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Stephen Jay Gould: Evolution as Fact and Theory

mbig

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We see alot of Wacky anti-evolutionists here of late.
Completely Off-the-wall Jesus Freaks with supposed contradictions in evolution.
One especially persistent Spammer.
This poster Cannot debate evolution at all.
I see a few on other boards too. There must be an email chain among certain groups like 'Seven-Eleven Adventists'.

Evolution as Fact and Theory
by Stephen Jay Gould
StephenJayGould.org 1994
Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"

"...The rise of creationism is politics, pure and simple; it represents one issue (and by no means the major concern) of the resurgent evangelical right. Arguments that seemed Kooky just a decade ago have reentered the mainstream.

The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution.
First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory" to convey the false impression that we evolutionists are covering up the rotten core of our edifice.
Second, they misuse a popular philosophy of science to argue that they are behaving scientifically in attacking evolution. Yet the same philosophy demonstrates that their own belief is not science, and that "scientific creationism" is a meaningless and self-contradictory phrase, an example of what Orwell called "newspeak."

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science—that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.
[......]
Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations."
[.......]
Yet amidst all this turmoil No biologist has been lead to doubt the Fact that evolution occurred; we are debating How it happened. We are all trying to explain the same thing: the tree of evolutionary descent linking all organisms by ties of genealogy.

Creationists pervert and caricature this debate by conveniently neglecting the common conviction that underlies it, and by Falsely suggesting that evolutionists now doubt the very phenomenon we are struggling to understand.
[......]
The entire creationist program includes little more than a rhetorical attempt to falsify evolution by presenting Supposed Contradictions among its supporters.
[......]
 
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We see alot of Wacky anti-evolutionists here of late.

Not sure what you hope to get out of this.

This is all rather futile for a few reasons. The people you're preaching who do post already understand the topic and think YEC are nuts. YECs have no intention of ever learning anything or educating themselves at all. And the people who view this forum fall in one of those two camps. There is no audience here to be swayed.

At times there is a usefulness in debating with whackadoodle creationists to refine your arguments, but at some point debating with them at all becomes a lesson in pure idiocy. I occasionally will post just to derive from fun from mockery, but it's effectively impossible to have an intelligent discussion with people who will deny the testable properties of water that anyone can do in their kitchen sink because their interpretation of their Religion demands it despite the fact that it creates all sorts of monster theological problems with the nature of their God.

Every time some lunatic tries to argue that Evolution isn't valid because it's a theory I bring up Germ and Gravity to the point out how they're basically ignorant fools who are giant hypocrites. But that's for me and other to laugh at. I'm under no impression that these people who fail to understand what a scientific theory will realize just how inconsistent their views are.
 
Not sure what you hope to get out of this.

This is all rather futile for a few reasons. The people you're preaching who do post already understand the topic and think YEC are nuts. YECs have no intention of ever learning anything or educating themselves at all. And the people who view this forum fall in one of those two camps. There is no audience here to be swayed.

At times there is a usefulness in debating with whackadoodle creationists to refine your arguments, but at some point debating with them at all becomes a lesson in pure idiocy. I occasionally will post just to derive from fun from mockery, but it's effectively impossible to have an intelligent discussion with people who will deny the testable properties of water that anyone can do in their kitchen sink because their interpretation of their Religion demands it despite the fact that it creates all sorts of monster theological problems with the nature of their God.

Every time some lunatic tries to argue that Evolution isn't valid because it's a theory I bring up Germ and Gravity to the point out how they're basically ignorant fools who are giant hypocrites. But that's for me and other to laugh at. I'm under no impression that these people who fail to understand what a scientific theory will realize just how inconsistent their views are.
Well we should close the section then.
I mean, if you want to preclude one of 'us' taking the OP initiative instead laughing the YECers off the board only by waiting for some OP like "Proof god created Zebras from scratch".

It's a direct counter to some posters in the section now. A banner response to at least one person who apparently only understands/sees such.

Even among the more sober believers, I think this is useful.
As the country get's more polarized, their science warps.
People like Koch and the/his Tea Party can move the needle even if evo isn't their main issue.
Science is now politics.
Environment and Climate is In the GP section (not science).. 'Religion' gets it's own section.
As David Brooks said in the NYT, "You get to choose your own reality".

There is NOT a week that goes by that some crea-clown doesn't try the "It's only a theory" routine.
You can't repeat/debunk that alone too much.
(I just had a thought. A sticky at the top might be useful in that respect, eliminate a Third of the posts of one side)
They must be made to understand it's a fact too.
Headlines are a fine way to reach those who'll never read Sciam.

I find it comforting to have high quality material in the section/debate.
It Would be superfluous in the Science section, but this IS the 'science v religion' section
So what better place?
Why can't we have pro-evo headlines.. good ones.
 
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Not sure what you hope to get out of this.

This is all rather futile for a few reasons. The people you're preaching who do post already understand the topic and think YEC are nuts. YECs have no intention of ever learning anything or educating themselves at all. And the people who view this forum fall in one of those two camps. There is no audience here to be swayed.

At times there is a usefulness in debating with whackadoodle creationists to refine your arguments, but at some point debating with them at all becomes a lesson in pure idiocy. I occasionally will post just to derive from fun from mockery, but it's effectively impossible to have an intelligent discussion with people who will deny the testable properties of water that anyone can do in their kitchen sink because their interpretation of their Religion demands it despite the fact that it creates all sorts of monster theological problems with the nature of their God.

