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Evidence that Man wrote the Bible, not God.

Slyhunter said:
If you had as much faith as a mustard seed you could move a mountain.
Seen any mountains move lately?
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Well, going by this statement I'm assuming that you think that you have far more faith than me...could you please move Mt. Kilimanjaro to my back yard?
 
Goshin said:
You sound as if you consider yourself expert on the subject of magic, and desire to define it according to your own terms. Sorcery is a term that was used in the King James translation, and translations can be somewhat inexact. This is why I go to the Greek or Hebrew when there is something important about which I am uncertain.

Biblically, the practices being spoken of typically involved the invocation of pagan "gods" or demonic forces, or "spirits"... or arguably in one case the making of poisons for nefarious purpose.
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If I was an expert I would be able to perform magic.....if it exists. ;)

But, as far as we are able to, yes, I am fairly well versed in magic and its terms. The word sorcerer, which is used in the bible, has nothing to do with spirits or gods or demonic forces. It has to do with energy and strength of will power.
 
Kal'Stang said:
If I was an expert I would be able to perform magic.....if it exists. ;)

But, as far as we are able to, yes, I am fairly well versed in magic and its terms. The word sorcerer, which is used in the bible, has nothing to do with spirits or gods or demonic forces. It has to do with energy and strength of will power.
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What is mageuo and mageia, then? Do you know without looking it up?
 
Goshin said:
What is mageuo and mageia, then? Do you know without looking it up?
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I admit, I looked it up. Come to find out that its a greek term meaning magician. I said I was fairly well versed in magic and its terms, I didn't say that I knew multiple languages. ;)
 
Kal'Stang said:
I admit, I looked it up. Come to find out that its a greek term meaning magician. I said I was fairly well versed in magic and its terms, I didn't say that I knew multiple languages. ;)
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Mageuo and Mageia were translated as Sorceror and Sorcery in the KJV.


Now if you didn't know the original Greek terms, just the 15th century English translation, how can you claim to know exactly what sorcery is and claim it is something other than how the Bible commonly describes it, as "having a familiar spirit" or engaging in the invocation of supernatural personalities other than God?

My chief point here is that you're operating on a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily grounded and solid, but you're backing them as if they were.
 
Goshin said:
Mageuo and Mageia were translated as Sorceror and Sorcery in the KJV.


Now if you didn't know the original Greek terms, just the 15th century English translation, how can you claim to know exactly what sorcery is and claim it is something other than how the Bible commonly describes it, as "having a familiar spirit" or engaging in the invocation of supernatural personalities other than God?

My chief point here is that you're operating on a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily grounded and solid, but you're backing them as if they were.
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I'm working on only one assumption. That if God had written the Bible then the terms would mean the exact same today as they did then. Otherwise it is written by man and subject to all the fallibilities of man. Including that of changes in the meaning of words and mans greed and hunger for power.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I'm working on only one assumption. That if God had written the Bible then the terms would mean the exact same today as they did then. Otherwise it is written by man and subject to all the fallibilities of man. Including that of changes in the meaning of words and mans greed and hunger for power.
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You say you believe in God.

I'm guessing this is one of those nebulous, "God is out there somewhere" types of belief where God is not actually engaged with humanity to any significant degree.


I'll grant this is an assumption, but I'll explain why:

If God is omniscient, omnipotent and all those other Omni's, and cares anything about His creation, then it stands to reason that He would leave some message for us.

If that message is the Bible, then the Omni/etc God has the power to preserve His message in a useful and purposeful form throughout the millennia despite any efforts of man to extinguish or corrupt it.

Whether you are a strict literalist or an inspirationalist or a theological liberal, if you are a Christian you believe the Bible contains God's message to his creation. Those may differ on whether they consider it word for word or not, but agree that the message is there.


If you don't, then you're either assuming God is too weak to preserve His word, or that He is indifferent to us (and if so then irrelevant), or else you assume the Bible is not God's message.


If any of those are the case then we're not remotely operating from the same frame of reference, and there's little point in trying to discuss the issue of magic if we're going to be using totally different terms and references and baselines.
 
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Goshin said:
You say you believe in God.

I'm guessing this is one of those nebulous, "God is out there somewhere" types of belief where God is not actually engaged with humanity to any significant degree.


I'll grant this is an assumption, but I'll explain why:

If God is omniscient, omnipotent and all those other Omni's, and cares anything about His creation, then it stands to reason that He would leave some message for us.

If that message is the Bible, then the Omni/etc God has the power to preserve His message in a useful and purposeful form throughout the millennia despite any efforts of man to extinguish or corrupt it.

