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Why does what I beleive matter to you?

csbrown28 said:
Ok finally, I get it. Religion is a set of beliefs created by people. You are doing the same thing Lizzie is doing, your trying to separate the belief from the people that created it. You can't have one without the other.

I think Hitch said it well when he said, "It takes religion to make a good person do bad things".

Children don't chose religion, it is given to them and most can't escape it's influence. Just look at a map of religion, you'll find that culture and religion share the same borders, for the most part.
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If bad people didn't have one religion they'd use another. If they didn't have religion, they'd use nationalism, or whatever other excuse they could find.

Bad people find excuses. Excuses do not create bad people.

Blaming religion is just making an excuse for someone.
 
lizzie said:
atheism is as well, as there are plenty of examples in history, of atheists who are bathed in the blood of people they ruled over.
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Name one despot, or dictator that proclaimed his "atheism" as the motivation for doing anything. I mean, that's like saying Hitler was a stamp collector so stamp collecting makes you kill Jews...

You can try to drag stamp collecting and atheism down to your level and beat it with your experience, but it's a patently false argument and you know it.
 
csbrown28 said:
I disagree. The foundation of action is belief.
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I would quibble that the foundations of action are normative beliefs (beliefs about what should be) as opposed to descriptive beliefs (beliefs about what is). Which, I believe, is what Lizzie was getting at.

For example, your Big Bang belief doesn't really lead you to do anything because it's descriptive not normative. Similarly, a simple belief that God exists isn't necessarily normative. Even believing that God condemns homosexuality isn't necessarily normative (though it's often accompanied by normative ones such as the succeeding one). Believing that homosexuality should be opposed because God condemns it, however, is normative.

Now, that being said, descriptive beliefs do play a role in action. You need to have descriptive beliefs before you can have normative ones. In order to have a belief about what should be, you must have a belief about what is and how it can be altered to become what you believe it should be. So, to convince someone to change their course of action you generally have two options: alter their descriptive view or alter their normative view.

So I think what people are getting at when they say "I don't care if someone believes _____ as long as they don't try to ____ me" what they mean is "I don't care if someone holds a descriptive belief____ as long as they don't also hold a normative belief to try to ____ me".
 
ecofarm said:
If bad people didn't have one religion they'd use another. If they didn't have religion, they'd use nationalism, or whatever other excuse they could find.

Bad people find excuses. Excuses do not create bad people.

Blaming religion is just making an excuse for someone.
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Come on, give me a break....You can't compare nationalism to religion. I mean nationalisim might be on the scale of stupid reasons to justify bad actions, but please....Religion sits high atop that scale...And on that scale we can rank religions.

When it comes to nationalists, there aren't many suicide bomber nationalists, unless the state they support is deeply intertwined in religion. Your just trying to give religion a pass......

Sorry, but I'm not buying it....
 
Ideas act as a virus in many ways. People are social animals more or less predisposed towards accepting various ideas based upon the affiliation with those delivering them, and then become vectors for their spread,themselves. The ideas,themselves, are important thus, becauseof their contribution to the gestalt.

There are precious few independant thinkers in this world. Most simply go about the business of replicating various ideas simply because they have been exposed to them and have accepted them.
 
Gardener said:
Ideas act as a virus in many ways. People are social animals more or less predisposed towards accepting various ideas based upon the affiliation with those delivering them, and then become vectors for their spread,themselves. The ideas,themselves, are important thus, becauseof their contribution to the gestalt.

There are precious few independant thinkers in this world. Most simply go about the business of replicating various ideas simply because they have been exposed to them and have accepted them.
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The value of the independent thinker is one of those ideas transmitted over time and is a western culture thing. Even that is a virus if you look at it with the same perspective.

There is a reason for this though. Mankind isn't noble, but an animal bent on survival through a socially cohesive strategy. People are programmed from birth to replicate ideas to help tie them into an in group which increases their defensive and reproductive capability.
 
tacomancer said:
The value of the independent thinker is one of those ideas transmitted over time and is a western culture thing. Even that is a virus if you look at it with the same perspective.

There is a reason for this though. Mankind isn't noble, but an animal bent on survival through a socially cohesive strategy. People are programmed from birth to replicate ideas to help tie them into an in group which increases their defensive and reproductive capability.
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Ah,but that independent thinker provides a great service to all manner of societies throughout history, for the shared hatred towards them has always been a source for social cohesion. Who are the townsfolk going to chase with their torches and pitchforks if not for the heretics challenging their beliefs? Shared hatred is a unifying force like no other.
 