Every time some lunatic tries to argue that Evolution isn't valid because it's a theory I bring up Germ and Gravity to the point out how they're basically ignorant fools who are giant hypocrites. But that's for me and other to laugh at. I'm under no impression that these people who fail to understand what a scientific theory will realize just how inconsistent their views are.

There's always a lurker. Devotee's will post 'lying for jesus' crap until the cows come home. It gets convincing after a while if there's no one bothering to post the facts.
 
There's always a lurker. Devotee's will post 'lying for jesus' crap until the cows come home. It gets convincing after a while if there's no one bothering to post the facts.

I don't think so. You can check who's viewing what posts and rarely do you see a guest account viewing evolution vs creation threads.
 
Time for a refresher for the necessarily forgetful/those in denial.

Gould said:
The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution.
First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory"...
[.....]
Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them...
[.....]
Yet amidst all this turmoil No biologist has been lead to doubt the Fact that evolution occurred; we are debating How it happened. We are all trying to explain the same thing: the tree of evolutionary descent linking all organisms by ties of genealogy.

Creationists pervert and caricature this debate by conveniently neglecting the Common conviction that underlies it, and by Falsely suggesting that evolutionists now doubt the very phenomenon we are struggling to understand.
[.....]
The entire creationist program includes little more than a rhetorical attempt to falsify evolution by presenting supposed contradictions among its supporters...
That was Gould (RIP) on Quote mining, without using the phrase.
In fact, HE has been quote-Mined/Misrepresented here previously by some, and all over the net for that matter.
 
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We see alot of Wacky anti-evolutionists here of late.
Completely Off-the-wall Jesus Freaks with supposed contradictions in evolution.

This poster Cannot debate evolution at all.

So only 'Jesus Freaks' would question many of the premises of current evolution beliefs and theologies?

Here's an example of evolution theologists and self-described 'Intellectuals' peddling self-serving myths:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

It's typical in the aspect that this particular myth, which is still regurgitated today, takes a slim piece of information and blows it up far out of proportion as a propaganda play, and much of what 'evolution' worshippers keep peddling as 'facts' aren't actual facts, just assumptions and explanations with little actual evidence to point to. My fave is the bizarre claim that a collection of fossils from extinct species of apes all of which would fit on my Kitchen table, is somehow 'definitive and conclusive evidence of human evolution over millions of years, just never mind all those huge gaps in that timeline ...

Another of my fave invented 'scientific theories' of is the 'punctuated equilibrium' hand wave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

It's obvious that in most cases these 'intellectuals' are just making most of it up as they go along, especially with the claims that life can be chronologically dated by DNA claims as well. And never mind some of the other 'science' conflicts with that last faith based belief.
 
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So only 'Jesus Freaks' would question many of the premises of current evolution beliefs and theologies?
Here's an example of evolution theologists and self-described 'Intellectuals' peddling self-serving myths:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth
It's typical in the aspect that this particular myth, which is still regurgitated today, takes a slim piece of information and blows it up far out of proportion as a propaganda play, and much of what 'evolution' worshippers keep peddling as 'facts' aren't actual facts, just assumptions and explanations with little actual evidence to point to. My fave is the bizarre claim that a collection of fossils from extinct species of apes all of which would fit on my Kitchen table, is somehow 'definitive and conclusive evidence of human evolution over millions of years, just never mind all those huge gaps in that timeline ...
Another of my fave invented 'scientific theories' of is the 'punctuated equilibrium' hand wave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium
It's obvious that in most cases these 'intellectuals' are just making most of it up as they go along, especially with the claims that life can be chronologically dated by DNA claims as well. And never mind some of the other 'science' conflicts with that last faith based belief.
First, for clarification and everyone else..
Wikipedia is Linked above but NEVER quoted.
And of course, most Relevant, Oberon doesn't Cite Wikipedia... on Evolution!

This thinly veiled stealth-creationist/religionist poster is comparing Flat Earth to Evoluton.
He's Dissing P-E, a common sense tweak of evo theory - because - no reason given.

My last post to Oberon dispatched his Nonsense, and went Unanswered, and still serves Here.
Now I'll highlight some portions.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philo...lution-vs-creationism-233.html#post1065413364

mbig to Oberon said:
Actually, you've described yourself as 'little a' atheist', but obviously are a at Least a little c' creationist/godist' because
there are No non-supernatural theories to explain life's progression besides evolution, and there are No 'rational creationist criticisms'... And you've posted No links for them.

If you believe Creationism is just as valid/should be taught, you are a deist. (and not scientificaly literate)
You've also posted the NT is excellent history and written with 20 years of Christ's death.
Definitely 'little c' creationist/godist.

In another post in this string, you call Both Punctuated Eqiuilibrium AND more gradual progressions ridiculous, and claim life's [4 BILLION Year progression] is sudden/too sudden to be explained by evolution.

The theory of Evolution has gotten nothing but Re-enforced by every new science that's emerged in the last amazingly rigorous 150 years.

Beyond tens of thousands predictable-only-BY-evo-intermediate-species New Fossils ALL Found in the right geologic strata, there's Isotopic Dating, DNA, etc. ANY one of them could have proved evo wrong but, Of Course, ALL are consistent with it.
Evolution is a Fact as well as a theory. (like Gravity)
 
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