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Why avoid considering God as noted?

Cable

Cable

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I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
 
Cable said:
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
Click to expand...

I look at The Bible as being a book of parables. I believe in God and the Holy Trinity. But I'm a pick-and-chooser when it comes to The Bible.
 
Many atheists remind me of The Borg; religion is irrelevant. They want you to believe there are only scientific (physical) explanations for everything. Anything spiritual must be cleansed from the Earth.
 
American said:
Many atheists remind me of The Borg; religion is irrelevant. They want you to believe there are only scientific (physical) explanations for everything. Anything spiritual must be cleansed from the Earth.
Click to expand...

And how is that different than Christians who want you to only believe THEIR god exists and we must follow biblical law?
 
TheNextEra said:
And how is that different than Christians who want you to only believe THEIR god exists and we must follow biblical law?
Click to expand...

There were many Christians involved in setting up the American government, I don't see anything in there about following Biblical law.
 
Cable said:
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
Click to expand...

The reason is quite simple. The stories in the bible were written by man. Now, you can claim that the stories were written with influence from God or whatever, but you cannot escape the simple fact that they were written by man. And as such, those stories carry the bias of man. Even how the stories in the bible were selected has bias from man.

Sorry, but given those things, there is no reason for me to believe the Christian God is real. Now, could there be a god or god(s)? Absoultely which is why I'm an agnostic, but to claim I lack reason because I don't believe in a man-made religion is just as absurd to me.
 
American said:
There were many Christians involved in setting up the American government, I don't see anything in there about following Biblical law.
Click to expand...

What's the main reasons given for SSM to be illegal? Because it's against the bible.
 
Cable said:
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your argument is. Is it that the Bible is literally true, or that other religious beliefs shouldn't be given equal consideration?
 
Cable said:
a) I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
Click to expand...
`
I happen to believe in the concept of a supreme or primordial divinity, but not the Abrahamic construct as presented in organized religion. There are many spiritual beliefs that are aside from the mainstream narrative, that are centuries old. They believe/have faith in a supernatural and transcendental force exists, not as an alternative to the Judeo/Christian/Islamic, but something far apart from that.

Truth is a subjective concept and varies from person to person. It is a mistake for the Abrahamic faiths to assume theirs is the only metaphysical truism around.
 
Cable said:
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Click to expand...
I think this misses the reason why people are curious about the world. Remember that there are lots of Christian scientists - scientists aren't trying to find an 'alternative' explanation, but rather we are trying to find any explanation! Just saying "God did it" is not a satisfying explanation to the curious, even if you believe it to be true. Christian scientists are trying to work out how God did it. On the other hand, non-Christian scientists are simply investigating how something happened.

Both Christians and non-Christians are interested in the mechanisms of how our universe has come to be. The only difference is that Christians expect there to be a Prime Mover at the end of the chain, whereas atheists do not.

EDIT: although I may have misread your OP - I assumed 'the narrative' referrs to 'how the universe came to be', not Biblical narrative...
 
TheNextEra said:
What's the main reasons given for SSM to be illegal? Because it's against the bible.
Click to expand...

In the case of Christians, that's no surprise. Is that what Putin uses? How about Muslims, Jews or anyone else against it? Is it always the Bible? We also teach evolution i schools, some Christians are against that and it happens anyway for many decades. Don't act like you're getting ripped off, plenty doesn't go the way Christians or rather extreme Christians want them. As a Christian I could say let the chaff grow with the wheat, it'll be sorted out later.
 
American said:
In the case of Christians, that's no surprise. Is that what Putin uses? How about Muslims, Jews or anyone else against it? Is it always the Bible? We also teach evolution i schools, some Christians are against that and it happens anyway for many decades. Don't act like you're getting ripped off, plenty doesn't go the way Christians or rather extreme Christians want them. As a Christian I could say let the chaff grow with the wheat, it'll be sorted out later.
Click to expand...

See you have just admitted my point. The Christians are no different than atheists in the fact both want you to believe what they do and try to make lasws as such. You have made my point, thank you.

That is why I asked the question how are they different? They are not.
 
American said:
Many atheists remind me of The Borg; religion is irrelevant. They want you to believe there are only scientific (physical) explanations for everything. Anything spiritual must be cleansed from the Earth.
Click to expand...

Science is nothing more than a way to accumulate and organize knowledge. Religion says what is and what isn't, but doesn't really provide an explanation.
 
TheNextEra said:
See you have just admitted my point. The Christians are no different than atheists in the fact both want you to believe what they do and try to make lasws as such. You have made my point, thank you.

That is why I asked the question how are they different? They are not.
Click to expand...

