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Religion = Believing in Magic

calamity

calamity

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I've encountered a few die hard religious followers who insist that their religion does not include a belief in magic. I basically argued that religion is a belief in magic along with cult-like adherence to various ritual and leadership worship. Where the line between religion and belief in magic lies is blurry and, in most cultures, is impossible to distinguish.

Of course, they argued that Christianity is not like Voodoo worship and the like. To which I chuckled and now started this thread here.

BTW: In Christ based religions, the magical beliefs are obvious to outsiders like me. Christ was conceived by magic; he lived a magical life: walking on water, creating food from thin air, raising people from the dead, making the blind see, etc.; he himself even rose from the dead, and the ultimate, Jesus magically transports his followers to heaven upon their deaths. All of that is a belief in magic.


So, is religion a belief in magic?
 
calamity said:
I've encountered a few die hard religious followers who insist that their religion does not include a belief in magic. I basically argued that religion is a belief in magic along with cult-like adherence to various ritual and leadership worship. Where the line between religion and belief in magic lies is blurry and, in most cultures, is impossible to distinguish.

Of course, they argued that Christianity is not like Voodoo worship and the like. To which I chuckled and now started this thread here.

BTW: In Christ based religions, the magical beliefs are obvious to outsiders like me. Christ was conceived by magic; he lived a magical life: walking on water, creating food from thin air, raising people from the dead, making the blind see, etc.; he himself even rose from the dead, and the ultimate, Jesus magically transports his followers to heaven upon their deaths. All of that is a belief in magic.


So, is religion a belief in magic?
Click to expand...

Magic has its baggage and its use in this specific context puts suspicion in the reader's mind. But from the way you write, I infer that you have a strong and fixed opinion and worry little about details and definitions in these matters. ;)
 
calamity said:
I've encountered a few die hard religious followers who insist that their religion does not include a belief in magic. I basically argued that religion is a belief in magic along with cult-like adherence to various ritual and leadership worship. Where the line between religion and belief in magic lies is blurry and, in most cultures, is impossible to distinguish.
Click to expand...

Really? I think we need to find a way to define what you mean.

Of course, they argued that Christianity is not like Voodoo worship and the like. To which I chuckled and now started this thread here.
Click to expand...

Can you be specific as to why you chuckled? What are you comparing?

BTW: In Christ based religions, the magical beliefs are obvious to outsiders like me.
Click to expand...

Because you see them that way.

Christ was conceived by magic; he lived a magical life: walking on water, creating food from thin air, raising people from the dead, making the blind see, etc.; he himself even rose from the dead, and the ultimate, Jesus magically transports his followers to heaven upon their deaths. All of that is a belief in magic.
Click to expand...

Okay so you are defining magic as any supernatural act.


So, is religion a belief in magic?
Click to expand...

Not nearly all.
 
joG said:
Magic has its baggage and its use in this specific context puts suspicion in the reader's mind. But from the way you write, I infer that you have a strong and fixed opinion and worry little about details and definitions in these matters. ;)
Click to expand...

Sure. After all, it's pretty clear to me that a belief in supernatural beings and events is clearly a belief in magic. And, yes, magic in the broader sense of the term, not necessarily magic as in pulling a rabbit out of a hat---although, some of the "tricks" attributed to god or Christ are just that.
 
calamity said:
.... And, yes, magic in the broader sense of the term, not necessarily magic as in pulling a rabbit out of a hat....
Click to expand...

You mean sort of like Big Bang?

;)
 
If you are narrow minded enough not to look at the role religion plays in the lives of individuals, you might be inclined to believe what you believe.

Religion plays an important role in the lives of many, as a source of comfort, and as a guide for living a productive and purposeful life. Religion can be a source of comfort in times of pain and loss, and something to hold onto when your world is falling apart. I frankly wish that religion played a more central role in my own life.
 
Without supernatural events (that happened long ago and all the witnesses are lost to history), religion would seem boring. You gotta have outlandish stories, guys turning into pillars of salt, living inside fish, raising from the dead.

