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There is no such thing as the "secular" western

Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Can you tell me where these parliaments which had nothing to do with any sort of Viking inheritance were?

Also where were these individualistic societies?

Explain to me the Connection, HISTORICALLY !!!

Nomads in the middle east, mongols, Huns, various barbarian tribes, beduins .... there were plenty of them.

Are you telling me that Huns, Mongols and other nomads had formal parliaments? That's news to me. I also don't put them, as a whole, in the individualist camp.

The connection between the fierce individuality of Viking culture and the individualist attitude of reading the Bible for yourself which did not happen in the lands which had not had extensive Viking cultural and population input is my point. Hussites excepted.

You want the enlightenment to be a product of Christianity. If that was so you would have to explain why it did not happen in the Eastern Orthodox lands and the Catholic lands.
 
Again, what is unique about western society, i.e the enlightenment principles, come from Christianity.

Paganism didn't create imperial rome.

Christianity DID create enlightenment europe.

If Rome was not pagan what was it? Why did the enlightenment not happen in the Christian bits of the world which were never invaded by Vikings?
 
1.Ok fair enough, but it sounds to me like your claiming that prior to (Christianity?) religion right and wrong weren't only not know, it couldn't be known. To me that's like saying that prior to modern medicine people didn't know what was making them sick and because they didn't know, they couldn't even say that they were sick.

No, I'm saying prior to christianity we had a whole different world view that give manking morality that did not, and could not translate to enlightenment values.

First, I never meant to imply that all people think this way. You and I both know that once a person is elevated to a position of some power over others that the desire to improve their position at the expense of others can run contrary to to the existence of the species. In most cases that's bad, but I concede that, in some contexts that it may have been good.

However, you mention tribes. In order to have a tribe people have to extend rights to others. If everyone felt that they were free to act however they wanted whenever they wanted, we'd never get anything done, and frankly would probably never evolved as a specie. Rights are extended to you, by those around you. I think you'll find that the better people are at this, the more successful they are as a society.

In plenty of cases.
You have to extent rights to people IN YOUR TRIBE, and really only those that benefit the tribe ... and if the tribe grows, morality changes with it, which is why north American native americans had such different morality than say, the Aztecs, i'ts purely utalitarian .... but remember I'm talking European enlightenment values, this is primarily a historical question.

I agree 100%, I don't think anyone has the right to anything. I argue all the time that the Constitution says that all men are created equal and are endowed with rights, blah, blah....It simply isn't true, but it proves my point 100%, the power of the Constitution and the force and influence that it projects comes from the people that believe that it is true.

Does that make it a religion? No. I'd call it an idea that people share. Most people don't worship it (I can't account for the crazies). It expressly creates a system in which it can adapt and change as new information and evidence comes to light.

The Constitution has a process for change, religion does not.

No it isn't a religion .... HOWEVER, it's based on, and dependant on, and comes from a Christian worldview.

Ok, so I could have done better with the wording on that, I was sleepy....I could have just said something like "social advancement".....We were doing fine in the roman empire? We didn't know what the moon was, we didn't understand tides, we knew almost nothing of what caused sickness (this list goes on and on and on....). I'm going to have to disagree......

That's simply technological and scientifc things .... not what I'm talking about here really.

1. If the word morality means anything, and health and well-being, sickness and suffering are things that can be quantified, then all one has to do, is look at the circumstances to judge. The only problem that we are faced with when making moral decisions is information.

Example, would it be immoral for me to cut off your hand? most people might answer yes, but some might say, "well that depends". So if you were bit by a snake, and you believed that it's venom would kill you if you didn't cut off your hand and you asked me to cut it off, would that be immoral? If you believe that intention matters, then if my intention is to save your life is my causing you suffering in order to prevent an even greater suffering immoral?

Now I take you to a doctor. I show the doc a pic of the snake that bit you and he tells us that the snake wasn't poisonous, is what I did, immoral in light of new information?

The point is a simple one, the problem of morality is that that almost any action can be deemed moral in the right context, the problem is always one of information.

So in order to determine the right or wrong of a situation we have to know the context of the situation that the people in it understood. Now that doesn't forgive outright ignorance. If you do something and you had an obligation to understand it and you chose not to, and it lead to the harm of others, that would, in most cases I can think of, be immoral.