Gardener said:
Ah,but that independent thinker provides a great service to all manner of societies throughout history, for the shared hatred towards them has always been a source for social cohesion. Who are the townsfolk going to chase with their torches and pitchforks if not for the heretics challenging their beliefs? Shared hatred is a unifying force like no other.
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Oh I totally agree with that, but idea are like the matrix, except for very few individuals there is no red pill, just people fooling themselves.
 
I care of other people's actions more than their beliefs too. Specifically if they try to promote an imaginary reality without actual empirical evidence like the religious do.
 
csbrown28 said:
I would agree, I didn't mean to insinuate that religion is 100% bad. If survival of the human species is "good", then religion prior to the modern age, may have provided cohesion where none would have existed without it. The ability to believe in external forces that don't exist, may have provided the motivation to be moral, deal with painful circumstance ect. So it is with some sense of irony that I think that religion is, in a sense may have been necessary to advance humans to where they are today.
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I always question that kind of thinking though, was religion necessary or was it just useful at the time? Could we have reached the same state without religion or done even better without religion? Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 but it seems to me, as my sig says, that we could have reached the same point, found other avenues of social cohesion, via secular means and avoided a lot of death and misery along the way.

I think we've reached apoint in our collective history where we can start shedding long held beliefs in light of new information.
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And that's exactly what we're seeing. Overall religiosity is going down dramatically in the first world.
 
Cephus said:
I always question that kind of thinking though, was religion necessary or was it just useful at the time? Could we have reached the same state without religion or done even better without religion? Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 but it seems to me, as my sig says, that we could have reached the same point, found other avenues of social cohesion, via secular means and avoided a lot of death and misery along the way.



And that's exactly what we're seeing. Overall religiosity is going down dramatically in the first world.
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In my defense I did not say that religion was necessary. My point is that no amount of reason will eliminate superstitions from this world. Old superstitions will die and new ones will be made, because some people are likely to not think it through with a rational mind. The best that society can do is triage the severe religions out of existence. The religions that dont harm anyone should be left alone since it takes a great deal of effort to control the harmful religions especially when their followers dont see it as harmful.

I still stand by my assertion that I dont care what other people believe as long as they dont harm anyone in the process. And that is to be taken as a very general statement with wide birth. After all the belief that there is a afterlife is a very harmful belief psychologically speaking. But in no way would I support policing of beliefs by any government. Im talking more on the line of rational tolerance which can only go so far.
 
Cephus said:
I always question that kind of thinking though, was religion necessary or was it just useful at the time? Could we have reached the same state without religion or done even better without religion? Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 but it seems to me, as my sig says, that we could have reached the same point, found other avenues of social cohesion, via secular means and avoided a lot of death and misery along the way.
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It's a fair question, but what I said is more of a musing then something I hold as true, though I think it's a very interesting question.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
In my defense I did not say that religion was necessary. My point is that no amount of reason will eliminate superstitions from this world. Old superstitions will die and new ones will be made, because some people are likely to not think it through with a rational mind. The best that society can do is triage the severe religions out of existence. The religions that dont harm anyone should be left alone since it takes a great deal of effort to control the harmful religions especially when their followers dont see it as harmful.
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I don't think we're seeing nearly as many new superstitions being created as we are seeing destroyed, we may never be rid of them entirely but we're certainly reducing them as time goes on. I honestly don't think there are *ANY* religions that don't harm anyone because irrational thinking is harm.

I still stand by my assertion that I dont care what other people believe as long as they dont harm anyone in the process. And that is to be taken as a very general statement with wide birth. After all the belief that there is a afterlife is a very harmful belief psychologically speaking. But in no way would I support policing of beliefs by any government. Im talking more on the line of rational tolerance which can only go so far.
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And I think that all irrational people are being harmed and harming others with their irrationality. Religion is just irrationality organized. No one is suggesting that we use the law to stop these beliefs, that's not possible anyhow, but we can certainly stop the people who hold these irrational beliefs from using them to harm others, as we should. Ending the stupidity is a social issue, not a government one.
 
csbrown28 said:
It's a fair question, but what I said is more of a musing then something I hold as true, though I think it's a very interesting question.
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An even better question is, given that religion is going the way of the dodo, how much better will we do in the future than we've done in the past. It's a great time to be alive, to see religion falling apart.
 