Funny how none of these violations of the laws of physics happens in modern times, or never happens in a controlled environment, or are witnessed by millions.
 
Sababa said:
1. Really? I think we need to find a way to define what you mean.



2. Can you be specific as to why you chuckled? What are you comparing?



3. Because you see them that way.



4. Okay so you are defining magic as any supernatural act.




5. Not nearly all.
Click to expand...
1. 2-5 should do that quite well.
2. Because to an objective outsider, when it comes to belief in the hocus-pocus, Christianity and Voodoo or any pagan belief systems are virtually indistinguishable. I am amused to see that those mired in their belief system see their system as some "truth" rather than accepting the obvious fact that it's just a belief in their own kind of magic.
3. There is no other way to define them if one looks at the claims objectively except to say they are magical. Virgin birth, walking on water, endless baskets of fish....come on. What the hell else is it, if not a belief in magic?
4. I am defining magic as any act that defies the laws of chemistry, physics, biology and any other science out there: geology, cosmology, astronomy, etc.
5. The more one believes in thier own religion the less magical they perceive it to be. I am sure.
 
lizzie said:
If you are narrow minded enough not to look at the role religion plays in the lives of individuals, you might be inclined to believe what you believe.

Religion plays an important role in the lives of many, as a source of comfort, and as a guide for living a productive and purposeful life. Religion can be a source of comfort in times of pain and loss, and something to hold onto when your world is falling apart. I frankly wish that religion played a more central role in my own life.
Click to expand...
Yes, a strongly held belief in magic can be comforting. Agreed.

Believing that prayers will be answered and suffering alleviated beats facing the reality that nothing out there gives a damn about us, and that all the world's suffering will continue for no reason other than that it is the random cold fact of existence. Believing a lost child will be reunited with grieving parents in heaven, and that worshiping the right gods in the right ways will lead to eternal life probably does give comfort. But, it's still a belief in magic.
 
joG said:
You mean sort of like Big Bang?

;)
Click to expand...
Big Bang Theory, though not proven yet, does have substantial physical evidence supporting it. God, not so much.
 
calamity said:
Big Bang Theory, though not proven yet, does have substantial physical evidence supporting it. God, not so much.
Click to expand...

Ah yes. The physical evidence! I know of no evidence in physics pointing to the beginning of things physical. Is that yet hidden by a thick shroud of mystery? And as to the physics, we do not really understand at all, what is going on. We don't even seem to know how many dimensions there are nor whether the laws of physics are local or for ever. In that kind of Universe it seems to me rather brave to say we know it.
 
calamity said:
I've encountered a few die hard religious followers who insist that their religion does not include a belief in magic. I basically argued that religion is a belief in magic along with cult-like adherence to various ritual and leadership worship. Where the line between religion and belief in magic lies is blurry and, in most cultures, is impossible to distinguish.

Of course, they argued that Christianity is not like Voodoo worship and the like. To which I chuckled and now started this thread here.

BTW: In Christ based religions, the magical beliefs are obvious to outsiders like me. Christ was conceived by magic; he lived a magical life: walking on water, creating food from thin air, raising people from the dead, making the blind see, etc.; he himself even rose from the dead, and the ultimate, Jesus magically transports his followers to heaven upon their deaths. All of that is a belief in magic.


So, is religion a belief in magic?
Click to expand...

Miracles not magic.
 
Sababa said:
Really? I think we need to find a way to define what you mean.



Can you be specific as to why you chuckled? What are you comparing?



Because you see them that way.



Okay so you are defining magic as any supernatural act.




Not nearly all.
Click to expand...

calamity said:
Big Bang Theory, though not proven yet, does have substantial physical evidence supporting it. God, not so much.
Click to expand...

