figure it out for yourself. You have ample evidence if you will heed it.
.......
I on the other hand am a realist...

But is "Is on you."
This is DEBATEpolitics, not Pulpitpatronization.
If you cannot support your arguments, only prophesize/pontificate, then....
ie
How bout if I say President Spaghetti Monster was better than Lincoln or Washington and tell You "one day you'll know I'm right."

That's why, I think, you see wiser believers not posting much here. They realize that their view (aka faith) is Not a tangible/supportable one and don't bother trying to debate it.

ludin · Jun 16, 2014

beefheart said:
Not irrelevant, they are examples of governments making religious/non religious laws. And the folks in those state legislatures sure aren't doing much to repeal those laws. I don't see the christians standing up in those states to repeal that...because they agree with it...

yes they are irrelevant provide proof that any of them have been enforced. they are irrelevent because the SCOTUS has ruled that there is not a faith test to run for public office.
they don't need to repeal them as they have already been rule irrelevant and are non-enforcable.

they don't need to repeal something that is no enforcable. the SCOTUS ruled them unconstitutional a while back ago.

but continue ranting about nothing.

ludin · Jun 16, 2014

mbig said:
But is "Is on you."
This is DEBATEpolitics, not Pulpitpatronization.
If you cannot support your arguments, only prophesize/pontificate, then....
ie
How bout if I say President Spaghetti Monster was better than Lincoln or Washington and tell You "one day you'll know I'm right."

That's why, I think, you see wiser believers not posting much here. They realize that their view (aka faith) is Not a tangible/supportable one and don't bother trying to debate it.

Religion is based on faith. There really isn't anything to prove. you either believe it or not. For people that do believe they have seen enough and or heard the word of God call to them. They accepted.

Unless you want to call them a liar and a fraud and provide evidence that their experiences are just that then you don't have much to refute. That is why the Christians most powerful evidence is their testimony. the only way to challenge someone's personal testimony is to call them a liar and provide evidence showing that they are lieing.

using faulty analogy fallacies like the FSM shows how far a stretch you really have to go to in order to try and say God doesn't exist.

The one of the main proofs of his existence is Christ own testimony of God which has been historically documented.

mbig · Jun 16, 2014

ludin said:
Religion is based on faith. There really isn't anything to prove. you either believe it or not. For people that do believe they have seen enough and or heard the word of God call to them. They accepted.

Unless you want to call them a liar and a fraud and provide evidence that their experiences are just that then you don't have much to refute. That is why the Christians most powerful evidence is their testimony. the only way to challenge someone's personal testimony is to call them a liar and provide evidence showing that they are lieing.

Goofy Shifting the Burden Fallacy as well as Inapt comparison.

You claim there's god: You must at least provide evidence.
Faith in god (Only Your god while joining us in Rejecting ALL Others) is NOT evidence of God. It's evidence of Your state of mind.
It's only Real value, in fact, is that it is PROOF that Most [other] believers in different gods across the globe are necessarily wrong/Deluded if not the inapt word "lying". All are obviously myopic and Most likely all are wrong.
ALL evidence points to man creating gods, Hundreds of thousands of them.

Ludin said:
using faulty analogy fallacies like the FSM shows how far a stretch you really have to go to in order to try and say God doesn't exist.

FSM is as good as any.
Mebbe better.

Ludin said:
The one of the main Proofs of his existence is Christ own testimony of God which has been historically documented.

DOH!

Circular Reasoning

CIRCULAR REASONING
circulus in demonstrando
......
Description: A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a Circle in reasoning where NO Useful information is being shared.
This Fallacy is often quite Humorous.
......
Example #2:

The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.

Explanation: This is a very serious circular argument on which many people base their entire lives.
This is like getting an e-mail from a Nigerian prince, offering to give you his Billion dollar fortune -- but only after you wire him a “good will” offering of $50,000. Of course, you are skeptical until you read the final line in the e-mail that reads “I, prince Nubadola, assure you that this is my message, and it is legitimate. You can trust this e-mail and any others that come from me.” Now you know it is legitimate... because it says so in the e-mail.

ludin · Jun 16, 2014

mbig said:
Goofy Shifting the Burden Fallacy as well as Inapt comparison.