Whether you are a strict literalist or an inspirationalist or a theological liberal, if you are a Christian you believe the Bible contains God's message to his creation. Those may differ on whether they consider it word for word or not, but agree that the message is there.


If you don't, then you're either assuming God is too weak to preserve His word, or that He is indifferent to us (and if so then irrelevant), or else you assume the Bible is not God's message.


If any of those are the case then we're not remotely operating from the same frame of reference, and there's little point in trying to discuss the issue of magic if we're going to be using totally different terms and references and baselines.
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I believe in a literal God. However I also believe that He gave man free will. Just so I don't have to explain it all again I'll refer you to post #48. Yes, God could preserve His Word. But in doing so he would violate his promise of Free Will. So he has left it up to us.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I believe in a literal God. However I also believe that He gave man free will. Just so I don't have to explain it all again I'll refer you to post #48. Yes, God could preserve His Word. But in doing so he would violate his promise of Free Will. So he has left it up to us.
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Can you, or do you wish to, use scriptural references to explain where preserving his word would violate some promise made to us? Or is this another assumption?

And if you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, then why would you believe in any assumed promise it might contain?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Whether its something that is unexplained or not doesn't make it magic.
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Yes, it does.

Kal'Stang said:
Your contention here is that those that "used magic" way back then was just using science, but called it magic because it was not understood. But by using that science (called magic) it was "unclean" or "the devils work". Which would make science unclean.
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That is not my contention. I was't aware any part of our conversation had to do with things being clean or unclean. I was talking about the word and nothing more.

Things were called "magic" by people who didn't understand how it worked, and by those who wanted to keep others in the dark about how it worked. A "wizard" (which just means "wise") flicks his hand at a flame, producing a green flash, and the uneducated masses call that "magic" because they have no idea that Copper Sulfate or Boric Acid burns green. But the "wizzard" knows, and that's where the modern science of chemistry came from.

"Magic" was stigmatized to keep the masses from seeking knowledge, which in turn secured the ruler's political power. 'Magic' should be destigmatized because the wonder of it attracts people to learn.

Knowledge is neither clean nor unclean. It's what you do with your knowledge that is clean or unclean. Science, therefore, is neither clean nor unclean.

Kal'Stang said:
Then why would God put the word "magic" (or its various terms) in the Bible?
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God didn't put anything in the bible. Man wrote it, not God, we put all the words there. If we didn't understand something, we called it magic.

Kal'Stang said:
But that is the inference of your statement. Whether you meant it or not, its there.
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It's your inference, not the inference. I wasn't aware we were addressing the concepts of clean and unclean when I made that post. Please do not mistake me for someone who has been reading this entire thread. You haven't read me say anything like "the devil's work".
 
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Kal, you're So Coy about your god!
Questions:

1. You say he's a literal god.
Is he one we know?
Do you believe Jesus is god or son of?
BUT.... Since nothing the Bible says about him is true?
1a. If he is, then you know him independent of the Bible? Personal appearance?​

2. What did/does your god do?
What makes him a god?
He created or didn't create the heavens and all the creatures therein, As Is?
Or.... just created the first spark/biogenesis and evolution happened independently of him?
None of it?

You could just make a more candid/pro-active post elaborating it/him/her instead 500 pages it will take at this rate.
 
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Kal'Stang said:
Then why would God put the word "magic" (or its various terms) in the Bible?
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From your link:
Leviticus 19:31 ESV
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.
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Translation: These people have knowledge you don't understand and will manipulate you.

Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
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Translation: People who deceive others will be punished.

Colossians 2:8 ESV
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
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Translation: Don't let others manipulate you.

Kings 21:6 ESV
And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.
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Translation: This guy knew better but let people manipulate him anyway, and God was kinda mad about that.
 
Kal'Stang said:
So what you're trying to say here is that I have no faith in God because I don't think that he wrote the bible? This is where you are wrong. You see God also gave Man free will. That free will also includes the ability to edit and change or make the Bible into something He never meant it to be.
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Anyone who studied biblical exegesis knows that there are glosses all over it, especially in the New Testament. Yes, men wrote the Bible and men are flawed, but we can't be Christian and not have faith that enough of it, most of it, is true to God's message.
 
Kal'Stang said:
This thread is not about whether God exists or not. It is about the bible. Please stay on topic.
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The issue is: Why would one want to believe the Bible's magical claims if they only present anecdotal evidence?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Because if magic did exist back then, it would exist now, after all, the Devil is still around isn't he? There are still people that willingly worship him...I don't see any of them performing magic.
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If Bible was written by man and not God, why would you believe that magic exists and that the Devil exists and "is still around?"