Because you refuse to come to terms with who lit that fuse.
 
calamity said:
1. 2-5 should do that quite well.
2. Because to an objective outsider, when it comes to belief in the hocus-pocus, Christianity and Voodoo or any pagan belief systems are virtually indistinguishable. I am amused to see that those mired in their belief system see their system as some "truth" rather than accepting the obvious fact that it's just a belief in their own kind of magic.
3. There is no other way to define them if one looks at the claims objectively except to say they are magical. Virgin birth, walking on water, endless baskets of fish....come on. What the hell else is it, if not a belief in magic?
4. I am defining magic as any act that defies the laws of chemistry, physics, biology and any other science out there: geology, cosmology, astronomy, etc.
5. The more one believes in thier own religion the less magical they perceive it to be. I am sure.
Click to expand...

1. Sadly you fail
2. No they are. Religious belief and hocus-pocus are two different things. If you compare to voodoo alone then of course real voodoo is a religious practice. My guess is you lump the kind of voodoo that you can find in the French Quarter which is entertainment or Chris Angel which is worse because it is hardly as entertaining. Defining your terms helps when using a word like magic. Magic has many meaning.
3. Yes there is. Mythology is not necessarily magic. Digging deeper than the words on the page will help you. Even when it comes to voodoo. So a shaman in Africa did a ceremony to inflict and injury on Ronoldo as the World Cup approaches. Guess what he is injured. Did the magic work? It is his religion.
4. Great. Biblical miracles would certainly fall into that category. Now the question is do all religions believe the mythology is factual or not. That is where you fall apart in your proclamation. BTW saying something is magic and then asking if it is magic is not debate.
5. Doesn't address the issue. Most religious people I know do not believe in magic.

Funny I know more sports fans who believe in magic. Things like the Madden curse, what you wear and were you sit for a game, jinxes etc.
Are you one of those?
 
Sababa said:
1. Sadly you fail
2. No they are. Religious belief and hocus-pocus are two different things. If you compare to voodoo alone then of course real voodoo is a religious practice. My guess is you lump the kind of voodoo that you can find in the French Quarter which is entertainment or Chris Angel which is worse because it is hardly as entertaining. Defining your terms helps when using a word like magic. Magic has many meaning.
3. Yes there is. Mythology is not necessarily magic. Digging deeper than the words on the page will help you. Even when it comes to voodoo. So a shaman in Africa did a ceremony to inflict and injury on Ronoldo as the World Cup approaches. Guess what he is injured. Did the magic work? It is his religion.
4. Great. Biblical miracles would certainly fall into that category. Now the question is do all religions believe the mythology is factual or not. That is where you fall apart in your proclamation. BTW saying something is magic and then asking if it is magic is not debate.
5. Doesn't address the issue. Most religious people I know do not believe in magic.

Funny I know more sports fans who believe in magic. Things like the Madden curse, what you wear and were you sit for a game, jinxes etc.
Are you one of those?
Click to expand...
Religious people deny that what they believe in is no different than a soft variation on the Madden Curse. THe belief that Christ will rapture his followers is belief in magic. Belief that we are saved through Christ is belief in magic: the magic is that Christ will magically save us. Mohamed rode a magic carpet with the angel Gabriel. Moses magically received stone tablets from a burning bush. THe list is pretty long.
 
WCH said:
Because you refuse to come to terms with who lit that fuse.
Click to expand...
Belief in someone lighting the fuse is no less magical than believing the fuse lit itself. I believe neither, btw. I freely accept that the answer is unknown...at least at this time.
 
joG said:
Ah yes. The physical evidence! I know of no evidence in physics pointing to the beginning of things physical. Is that yet hidden by a thick shroud of mystery? And as to the physics, we do not really understand at all, what is going on. We don't even seem to know how many dimensions there are nor whether the laws of physics are local or for ever. In that kind of Universe it seems to me rather brave to say we know it.
Click to expand...

You do realize, don't you, that you are not successfully arguing for "filling in the blanks" with "god did it". The logical conclusion of what you are saying, if your argument holds, is that we should simply say "we don't know". I think an empiricist would far more comfortable with that far sooner than a religionist. I always am amused at the attempt to "turn the tables" as if that somehow would save the "god did it" arguments from utter destruction. It doesn't.
 
For me, magic is anything that inspires awe and wonder. There are things that science can do which I consider to be magical, even though we know how they're done. I mean, take a step back and look at all the things modern humans do that were impossible 100 years ago. Is that not magical?

