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Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

tecoyah said:
I just had to read and agree to the rules of this forum because I apparently insulted someone by indicating they were somewhat dense....so I cannot reply to this fittingly. Instead I will attempt to explain my opinion is a less confrontational way.

I appreciate your opinions and unfortunately find them lacking, to me at least it seems you approach this with a predisposed bias that directs your thoughts toward an agenda that is not reality based. While there might be merit in your personal choices of intellectual pursuit, these are not amongst the mainstream.
It seems the understanding of evolution theory you have is somewhat limited and prevents you from discussing it in a way most consider fluent or worthwhile. This said, It is difficult to approach your Original post with commentary that might continue a civil debate.

Have a sparkly day!
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Golly....what a happy post!!!
Much nicer than calling people dense!
Who could possibly be offended?
 
Rainman05 said:
You're hopeless. I'm not going to bother explaining you things you should have learned in 5th grade chemistry.
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ALTER2EGO -to- RAINMAN05:

Just like I figured, you did not have a clue about Periodic Law until I explained it to you. Imagine that: in my OP I spoke of elements and Periodic Table, and I stated that it is referred to in the scientific word as "Law". Those are all clues that the average adult should know as referring to Periodic Law. Clues that you did not pick up on, mind you, but you are supposed to be teaching me?

POST 9
WEBLINK: http://www.debatepolitics.com/philo...re-evidence-god-accidents.html#post1063323311
Alter2Ego said:
Rainman05 said:
Alter2Ego said:
2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?
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What law?
Ofc the atoms are related to one another... all atoms are atoms. The fact that you have an atom with the atomic mass of 14 or 16 it's still an atom. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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ALTER2EGO -to- RAINMAN05:

I am talking about Periodic Law, which was applied to the Periodic Table by the scientists in academia.


"PERIODIC LAW, in chemistry, law stating that many of the physical and chemical properties of the elements tend to recur in a systematic manner with increasing atomic number. Progressing from the lightest to the heaviest atoms, certain properties of the elements approximate those of precursors at regular intervals of 2, 8, 18, and 32. For example, the 2d element (helium) is similar in its chemical behavior to the 10th (neon), as well as to the 18th (argon), the 36th (krypton), the 54th (xenon), and the 86th (radon). The chemical family called the halogens, composed of elements 9 (fluorine), 17 (chlorine), 35 (bromine), 53 (iodine), and 85 (astatine), is an extremely reactive family."​
PERIODIC LAW


So clearly I know what I am talking about and you, on the other hand, apparently do not have a clue about Periodic Law.
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Now, to save face, you put on the outraged act and tell me the above, including that tripe about 5th grade chemistry.
 
Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is imprecision/inaccuracy/inexactness, which is always the result of an accident or a spontaneous event that happens by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results." (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)



Notice that an accident, by definition, is something unplanned aka it "happened by chance." Notice the similarity of the definition for "spontaneous" (as in "spontaneous event").


DEFINITION OF "SPONTANEOUS":
"Spontaneous means unplanned or done on impulse."
Spontaneous dictionary definition | spontaneous defined




AGRUMENT #1 FOR AN INTELLIGENT CREATOR:

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. This precision renders the evolution theory and Big Bang theory mere fiction, because both theories rely on accidents or spontaneous events. Precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Rather, precision requires deliberation.

Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of those 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography)


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?

3. Evolution and Big Bang theories both rely upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution or Big Bang were credible explanations for the existence of life on earth or the existence of millions of planets in the heavens, how do either theory account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that the Periodic Table has been assigned the word "LAW"?
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Thanks

I did my best work on earth. Making it all look natural and un-designed with some really dumb designs was tricky.
I particularly liked making over 350,000 different species of beetles for no particular reason other than I was bored.

signed

Q

(Q Continuum)
 
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Alter2Ego said:
For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome.
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Why on earth do you imagine this is in anyway logically binding?