What about people that derive pleasure from hurting themselves? Who am I to say that they are wrong. Again, if hurt and pain have any meaning, it's because they can lead to bad outcomes. if you subjectively feel pleasure causing yourself harm, than you are objectively causing yourself harm, then it is immoral.

Again, the same goes for someone deriving pleasure from causing others pain, logically, we prefer to avoid pain more than we wish to experience pleasure. My evidence? If a woman has a husband who treats her like a queen 29 days out of each month and spend the other day beating her for the entire day, would she call that "good"? Most healthy people would say no. There is plenty of evidence that demonstrates that avoiding pain is preferable to experiencing happiness, so my avoiding pain trumps another persons experiencing pleasure at my expense (again generally speaking)

You can ask who am I to say that these ideas are true. I would simply respond, that if the word moral, happiness and suffering have any meaning, the evidence to its truth speaks for itself independent of what I think about it.

1. Are you reffering to utalitrianism? If so then that's the morality of organ traffickers, people who kill 1 guy to give organs to 5, that's moral according to utalitarianism (but it IS immoral).

But the point is why does utalitarianism hold? I mean Genghis Kahn was increasing the well being of the people he cared about ... why was he wrong? Given naturalism?

I think I've laid out my case above. The problem is that morality is difficult because there can be millions of factors that influence the context, we often don't know peoples true internal motivations and Information known at the time a decision is made is often different than in the future when people are asked to judge those decisions.

If I had to kill 1 person to save, 2 is that moral? How about to save 10, how about 1000? Is there a clear dividing line?

If I had to choose between saving my dogs life and saving a child (I didn't know) from a serious (non-life threading) injury, would it be immoral to save the dog?

You're assuming utalitarianism, and I don't know why we should assume that.
 
1. Are you telling me that Huns, Mongols and other nomads had formal parliaments? That's news to me. I also don't put them, as a whole, in the individualist camp.

2. The connection between the fierce individuality of Viking culture and the individualist attitude of reading the Bible for yourself which did not happen in the lands which had not had extensive Viking cultural and population input is my point. Hussites excepted.

3. You want the enlightenment to be a product of Christianity. If that was so you would have to explain why it did not happen in the Eastern Orthodox lands and the Catholic lands.

1. No they were individualistic though, just as much so as the vikings.

2. The vikings DID'NT have parliments, they had democratic courts, not parliaments.

3. because those places blocked public access to the bible, I already explained that, the protestant areas had the bible and the new testament in the public, leading to all sorts of revolutions of thought.

Vikings had'nt been around for 500 years by then.
 
If Rome was not pagan what was it? Why did the enlightenment not happen in the Christian bits of the world which were never invaded by Vikings?

It was Pagan, but Paganism was NOT what shaped the Roman empire, militarism did, it shaped almost everything about it.

It happened in places that had access to the New testamenet ... the Vikings invaded Russian, Turkey, tons of places, there were tons of places vikings invaded 500 years earlier, there is 0 corrolation AT ALL!!!
 
It was Pagan, but Paganism was NOT what shaped the Roman empire, militarism did, it shaped almost everything about it.

It happened in places that had access to the New testamenet ... the Vikings invaded Russian, Turkey, tons of places, there were tons of places vikings invaded 500 years earlier, there is 0 corrolation AT ALL!!!

Viking means pirate/corsair. The Norse who established some cities in Russia were not that they were Swedish traders. Turkey was not invaded by Vikings. There is a strong correlation between the lands where the Viking culture was influential and the lands where Protestantism happened. Being individualistic enough to read the Bible for yourself, I am arguing, was the cause of both the success of Protestantism and the enlightenment.

P.S. I don't call a society such as the Huns or Mongols where tribe and Khan were all powerful and demanded total loyalty individualistic.
 
Viking means pirate/corsair. The Norse who established some cities in Russia were not that they were Swedish traders. Turkey was not invaded by Vikings. There is a strong correlation between the lands where the Viking culture was influential and the lands where Protestantism happened. Being individualistic enough to read the Bible for yourself, I am arguing, was the cause of both the success of Protestantism and the enlightenment.