Yes they are, you don't see Christians ganging up on Atheists in a thread trying to pound them into submission, like what atheists use to do to Christians in the religious forum.
 
American said:
Many atheists remind me of The Borg; religion is irrelevant. They want you to believe there are only scientific (physical) explanations for everything. Anything spiritual must be cleansed from the Earth.
Click to expand...

Now I'm not an atheist but I suspect you and I are different in the way we were educated about Christianity as I am an orthodox and not catholic or prostestant or born-again christian of any kind. And in orthodoxy a greater focus is on the afterlife. At least it is in my experience and it is indeed one of the reasons why I am still an orthodox christian and haven't jumped ship or whatever.

With this is mind, I don't understand, I mean I do but I don't really understand, this concept that religion should play a part in this world for any other measure than some moral guidelines for how one should live his life in order to go into heaven after one dies. There is this wall of distinction between what is earthly and what is divine in orthodoxy which is only broken down by corrupt patriarchs and people with a political agenda in mind but that's a different topic all together of which I made a whole post about the corruption in orthodox christianity in the europe subforum. irrelevant to this discussion but i'm just putting it out there, it's to do with politics not science.

There is also a orthodox christian church in america. here is their website and what they say on creation.
CREATION | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
CREATION
CREATION. Orthodox Christians confess God as Creator of heaven and earth (Genesis 1:1, the Nicene Creed). Creation did not just happen into existence. God made it all. "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God . . ." (Hebrews 11:3). Orthodox Christians do not believe the Bible to be a scientific textbook on creation, as some mistakenly maintain, but rather God's revelation of Himself and His salvation. Also, helpful as they may be, we do not view scientific textbooks as God's revelation. They may contain both known facts and speculative theory. They are not infallible. Orthodox Christians refuse to build an unnecessary and artificial wall between science and the Christian Faith. Rather, they understand honest scientific investigation as a potential encouragement to faith, for all truth is from God.
Click to expand...

It's a point that is mirrored in, I think, all orthodox churches which there are.. one for every country where a significant number of orthodox people live.


So while earthly matters are very much put on the backseat in orthodoxy, again, save for the moral guidelines inspired almost entirely by the new testament (the OT is never really used for moral guidelines), in matters of the afterlife orthodoxy is quite inflexible. It's very different from the way protestantism is for instance. Where as many protestant faiths have no problem with cremation for instance... and i think a lot of catholics don't have a problem with that either, in orthodoxy you'd be hard pressed to find a church that condones cremation. But again, this is to do with the afterlife and the cult of death that is around it. Cult of death not in some dark manner, but in the sense as how to deal with death for both the deceased and the ones who survive the deceased. and ofc, the afterlife.

So this is why I say that I don't understand people who take the bible literally. It's not a literal document. It's not a scientific document. It's at best a book of parables which focus on giving people, in the new testament coz the old one is just horrid, in order to live a decent life and go to heaven.
 
Amadeus said:
Yes, very much so.
Click to expand...

It must hurt the feelings of atheists everywhere to see this happening in what use to be part of the USSR that promoted atheism. It must create a lot of butt hurt.
 
American said:
Yes they are, you don't see Christians ganging up on Atheists in a thread trying to pound them into submission, like what atheists use to do to Christians in the religious forum.
Click to expand...

Yeah we do, we see them ganging up on people outside abortion clinics, or when there are rallies for homosexuals.
 
American said:
It must hurt the feelings of atheists everywhere to see this happening in what use to be part of the USSR that promoted atheism. It must create a lot of butt hurt.
Click to expand...

Doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that many conservative Christians have a hard on for Putin.
 
Cable said:
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
Click to expand...

I'm an atheist, and no, we don't go to great lengths to avoid consideration of the Bible. We've considered it, we've researched it, and we've requested some kind of evidence from believers, and we've received exactly nothing.

On the other hand, I find it quite remarkable the amount of mental gymnastics you christians will go through to avoid the cold hard facts of evolution and a planet older than 6,000 years.

American said:
Yes they are, you don't see Christians ganging up on Atheists in a thread trying to pound them into submission, like what atheists use to do to Christians in the religious forum.
Click to expand...

Bahahaha, you're getting attacked by atheists. Poor guy, having to defend your beliefs on a debate forum.
 
American said:
Many atheists remind me of The Borg; religion is irrelevant. They want you to believe there are only scientific (physical) explanations for everything. Anything spiritual must be cleansed from the Earth.
Click to expand...

Spirituality and Christianity aren't the same thing. Spirituality needn't even be religious. I'm an atheist, but I can feel uplifted by a glorious sunset, moved by some music, or admire the beauty of a butterfly's wing.
 