Likewise, there are a lot of things I've witnessed that science hasn't yet qualified, but those experiences were just as magical to me.

Deezad said:
The logical conclusion of what you are saying, if your argument holds, is that we should simply say "we don't know". I think an empiricist would far more comfortable with that far sooner than a religionist.
Click to expand...

There are two types of people really... the ones who look at mysteries and can allow the mystery to inspire a sense of magic in them without having to immediately explain it; and there are those who need to immediately investigate and find out how. Even with my combined background of science and religion, sometimes I just don't care about the how and prefer to revel in the grandiosity of what I'm observing.

I don't get why this has to be about science vs. religion when really it's just about perceptual attachment vs. unattachment. Likewise I don't get why every human experience should beg for approval from ANY authority. Anyone who has learned something worth knowing knows that the more you know, the more you actually know nothing. :shrug:

I find that scientists downgrade amazement with their mundane explanations of everything, and likewise too many religious people are stagnantly stuck in this stupefying awe of everything. It's not black and white, people.
 
calamity said:
I've encountered a few die hard religious followers who insist that their religion does not include a belief in magic. I basically argued that religion is a belief in magic along with cult-like adherence to various ritual and leadership worship. Where the line between religion and belief in magic lies is blurry and, in most cultures, is impossible to distinguish.

Of course, they argued that Christianity is not like Voodoo worship and the like. To which I chuckled and now started this thread here.

BTW: In Christ based religions, the magical beliefs are obvious to outsiders like me. Christ was conceived by magic; he lived a magical life: walking on water, creating food from thin air, raising people from the dead, making the blind see, etc.; he himself even rose from the dead, and the ultimate, Jesus magically transports his followers to heaven upon their deaths. All of that is a belief in magic.


So, is religion a belief in magic?
Click to expand...

So, if magic is any inexplicable act or an act that is seemingly beyond what is possible in the world as we know it I have some magic for you:

Dark energy.

Dark matter.

The hyper-expansion of the universe.

The Big Bang.

Now that is magic! You gotta have a lot of faith to buy that stuff.
 
Calamity going several days without starting a faith baiting thread would truly be a miracle.
 
LowDown said:
1. So, if magic is any inexplicable act or an act that is seemingly beyond what is possible in the world as we know it I have some magic for you:

2. Dark energy.

Dark matter.

The hyper-expansion of the universe.

3.The Big Bang.

Now that is magic! You gotta have a lot of faith to buy that stuff.
Click to expand...
1. yes, I am using the broader definition of magic. Magic is some event occurring which is beyond the known laws of the universe: physics, chemistry, biology, etc. Immaculate conception, for example, is beyond the laws of biology. Christ walking on water exceeds the laws of physics. Turning water to blood defies laws of chemistry.

2. Those are not yet proven, and evidence for them is nebulous at best. Therefore, I do not accept them as fact.

3. Big Bang has significant supporting evidence backing it up. Background radiation, expansion of space, and a bunch of chemistry I do not understand regarding the number of helium and hydrogen atoms in the universe are a few examples of observational evidence for the big bang. However, unlike with the theory of evolution, which is a slam-dunk fact, I am OK with people saying the jury is still out on BBT.
 
X Factor said:
Calamity going several days without starting a faith baiting thread would truly be a miracle.
Click to expand...

Unlike belief in things magical being akin to religion, faith bashing is not baiting.
 
Dezaad said:
You do realize, don't you, that you are not successfully arguing for "filling in the blanks" with "god did it". The logical conclusion of what you are saying, if your argument holds, is that we should simply say "we don't know". I think an empiricist would far more comfortable with that far sooner than a religionist. I always am amused at the attempt to "turn the tables" as if that somehow would save the "god did it" arguments from utter destruction. It doesn't.
Click to expand...


I don't think I would think quite that way. Many scientists have been quite good scientists, while being religious nonetheless. I don't really see why religion and curiosity of why things work should be mutually exclusive in any case.
And it seems so unscientific to jump to conclusions especially, when one knows that there is an unsolved question.
 
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