P.S. I don't call a society such as the Huns or Mongols where tribe and Khan were all powerful and demanded total loyalty individualistic.

Being individualistic enough to read the bible foryourself??? No, being Lucky enough to have the bible translated in Your own Language, i.e. german and English.

The Huns and Mongols were individualistic and the Khan was not all powerful.
 
Being individualistic enough to read the bible foryourself??? No, being Lucky enough to have the bible translated in Your own Language, i.e. german and English.

The Huns and Mongols were individualistic and the Khan was not all powerful.

You will never even think about my points. The Khan was all powerful. How do you think he was able to create a highly centralized well organized and disciplined military machine? Vikings never managed anything similar. There's a reason.

Protestant Bibles were translated into lots of languages. If you were Italian you probably didn't need that in the first place, Latin being so close to Italian. You will need to explain why Italy did not have the enlightenment despite it's technological lead and abundance of trade with other cultures supplying new ideas for it to transform and improve. Why did that happen only in the much more barbarian North?

Also care to tell me about that Viking invasion of Turkey? You say your authority comes from your intelligent knowledge of history. I don't think you have such a knowledge.
 
You will never even think about my points. The Khan was all powerful. How do you think he was able to create a highly centralized well organized and disciplined military machine? Vikings never managed anything similar. There's a reason.

Protestant Bibles were translated into lots of languages. If you were Italian you probably didn't need that in the first place, Latin being so close to Italian. You will need to explain why Italy did not have the enlightenment despite it's technological lead and abundance of trade with other cultures supplying new ideas for it to transform and improve. Why did that happen only in the much more barbarian North?

Also care to tell me about that Viking invasion of Turkey? You say your authority comes from your intelligent knowledge of history. I don't think you have such a knowledge.

The Khan was extremely charismatic and United tribes together, it wasn't like the Roman Empire or anyhting like that, it lasted for Geghis, then died out, the Mongol society was nomadic, tribal, and just as individualistic as viking culture.

The Vikings invaded England and gave it William the conqueror ....

If you were Italian you didn't have a bible, at all, because the Church controlled it.

The North WAS NOT BARBARIAN .... this was the 1500s, not the 900s, big difference dude, there were no vikings, viking influence had been non existant for about 500 years .... There is 0 Connection.

The Vikings didn't invade Turkey, but they had a lot of influence there.
 
The Khan was extremely charismatic and United tribes together, it wasn't like the Roman Empire or anyhting like that, it lasted for Geghis, then died out, the Mongol society was nomadic, tribal, and just as individualistic as viking culture.

It lasted a bit longer than that. The various successor states across most of the world's land area continued to go about killing people on a large scale for many years. It was also a highly rigid society which repressed individualism.

The Vikings invaded England and gave it William the conqueror ....

What???? Have you any historical knowledge at all?

If you were Italian you didn't have a bible, at all, because the Church controlled it.

And why did this control work in Italy and not in Holland? The Spanish empire controlled Spain and the Low Countries. The reformation and enlightenment happened in a particularly select bit of it.

The North WAS NOT BARBARIAN .... this was the 1500s, not the 900s, big difference dude, there were no vikings, viking influence had been non existant for about 500 years .... There is 0 Connection.

We call ourselves Anglo-Saxons, the Angels have not been a recognizable tribe for a lot longer than that.

The Vikings didn't invade Turkey, but they had a lot of influence there.

News to me, care to explain?
 
1. It lasted a bit longer than that. The various successor states across most of the world's land area continued to go about killing people on a large scale for many years. It was also a highly rigid society which repressed individualism.



2. What???? Have you any historical knowledge at all?



3. And why did this control work in Italy and not in Holland? The Spanish empire controlled Spain and the Low Countries. The reformation and enlightenment happened in a particularly select bit of it.



4. We call ourselves Anglo-Saxons, the Angels have not been a recognizable tribe for a lot longer than that.



5. News to me, care to explain?

1. That simply isn't true, do you have a Source for that? the Mongols, were nomadic, the Khan was basically just a military leader.