The reverse of precision is imprecision/inaccuracy/inexactness, which is always the result of an accident or a spontaneous event that happens by chance with no one guiding the outcome.
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The evidence of human inaccuracies abounds, as do natural accuracies. The idea that there is any link between randomness and inaccuracy is patently absurd.


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. This precision renders the evolution theory and Big Bang theory mere fiction, because both theories rely on accidents or spontaneous events....
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Congratulations on begging the question!

In fact, "precision" can often be accounted for by selective pressures. If being precise happens to provide an advantage, then organisms that are more precise in that way will flourish. However, precision also often has its own costs, such as requiring more cognitive "processing power." As a result, we see how human perception and cognition is rife with shortcuts -- ranging from optical illusions, to change blindness, to social heuristics -- because processing speed can often be more important than cognitive precision.


Evolution and Big Bang theories both rely upon things happening by chance aka at random.
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Actually, the very structure of reality itself is fundamentally based on chance (probability). Read up on quantum mechanics one of these days. You might want to take a biology class first, though.
 
So elements behaving the same way because they have the same amount of electrons available to make chemical bonds = god?

Just to keep it simple (Similar structure = similar reactivity = similar properties.

Here a few links to help the OP should they really want to learn instead of posting facile and flimsy arguments that reveal their ignorance on the subject matter.

Chemistry 101: General Chemistry Course - Online Video Lessons | Education Portal

If that is too much to digest.. this narrows it down to the section of that course that is more specific to the topic at hand:

The Periodic Table Videos - General Chemistry Tutorials & Lectures

Still to broad?

The Periodic Table: Properties of Groups and Periods - General Chemistry Video

and Valence Electrons and Energy Levels of Atoms of Elements - General Chemistry Video

and for the super duper lazy way out in case they are not compelled to actually read up on the subject.. here lets distill it to just one part of a paragraph from information in the links above

In the late 1800s, when only 60 or so elements had been discovered, Mendeleev decided to arrange the elements in order of increasing atomic weight. While doing this, he also organized them so elements with similar characteristics were grouped together.
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The information is there and it is free.. I held your hand this far (farther than I should have to IMO), the path is there, start waking and LEARN.
 
Visbek said:
Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"
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Why on earth do you imagine this is in anyway logically binding?
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ALTER2EGO -to- VISBEK:

Why on earth do you imagine repeated precision as evidence that an an intelligent being did not guide the outcome be logically binding?

Until you can present this forum with repeated examples of accidental precision among human creations, your above comment will remain irrelevant and the conclusions in my OP remain examples of truth.


Visbek said:
Alter2Ego said:
The reverse of precision is imprecision/inaccuracy/inexactness, which is always the result of an accident or a spontaneous event that happens by chance with no one guiding the outcome.
Click to expand...
The evidence of human inaccuracies abounds, as do natural accuracies. The idea that there is any link between randomness and inaccuracy is patently absurd.
Click to expand...

You are right. There are accuracies in the natural world, while there are always human inaccuracies. So what point are you attempting to make, considering I presented a example of natural precision in my OP aka the example of the elements on the Periodic Table?
 
Visbek said:
Alter2Ego said:
Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. This precision renders the evolution theory and Big Bang theory mere fiction, because both theories rely on accidents or spontaneous events. Precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Rather, precision requires deliberation.
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Congratulations on begging the question!
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ALTER2EGO -to- VISBEK:

Congratulations on misusing the term "begging the question." One can only beg the question by presenting an argument that is based entirely on an unproven conclusion.

"begging the question

By Richard Nordquist

Grammar & Composition Expert


Definition:

A fallacy in which the premise of an argument presupposes the truth of its conclusion; in other words, the argument takes for granted what it is supposed to prove.

Used in this sense, the word beg means "to avoid," not "ask" or "lead to." Begging the question is also known as circular argument, tautology, and petitio principii."
Begging the Question - Definition and Examples
​


In case you did not notice, I presented evidence of precision in my OP aka the elements on the Periodic Table, which is considered an example of precision by scientists. So my conclusion about what is "precision" was not presupposed, it was proven by the fact that the scientific world considers the elements on the Periodic Table to be "Law" aka precision.