Cephus said:
I don't think we're seeing nearly as many new superstitions being created as we are seeing destroyed, we may never be rid of them entirely but we're certainly reducing them as time goes on. I honestly don't think there are *ANY* religions that don't harm anyone because irrational thinking is harm.
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If Facebook is any gauge then I would have to disagree that superstitions are on the decline. perhaps not new superstitions but there seems to be a lot of people that believe in ghosts and all kinds of folklore crap.

I agree that all religions are irrational therefore harmful but I wouldnt want to rule out the possibility of a rational thinking religious person. Thats why I wont go so far as condemn them all in principle. Though I admit I havent had very many conversations (if any) with religious people. As soon as I mention anything against their religion they become irrational.



And I think that all irrational people are being harmed and harming others with their irrationality. Religion is just irrationality organized. No one is suggesting that we use the law to stop these beliefs, that's not possible anyhow, but we can certainly stop the people who hold these irrational beliefs from using them to harm others, as we should. Ending the stupidity is a social issue, not a government one.
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I agree.


I do see a problem here though. Most atheists are not organized, some are but some of them are a bit to irrational themselves. Religion on the other hand maybe irrationally organized but it is highly organized with a strong politically base in US politics. Recent battles over marriage laws and abortion rights shows just how much power they have even if they fail to impose their beliefs on us all. ANd they seem to have ramped up their radical agenda. Making me think that things are actually getting worse rather than better. If they succeed with even half their goals America will be more like the Taliban than anything else.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
I agree that all religions are irrational therefore harmful but I wouldnt want to rule out the possibility of a rational thinking religious person. Thats why I wont go so far as condemn them all in principle. Though I admit I havent had very many conversations (if any) with religious people. As soon as I mention anything against their religion they become irrational.
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By definition, a rational person could not hold an irrational belief and still be rational. They may be rational in other areas of their lives, but the second it comes to their religion, that goes entirely out the window. I've talked to and debated thousands of theists over the years and have never once found one who held their beliefs rationally. It just doesn't happen.

I do see a problem here though. Most atheists are not organized, some are but some of them are a bit to irrational themselves. Religion on the other hand maybe irrationally organized but it is highly organized with a strong politically base in US politics. Recent battles over marriage laws and abortion rights shows just how much power they have even if they fail to impose their beliefs on us all. ANd they seem to have ramped up their radical agenda. Making me think that things are actually getting worse rather than better. If they succeed with even half their goals America will be more like the Taliban than anything else.
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People are people, the only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. There are plenty of wingnut crazy atheists out there who believe in ghosts and conspiracy theories. Organization has nothing to do with whether the object of their belief is actually true and if they're pushing something that's wrong, even if they believe it strongly, that doesn't make it a good thing. We've got a 24 hour news cycle now, we hear about the crazies more today than at any time in the past. There isn't any more craziness going on, just more access to it. We've got another report just recently from the Southern Baptists that their numbers are down across the board again. More than 1000 Southern Baptist churches close every year and 80% of their churches don't baptize a single new member per year. The same is true of the Catholics. The same is true of most Christian denominations. The U.S., according to Gallup, is among the top 10 nations on the planet that shows the biggest decrease in religiosity. It's happening a lot faster than I thought it would, I think we reached a critical tipping point where all of the underpinnings of religion are slipping away and it's failure will only increase from here. The ones that will be left are going to be the fanatics and the fundamentalists, who may be in the news more often because they're going to make up a larger percentage of those that remain, but a minuscule minority of the population as a whole.
 
csbrown28 said:
I've noticed that a lot of people here are talking about what they believe in as if it has no bearing or consequences on those around them and act surprised that the non-believers act so aggressively to call out those that have beliefs based on a theistic world view. "Why can't you just let me believe what I want, it doesn't effect you....." To the contrary I submit that beliefs do matter as they are the foundation of how we act within the world and depending on the beliefs you hold, can have a significant influence on others.

When we decide to act, a belief that something will cause harm, or prevent it, that something will promote health and well-being or suffering. These things matter and why it's important for everyone to base their beliefs on things that can be show to be true via evidence. Evidence using the scientific method is the single most consistent way to remove our feelings on a subject.

So what about my beliefs, are they all grounded in solid irrefutable evidence? Can everything that I believe be shown to be 100% true? Perhaps not as much as I'd like, I suppose that almost anything can be refuted to some extent, but when I chose to believe something that has questionable evidence I consider how that belief affects my actions. What kinds of consequences do beliefs have on the world and other people in it? That said, my consideration of belief in things that cannot to be show to be true is directly proportional on how those ideas affect my actions.