You claim there's god: You must at least provide evidence.
Faith in god (Only Your god while joining us in Rejecting ALL Others) is NOT evidence of God. It's evidence of Your state of mind.
It's only Real value, in fact, is that it is PROOF that Most [other] believers in different gods across the globe are necessarily wrong/Deluded if not the inapt word "lying". All are obviously myopic and Most likely all are wrong.

there is no shifting of proof. my word and my experience is my testimony. if you wish to refute that then it is up to you to provide some kind of evidence that i am lying.
I don't have to provide evidence for a belief. a belief and a statement of faith does not have the same requirements as statements of fact.

i have faith and believe that God exists and that Christ was His Son that came to earth and died for my sins. That i am saved and born again and that it is Christ that lives within me and is a part of my life. You don't have to that is perfectly fine.

ALL evidence points to man creating gods, Hundreds of thousands of them.

This is true throught history man has created Gods. Jesus on the other hand was evidence of God man flesh. we have historically documented evidence that backs exactly who he said he was. People saw him die and over 500 people were documented seeing him after his death and burial.

FSM is as good as any.
Mebbe better.

If you want to continue using logical fallacies be my guest it has no bearing on anything.

DOH!

Circular Reasoning

FAIL

CIRCULAR REASONING
circulus in demonstrando
......
Description: A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a Circle in reasoning where NO Useful information is being shared.
This Fallacy is often quite Humorous.
......
Example #2:

The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.

Explanation: This is a very serious circular argument on which many people base their entire lives.
This is like getting an e-mail from a Nigerian prince, offering to give you his Billion dollar fortune -- but only after you wire him a “good will” offering of $50,000. Of course, you are skeptical until you read the final line in the e-mail that reads “I, prince Nubadola, assure you that this is my message, and it is legitimate. You can trust this e-mail and any others that come from me.” Now you know it is legitimate... because it says so in the e-mail.

[/QUOTE]

actually it is this definition that is the failure. The bible is a historical accurate book on the life of the man of Christ and his disciples. it then goes on to other documents of His life and eventual death. Christ own documentation of what he says given witness to the fact that there is a God.

it gives witness to the fact that Christ was who he said that he was.

there is no circular argument there at all. it is nothing like a chain email scasm that is ludicrious. at least we know the lowest level of logic you will use lol to funny.

mbig · Jun 16, 2014

ludin said:
there is no shifting of proof. my word and my experience is my testimony. if you wish to refute that then it is up to you to provide some kind of evidence that i am lying.

And if you SAID you saw Pink Elephant on your last Binge, I would belive too.
So?

Ludin said:
I don't have to provide evidence for a belief. a belief and a statement of faith does not have the same requirements as statements of fact.

Duh, Duh,.. you're right!
But if you claim there's an Actual OBJECT OF that belief, then you do.

Ludin said:
i have faith and believe that God exists and that Christ was His Son that came to earth and died for my sins. That i am saved and born again and that it is Christ that lives within me and is a part of my life. You don't have to that is perfectly fine.

That's nice. Again, just don't confuse your "faith" with the planet's Reality.

Ludin said:
This is true throught history man has created Gods. Jesus on the other hand was evidence of God man flesh. we have historically documented evidence that backs exactly who he said he was. People saw him die and over 500 people were documented seeing him after his death and burial.

See my last.
that is the same OBTUSE CIRCULAR reasoning.
The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.
You have ZERO real historical proof Jesus was a god, or of ANY other Spaghetti Monster

Ludin said:
actually it is this definition that is the failure. The bible is a historical accurate book on the life of the man of Christ and his disciples. it then goes on to other documents of His life and eventual death. Christ own documentation of what he says given witness to the fact that there is a God
it gives witness to the fact that Christ was who he said that he was.
there is no circular argument there at all.