2. William the Conqueror was a Norman ....

3. Because Italy Was much more in the Pocket of the vatican.

4. Ok ... again, no viking influence for 500 years when the enlightenment happened. 0 whatsoever.

5. Tons of trade, hell the Byzantine bodyguard was made up of vikings.
 
1. That simply isn't true, do you have a Source for that? the Mongols, were nomadic, the Khan was basically just a military leader.

You have never heard of the Golden Horde? The Mughals? And those are just some of the ones outside China.

2. William the Conqueror was a Norman ....

You said that the Vikings gave England to him....What?

3. Because Italy Was much more in the Pocket of the vatican.

Why? Why so in Spain and not in Holland?

4. Ok ... again, no viking influence for 500 years when the enlightenment happened. 0 whatsoever.

So what is the cause of the reformation and why did it happen only where it did? You have utterly failed to answer this so far.

5. Tons of trade, hell the Byzantine bodyguard was made up of vikings.

The Byzantine Emperor's mercenary troops called Varangians were not exactly massively culturally influential in the Eastern Roman Empire. There were lots of mercenaries. And the Eastern Roman Empire was not Turkey at all. Turkey only happened in 1919/20. It's an odd thing for a student of history to say that the Vikings invaded Turkey. I don't think you know very much about history. I do not rate your hypothesis.
 
1, You have never heard of the Golden Horde? The Mughals? And those are just some of the ones outside China.

2. William the Conqueror was a Norman ....

You said that the Vikings gave England to him....What?



3. Why? Why so in Spain and not in Holland?



4. So what is the cause of the reformation and why did it happen only where it did? You have utterly failed to answer this so far.



5. The Byzantine Emperor's mercenary troops called Varangians were not exactly massively culturally influential in the Eastern Roman Empire. There were lots of mercenaries. And the Eastern Roman Empire was not Turkey at all. Turkey only happened in 1919/20. It's an odd thing for a student of history to say that the Vikings invaded Turkey. I don't think you know very much about history. I do not rate your hypothesis.

1. Yes, not exactly a very strong centralized government.

2. He CONQUERED England

3. Nothing to do With the vikings WHO WERE NOT AROUND AND HAD 0 INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD FOR 500 years !!!!

4. Translation of the bible into the venacular.

5. Not just the troops, the trading and so on .... I Call it Turkey because that's what the area is called now ... no need to be anal about it.
 
2. He CONQUERED England.

So when you said that the Vikings had given William England you were wrong then. Good to have cleared that up.

5. Not just the troops, the trading and so on .... I Call it Turkey because that's what the area is called now ... no need to be anal about it.

So you think that the Vikings had a strong influence on the Eastern Roman Empire's culture which was still a decisive factor in the Ottoman Empire's culture and indeed survives in the modern Turkish state. Wrong again.

4. Translation of the bible into the venacular.

Which happened all over Europe. The question you have utterly failed to answer is why it took hold in the places where it did. I am confident that this is because if you address this you will have to abandon your wish to credit Christianity with the enlightenment. You know this so you will never answer the question.
 
1. So when you said that the Vikings had given William England you were wrong then. Good to have cleared that up.



2. So you think that the Vikings had a strong influence on the Eastern Roman Empire's culture which was still a decisive factor in the Ottoman Empire's culture and indeed survives in the modern Turkish state. Wrong again.



3. Which happened all over Europe. The question you have utterly failed to answer is why it took hold in the places where it did. I am confident that this is because if you address this you will have to abandon your wish to credit Christianity with the enlightenment. You know this so you will never answer the question.

1. No William WAS a viking ... i.e. a Norman ....

2. No I didn't, they had no influence in any culture by the time the 1500s came around other than maybe parts of Northern Britain, iceland and greenland, and scandanavia.

3. It didn't happen all over europe, it happened first in England and Germany.
 
2. No I didn't, they had no influence in any culture by the time the 1500s came around other than maybe parts of Northern Britain, iceland and greenland, and scandanavia.

Just where the industrial revolution and enlightenment was strongest then.
 
Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
2. No I didn't, they had no influence in any culture by the time the 1500s came around other than maybe parts of Northern Britain, iceland and greenland, and scandanavia.
Just where the industrial revolution and enlightenment was strongest then.

Not really.

OK, where did the enlightenment and industrial revolution happen then????
 
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