Rainman05 said:
Now I'm not an atheist but I suspect you and I are different in the way we were educated about Christianity as I am an orthodox and not catholic or prostestant or born-again christian of any kind. And in orthodoxy a greater focus is on the afterlife. At least it is in my experience and it is indeed one of the reasons why I am still an orthodox christian and haven't jumped ship or whatever.

With this is mind, I don't understand, I mean I do but I don't really understand, this concept that religion should play a part in this world for any other measure than some moral guidelines for how one should live his life in order to go into heaven after one dies. There is this wall of distinction between what is earthly and what is divine in orthodoxy which is only broken down by corrupt patriarchs and people with a political agenda in mind but that's a different topic all together of which I made a whole post about the corruption in orthodox christianity in the europe subforum. irrelevant to this discussion but i'm just putting it out there, it's to do with politics not science.

There is also a orthodox christian church in america. here is their website and what they say on creation.
CREATION | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese


It's a point that is mirrored in, I think, all orthodox churches which there are.. one for every country where a significant number of orthodox people live.


So while earthly matters are very much put on the backseat in orthodoxy, again, save for the moral guidelines inspired almost entirely by the new testament (the OT is never really used for moral guidelines), in matters of the afterlife orthodoxy is quite inflexible. It's very different from the way protestantism is for instance. Where as many protestant faiths have no problem with cremation for instance... and i think a lot of catholics don't have a problem with that either, in orthodoxy you'd be hard pressed to find a church that condones cremation. But again, this is to do with the afterlife and the cult of death that is around it. Cult of death not in some dark manner, but in the sense as how to deal with death for both the deceased and the ones who survive the deceased. and ofc, the afterlife.

So this is why I say that I don't understand people who take the bible literally. It's not a literal document. It's not a scientific document. It's at best a book of parables which focus on giving people, in the new testament coz the old one is just horrid, in order to live a decent life and go to heaven.
Click to expand...

To me your last statement, and the key one in your post is completely wrong. But I see too much belief invested in it to try and change it. The Bible contains parables, but it is hardly a parable itself. That is an exaggeration of galactic proportions. The Bible is a bibliography of many books and letters. To categorize it was one thing is ridiculous.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Spirituality and Christianity aren't the same thing. Spirituality needn't even be religious. I'm an atheist, but I can feel uplifted by a glorious sunset, moved by some music, or admire the beauty of a butterfly's wing.
Click to expand...

No they are the same, God is spirit. People try to PC stuff by dividing it out, but that just a cop out.
 
Cable said:
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
Click to expand...

Consiidering just one subject of societal behavior, slavery, one can indeed make a case for making our own rules, outside of biblical teachings, as being a good idea.

What the New Testament says about slavery

The idea that each and every biblical passage, even those that contradict each other, is the "true word of God" is a tough thing to defend. Physical laws, those which science can prove, are different than moral laws which are entirely the construct of man. To consider slavery anything but an evil institution, as does the bible, makes the assertion that the bible is the infallable "true path" very hard to accept.
 
American said:
To me your last statement, and the key one in your post is completely wrong. But I see too much belief invested it to try and change it. The Bible contains parables, but it is hardly a parable itself. That is an exaggeration of galactic proportions. The Bible is a bibliography of many books and letters. To categorize it was one thing is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I was trying to point out a glaring difference between the way some christian doctrines view this issue and how some others view it.
There is a reason why it is only in the USA for the most part, of all countries with christians and christian traditions, that consistently has debates on this issue. It is mostly due to the existence of cults like the born-again christians of all denominations. Like the methodists and the southern baptists and the jehova witnesses and all the rest. generally, what is now called the evangelicals. It seems to me that a large number of evangelicals are pushing and keep talking about these topics like the role of the bible and it's scientific value where it has none. They keep trying to push it as if it were a scientific document. I was trying to show you that in other religions and other parts of the world, this isn't the case... the bible is used as a lifestyle guide basically.

In a way, and this may seem like an unfair comparison but I am trying to hit a few key notes here to show you the absurdity of holding the position that the bible is anything but what i said it is, islamists are also teaching and pushing for the quoran to be considered the ultimate true word of god and that everything written there is true. If you go and watch some videos on youtube of muslim gatherings and debates between atheists and christians and muslims ,you'll see how time and time again the same idea pops up... that the quoran is the literal word of god and everything written there is absolutely true and holds ultimate truth. It's the best book ever. #1 for every issue. scientific, moral, societal, etc, the quoran has you covered. It's why you see all the schools all around the islamic world teaching people just the quoran.. and I mean schools not terrorist training camps. real schools.
 
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