You Just repeat the DEFINITION OF Circular reasoning while saying it Isn't.
Like an 8 Year old just saying "No it isn't".
This is your Nonsensical and Juvenile-in-Denial Method in all strings. "no".
The very Example they gave IS YOUR goofy argument!

Circular Reasoning

CIRCULAR REASONING
circulus in demonstrando
......
Description: A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a Circle in reasoning where NO Useful information is being shared.
This Fallacy is often quite Humorous.
......
Example #2:

The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.

Explanation: This is a very serious Circular argument on which many people base their entire lives.
This is like getting an e-mail from a Nigerian prince, offering to give you his billion dollar fortune -- but only after you wire him a “good will” offering of $50,000. Of course, you are skeptical until you read the final line in the e-mail that reads “I, prince Nubadola, assure you that this is my message, and it is legitimate. You can trust this e-mail and any others that come from me.” Now you know it is legitimate... because it says so in the e-mail.

RogueWarrior · Jun 16, 2014

Cable said:
Political views and ethics spring from our beliefs about the world. Our beliefs about the world give rise to a personal morality.
Unbelief or non-belief lead to a personal morality based on unbelief.
Unbelievers vote their world view (ethics based on unbelief) onto Christians, all the while asking that we don't vote our moral and/or political views onto them.
It is hypocritical.

What is an unbeliever's worldview?
What the %$$^ is ethics based on unbelief.?

What is an unbeliever's political view?
What is an unbeliever's morality?

You make some strange statements without really explaining what you mean, so could you please elaborate?

ludin · Jun 16, 2014

mbig said:
And if you SAID you saw Pink Elephant on your last Binge, I would belive too.
So?

It is possible people see weird things when they are that drunk. in any event. that is not an argument to what i said.

Duh, Duh,.. you're right!
But if you claim there's an Actual OBJECT OF that belief, then you do.

My claims are matters of belief and of faith since that is where the bible stems from. So no i don't.

That's nice. Again, just don't confuse your "faith" with the planet's Reality.

I don't confuse anything thanks.

See my last.
that is the same OBTUSE CIRCULAR reasoning.
The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.
You have ZERO real historical proof Jesus was a god, or of ANY other Spaghetti Monster

Actually we have historical evidence that Christ was who He claimed to be.

You Just repeat the DEFINITION OF Circular reasoning while saying it Isn't.
Like an 8 Year old just saying "No".
This is your Nonsensical and Juvenile-in-Denial Method.
Circular Reasoning

CIRCULAR REASONING
circulus in demonstrando
......
Description: A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a Circle in reasoning where NO Useful information is being shared.
This Fallacy is often quite Humorous.
......
Example #2:

The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.

Explanation: This is a very serious circular argument on which many people base their entire lives.
This is like getting an e-mail from a Nigerian prince, offering to give you his billion dollar fortune -- but only after you wire him a “good will” offering of $50,000. Of course, you are skeptical until you read the final line in the e-mail that reads “I, prince Nubadola, assure you that this is my message, and it is legitimate. You can trust this e-mail and any others that come from me.” Now you know it is legitimate... because it says so in the e-mail.

You can believe what you want. your logical fallacies are that the SFM and God are the same they aren't and trying to compare them is a logical fallacy of it's own.

The bible is a historically accurate document. It has been proven as much by people much more educated than me or you that are experts in the field.
It is routinly used by archologists and other historians to find cities and other places.

mbig · Jun 16, 2014

mbig said:
And if you SAID you saw Pink Elephant on your last Binge, I would believe too.
So?

Ludin said:
It is possible people see weird things when they are that drunk. in any event. that is not an argument to what i said.

Yes it is an argument. Billions of other people see Different 'gods' than you do.
Are they 'Lying'? or just Similarly Deluded?

mbig said:
Duh, Duh,.. you're right!
But if you claim there's an Actual OBJECT OF that belief, then you do.

Ludin said:
My claims are matters of belief and of faith since that is where the bible stems from. So no i don't.