As stated in my OP, laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."

Anything that happens with "unvarying uniformity" is, by definition, an example of precision. So your misapplication of the term "begging the question" is hardly a rebuttal; now is it? If anything, it is a stalling technique that is used to impress people with the use of semantics. Well guess what? Nobody here is impressed by your inappropriate use of the term "begging the question," because it does not apply to my OP.
 
Alter2Ego said:
....


In case you did not notice, I presented evidence of Precision in my OP aka the elements on the Periodic Table, which is considered an example of Precision by scientists. So my conclusion about what is "precision" was not presupposed, it was proven by the fact that the scientific world considers the elements on the Periodic Table to be "Law" aka precision.
As stated in my OP, laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."
Anything that happens with "unvarying uniformity" is, by definition, an example of precision. So your misapplication of the term "begging the question" is hardly a rebuttal; now is it? If anything, it is a stalling technique that is used to impress people with the use of semantics. Well guess what? Nobody here is impressed by your inappropriate use of the term "begging the question," because it does not apply to my OP.
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mbig to ALTER2EGO

The Periodic Table is a MAN-MADE arrangement of the Elements.
Just as TAXONOMY (Genus/species/subspecies) is a MAN-MADE arrangement of Life on Earth.
It is "IMPERFECT".

Periodic table - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"..Placing the elements into categories and subcategories based on shared properties is IMPERFECT. There is a spectrum of properties within each category and it is not hard to find overlaps at the boundaries, as is the case with most classification schemes.[23] Beryllium, for example, is classified as an alkaline earth metal although its amphoteric chemistry and tendency to mostly form covalent compounds are both attributes of a chemically weak or other metal. Radon is classified as a nonmetal and a noble gas yet has some cationic chemistry that is more characteristic of a metal. Other classification schemes are Possible such as the division of the elements into mineralogical occurrence categories, or crystalline structures. Categorising the elements in this Fashion dates back to at least 1869 when Hinrichs[24] wrote that simple boundary lines could be drawn on the periodic table to show elements having like properties, such as the metals and the nonmetals, or the gaseous elements.
[........]
Other conventions and variations
[........]
Alternative layouts
Main article: Alternative periodic tables

800px-Elementspiral_%28polyatomic%29.svg.png

Theodor Benfey's spiral periodic table

There are MANY periodic tables with layouts OTHER than that of the common or standard form. Within 100 years of the appearance of Mendeleev's table in 1869 it has been estimated that around 700 Different periodic table versions were published.[81] As well as numerous rectangular variations, other periodic table formats have included, for example,[n 8] circular, cubic, cylindrical, edificial (building-like), helical, lemniscate, octagonal prismatic, pyramidal, separated, spherical, spiral, and triangular forms. Such alternatives are often developed to highlight or emphasize chemical or physical properties of the elements that are not as apparent in traditional periodic tables.[81]

A popular[82] alternative layout is that of Theodor Benfey (1960). The elements are arranged in a continuous spiral, with hydrogen at the center and the transition metals, lanthanides, and actinides occupying peninsulas.[83]
[.......]
Optimal form

The many different forms of periodic table have prompted the Question of whether there is an optimal or definitive form of periodic table. The answer to this question is thought to depend on whether the chemical periodicity seen to occur among the elements has an underlying truth, effectively hard-wired into the universe, or if any such periodicity is instead the product of subjective human interpretation, contingent upon the circumstances, beliefs and predilections of human observers. An objective basis for chemical periodicity would settle the questions about the location of hydrogen and helium, and the composition of group 3. Such an underlying truth, If it exists, is thought to have Not yet been discovered. In its absence, the many DIFFERENT forms of periodic table can be regarded as variations on the theme of chemical periodicity, each of which explores and emphasizes Different aspects, properties, perspectives and relationships of and among the elements.[n 12] The ubiquity of the standard or medium-long periodic table is thought to be a result of this layout having a good balance of features in terms of EASE of construction and size, and its depiction of atomic order and periodic trends.[50][121]""​
 
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