On the same grounds (and this is most important) what is so worthy of worshiping when they cannot support their statements with evidence?
 
Goshin said:
Can you, or do you wish to, use scriptural references to explain where preserving his word would violate some promise made to us? Or is this another assumption?

And if you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, then why would you believe in any assumed promise it might contain?
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In order for God to preserve His writings He would have to take a hand in it. Which would mean by not allowing something to happen. If he does not allow a human being to change what is written then that is subverting Free Will.

My belief in God has its roots in the Bible from when I was a child. At that time I believed in the bible and all it said. As I grew older I learned that human beings are generally, not always, greedy and power hungry and will do anything to gain what they want, including subverting God. What better way to subvert God than to mess with the Bible?

I believe that God gave us Free Will and the only way to preserve Free Will is to not interfere with it. There is at the least an implied promise in the very nature of Gods Gift of Free Will. I know I have free will because I can make choices, good and bad.
 
LowDown said:
Anyone who studied biblical exegesis knows that there are glosses all over it, especially in the New Testament. Yes, men wrote the Bible and men are flawed, but we can't be Christian and not have faith that enough of it, most of it, is true to God's message.
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So, you admit that Man wrote the bible and not God.
 
mbig said:
Kal, you're So Coy about your god!
Questions:

1. You say he's a literal god.
Is he one we know?
Do you believe Jesus is god or son of?
BUT.... Since nothing the Bible says about him is true?
1a. If he is, then you know him independent of the Bible? Personal appearance?​

2. What did/does your god do?
What makes him a god?
He created or didn't create the heavens and all the creatures therein, As Is?
Or.... just created the first spark/biogenesis and evolution happened independently of him?
None of it?

You could just make a more candid/pro-active post elaborating it/him/her instead 500 pages it will take at this rate.
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This thread has nothing to do with my God. It has to do with the bible and whether it was written by man or God. I have answered a few questions about my beliefs as it pertains to the subject at hand. Otherwise I see no reason to make this thread about me and my beliefs.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Which is my contention. Did we get mixed up somehow?
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If you know that one person wrote a book then you shouldn't ask why some other person put certain words in it. That other person didn't put any words in it at all.
 
DDD said:
The issue is: Why would one want to believe the Bible's magical claims if they only present anecdotal evidence?
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Thats not what this thread is about.
 
Kal'Stang said:
We all know today that there is no such thing as magic and there never has been. Despite what people believed 2000 years ago or even 200 years ago. And yet the bible, both new and old, mentions magic several times either by mentioning certain people (Egypts Pharoh who's magicians couldn't tell him the meaning of his dreams so he called for Joseph for instance) or by simply saying to not associate with such as practice "sorcery".

Why would God, who people say wrote the bible even mention sorcery if such a thing does not exist?

49 Bible Verses about Magic
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I've never heard anyone say god wrote the bible. It's always called "the word of god written by man". The qu'ran is believed to have been God's exact words I think. Get your books right this whole thread is useless.
 
Kal'Stang said:
So, you admit that Man wrote the bible and not God.
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The Bible is the spiritual core of Christianity. You can't dismiss the Bible as being purely a creation of men and be a Christian. Period.

The Bible was written by men inspired by God.
 
LowDown said:
The Bible is the spiritual core of Christianity. You can't dismiss the Bible as being purely a creation of men and be a Christian. Period.

The Bible was written by men inspired by God.
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And therein lies the problem.

Who has more faith, the person who follows a book written by men...or the person who believes without the same book or anything else?
 
LowDown said:
The Bible is the spiritual core of Christianity. You can't dismiss the Bible as being purely a creation of men and be a Christian. Period.

The Bible was written by men inspired by God.
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That's what's so cryptic in the OP.
Yes, of course men wrote the Bible.
Did anyone disagree? Certainly not me, I'm an atheist.

But Kal's message is similar to the standard one I read on Muslim message boards.
That is, they [too] acknowledge Jesus as a Prophet but say the NT is [completely] Corrupt and ergo we don't know a single word he said.
It's a hollow acknowledgement: a prophet with no known/real message.

That said..
Kal you have a perfect right to not disclose the nature of your god, it just makes your message here difficult to understand. Especially since virtually no one disagrees with the OP.
So/But what's the real point you're trying to make: Jesus (if you're talking about Jesus at all) can be anything You want him to be? Jesus has only tiny mention outside the Bible and couldn't be deified without it.
 
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