Let's take "the big bang". How does belief in this purported phenomenon effect my actions? I can't think of a single action I've taken based on that belief that has affected anyone else. Well, unless I've used the evidence of the Big Bang to refute specific religious claims. In which case I simply weigh the evidence for both and believe the one that has the greater evidence.

Why do you believe that killing is wrong, stealing is wrong, that deceit is wrong? These are concepts that are reasonably simple, because they have direct consequences that most of the time result in some type of harm.

But what about abortion, taking birth control, being GLBT? Beliefs do affect what other people want to do. If your reason for thinking that any of these things is wrong is based on your belief in a god and what that god has to say about such things, I submit that your beliefs do affect the world and when people attack you (figuratively, not literally) please don't be surprised. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but when when you carry those beliefs out into the public sphere and you are asked to provide evidence and the rest of us call your ideas "magic thinking" or just downright false, please don't be surprised.
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TL; DR

IMO whatever you post on this site is subject to scrutiny rather it affects anyone else at all or not.
 
TheNextEra said:
Frankly I don't care what you believe or anyone else believes.
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I would be disturbed if everyone in my neighborhood firmly believed that I was scum of the earth, firmly believed that I deserved to die, met frequently to discuss it and invited me to their meetings. It would be obnoxious and I wouldn't like it much.
 
Jerry said:
TL; DR
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Why do you brag about your poor reading skills? If you are too retarded to read then you should keep that to yourself. Being unable to read is nothing to brag about my friend. None of us are impressed in the least bit. As a matter of fact, we think less of you now. You could have simply refused to read the comment and left your little "TL; DR" out of the equation altogether. Instead you have chosen to insinuate that you are superior for having inferior intellect. Never use that "TL; DR' again. It's very bad for your image.

Convincing people that you are illiterate is not a very good strategy to take in life.
 
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vasuderatorrent said:
I would be disturbed if everyone in my neighborhood firmly believed that I was scum of the earth, firmly believed that I deserved to die, met frequently to discuss it and invited me to their meetings. It would be obnoxious and I wouldn't like it much.
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As you said, it would be obnoxious, but if you have the whole negihborhood believing that there is probably nothing you can do anyways. Like I said, I don't care what OTHERS believe. I don't likve my life for the opinion of others.
 
Cephus said:
By definition, a rational person could not hold an irrational belief and still be rational. They may be rational in other areas of their lives, but the second it comes to their religion, that goes entirely out the window. I've talked to and debated thousands of theists over the years and have never once found one who held their beliefs rationally. It just doesn't happen.



People are people, the only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. There are plenty of wingnut crazy atheists out there who believe in ghosts and conspiracy theories. Organization has nothing to do with whether the object of their belief is actually true and if they're pushing something that's wrong, even if they believe it strongly, that doesn't make it a good thing. We've got a 24 hour news cycle now, we hear about the crazies more today than at any time in the past. There isn't any more craziness going on, just more access to it. We've got another report just recently from the Southern Baptists that their numbers are down across the board again. More than 1000 Southern Baptist churches close every year and 80% of their churches don't baptize a single new member per year. The same is true of the Catholics. The same is true of most Christian denominations. The U.S., according to Gallup, is among the top 10 nations on the planet that shows the biggest decrease in religiosity. It's happening a lot faster than I thought it would, I think we reached a critical tipping point where all of the underpinnings of religion are slipping away and it's failure will only increase from here. The ones that will be left are going to be the fanatics and the fundamentalists, who may be in the news more often because they're going to make up a larger percentage of those that remain, but a minuscule minority of the population as a whole.
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I hope that you are right, that religion is truly in decline. But I am just not seeing it. I have seen the numbers that you speak of but when I look around in the real world the two dont seem to mesh. You mentioned 24 hour news coverage and that the crazies are just easier to see these days. That same logic though dictates that we also see more of everything including atheists. Before the internet I was quite alone as a atheist. I am sure that I knew plenty but we didnt really share that we were atheists because we dont really care that much. hell I even said that I was a Christian at times because of what would happen to my job or whatever if I said the truth. Perhaps those numbers reflect more honest numbers and nothing has really changed and no trend is at foot? Perhaps the faithful just are not going to church anymore? i do know some friends that have stopped going to church, which means their children dont go to church. But they are definitely religious people. Thats the problem with Gallup polls and numbers gathered in general there isnt any definitive context. I will remain skeptical about the decline of religion perhaps until there are bunches of churches for sale, and I dont see so much religious crap in society. Where I live religion is the choice of the majority and it shows in very fabric of society around here. SO much that at times I have been persecuted for being a atheist recently. **** me for being honest about my rejections of claims.
 
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