Yes you Do.
This is DEBATEpolitics.
You claim something, YOUR burden to support it.
You can believe anything uncontested, but if you claim there's an Actual Object of that Faith, you gotta produce.
(something Besides the Jesus-Bible-Jesus-Bible-Jesus Circle)

mbig said:
That's nice. Again, just don't confuse your "faith" with the planet's Reality.

Ludin said:
don't confuse anything thanks.

You confuse everything and all your responses are Dishonest as well.
You just talk nonsense intentionally ... in defense of your Fire God.

mbig said:
See my last.
that is the same OBTUSE CIRCULAR reasoning.
"The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.
You have ZERO real historical proof Jesus was a god, or of ANY other Spaghetti Monster

Ludin said:
Actually we have historical evidence that Christ was who He claimed to be.

We have ZERO evidence except the Your Dishonest Circular BS.
You have yet to provide any REAL Extra-Biblical anything.

mbig said:
You Just repeat the DEFINITION OF Circular reasoning while saying it Isn't.
Like an 8 Year old just saying "No".
This is your Nonsensical and Juvenile-in-Denial Method.
Circular Reasoning

CIRCULAR REASONING
circulus in demonstrando
......
Description: A type of reasoning in which the Proposition is Supported by the Premises, which is Supported by the Proposition, creating a Circle in reasoning where NO Useful information is being shared.

This Fallacy is often quite Humorous.
......
Example #2:

The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible.

Explanation: This is a very serious circular argument on which many people base their entire lives.
This is like getting an e-mail from a Nigerian prince, offering to give you his billion dollar fortune -- but only after you wire him a “good will” offering of $50,000. Of course, you are skeptical until you read the final line in the e-mail that reads “I, prince Nubadola, assure you that this is my message, and it is legitimate. You can trust this e-mail and any others that come from me.” Now you know it is legitimate... because it says so in the e-mail.

Ludin said:
You can believe what you want. your logical fallacies are that the SFM and God are the same they aren't and trying to compare them is a logical fallacy of it's own.
The bible is a historically accurate document. It has been proven as much by people much more educated than me or you that are experts in the field.
It is routinly used by archologists and other historians to find cities and other places.

So you just continue with Laughable Circular reasoning while LYING it isn't.
"The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible."

You present no debate at all, just Persistent/Textbook Circular Reasoning and Lying about it.
Your posts are a Discredit to all Sober believers as well as a childish insult to logic.
"The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible."

beefheart · Jun 16, 2014

ludin said:
yes they are irrelevant provide proof that any of them have been enforced. they are irrelevent because the SCOTUS has ruled that there is not a faith test to run for public office.
they don't need to repeal them as they have already been rule irrelevant and are non-enforcable.

they don't need to repeal something that is no enforcable. the SCOTUS ruled them unconstitutional a while back ago.

but continue ranting about nothing.

Why were they passed?

Bigotry, exactly what you claim of atheists...

KokomoJojo · Jun 16, 2014

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Atheism is Religion according to the 1961 Torcaso v. Watkins case that was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court--the highest court in the land--where court rulings become national law. As recently as 2005, the Wisconsin Federal Court ruling on the matter of Kaufman v. McCaughtry again ruled that Atheism is Religion. In spite of the many court rulings along that line, members of the Religion of Atheism insist they are not religious. They attempt to take the higher ground by insisting that Christians are mental midgets for being religious and for believing in a "non-existent sky gawd."

Atheist religionists often refer to the Judeo-Christian Bible as a book of fairytales. At one website where I have debated, the Bible was referred to by atheists as the "BuyBull." Not only that, in most of my conversations with atheists at various websites, their usual accusation is that because of the belief in God, theists have committed all sorts of human rights violations in the name of "cultish religions." According to the many atheists I have debated at other websites, it is the belief in God that has caused people to commit the various atrocities common to sinful mankind. Remove religion, belief in God, and belief in the Bible--the atheists frequently argue--and the world will be a better place. This latter conclusion is mortally flawed for the following reasons:

1. Atheism is itself a religion.

2. Atheists have committed human rights violations en masse throughout history. For instance, Joseph Stalin--the atheist--ordered the deaths of between 40 million to 62 million people (20 million of whom were everyday Soviet civilians). Compare that to the 9 million or so killed by Adolph Hitler, the Roman Catholic who merely claimed he was a Christian.

In reality, the problem is not the Bible or God. The problem is false religions that have failed to teach the masses Biblical truths. Blaming God for the crimes of people whose behaviors he himself reject is an attempt at passing the buck.

"See! This only I have found, that the true God made mankind upright, but THEY THEMSELVES have sought out many plans." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. Considering that atheists have themselves committed human rights violations under the banner of non-bellief in a supernatural God or gods, why can one argue that "belief in god" is not the actual reason behind crimes against humanity?

2. Atheists routinely argue they do not belong to a religion. According to them, non-belief in God is proof positive that they are not religious. Do you agree with the atheists' position? Why so or why not?

3. Based upon numerous court rulings that Atheism is Religion, it is obvious that belief in a supernatural God or gods is not a requirement for being considered part of a religion. What arguments can you present along this line?

reduced to the fewest possible words "religion is acting upon a belief".

now if you want to kick atheist ass around the block a few times just keep in mind that "disbelief" is the "belief" that god does not exist. Hence atheism is in fact a religion.

Now we can take that a step further to its logical conclusion, that which all those black robed assholes on the hill know and are carefully wordsmithing their rulings to protect their weeenies and the existence of state, that 99.9% of all statutes et al created by the state and federal legislatures are also a religion. I have a thread somewhere explaining that you have no right to "exercise" your religion, only "state" approved religion.

cheers!

Cable · Jun 16, 2014

RabidAlpaca said:
Of course, to you, every step towards scientific progress and tolerance in our society is a step away from your 2,000 year old religious doctrine, so you despise it. I don't know any atheist that thinks that we'll someday become super human, omnipotent gods. If you can provide a source for that I'd appreciate it.

Listen, cable, about schools and liberalism... Teaching kids to tolerate each other is not liberal propaganda, it's called not being a dick. You can't stand that homosexuals are getting tolerance and equal treatment so you throw a hissy fit and talk about liberal indoctrination. What exactly are the liberal conspirators in the class room doing to our kids?

And no, I will not one day find out whether Christ is dead or alive, and do you know why? Because I'll be dead. If you have any evidence to prove that won't be case, please present it.

Why do you constantly have to tell me what I think? You don't know what I can stand and can't stand.
Do you tolerate pedophiles? Maybe they were born that way too. They just need understanding and tolerance.

You talk about tolerance, when your tag line talks about strangling kings with the entrails of priests.
If you were a true scientific advocate you'd not say you will never know whether Christ is dead or not. Your mind isn't any more open than the ones you think are intolerant.
It seems your world hangs on what can be proven empirically. Can you show empirically that this is the best way to go?

mbig · Jun 16, 2014

KokomoJojo said:
reduced to the fewest possible words "religion is acting upon a belief".

now if you want to kick atheist ass around the block a few times just keep in mind that "disbelief" is the "belief" that god does not exist.
Hence atheism is in fact a religion...

Oh you are SO smart!
DOH!
So you are a 'religion' if you do NOT believe in Astrology? Alchemy?
What 'religion' is that?
DOH!

U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: ATHEISM IS RELIGION

beefheart

Ice Cream for Crow?

mbig

onomatopoeic

Cable

mbig

onomatopoeic

Cable

RabidAlpaca

Engineer

Cable

ludin

RabidAlpaca

Engineer

Lethargic Aptitude

Political Parties = Corruption

beefheart

Ice Cream for Crow?

Gaius46

mbig

onomatopoeic

ludin

ludin

mbig

onomatopoeic

ludin

mbig

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RogueWarrior

ludin

mbig

onomatopoeic

beefheart

Ice Cream for Crow?

KokomoJojo

Cable

mbig

onomatopoeic