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PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God[W:52]

Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- KAL'STANG:

Exactly, gravity is invisible, thus the viewpoint description given by Moses that when viewed from outer space, earth appears to be "hanging upon nothing" when viewed from outer space


"He [God]is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7)





If an earthbound person looks upwards, they cannot possible see the earth's globe floating in space. It requires a reverse position: someone in outer space looking downwards. Interestingly, the description viewpoint given by Moses was written some 3,500 years before humans mastered space flight. Astronauts in the 20th century confirmed the viewpoint description given by Moses, namely, that earth indeed appears to be "hanging upon nothing."
Click to expand...

Except that your contention is that God gave Moses a description of the Earth and its point in space. Since one would assume that God knows what he's talking about he would not have said that the Earth is "hanging on nothing". Unless again, your contention is that God gave a half assed description? You also seem to be ignoring that Moses and Isaiah both thought that the Earth was the Center of the Universe....do you really think that God would not have included a description of where the Earth was in relation to everything else when describeing the Earth to them? At the very least it would make sense that he would have at the very least mentioned that the Earth was moving around the sun if nothing else.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Moderator's Warning:
Alter's choice of font and font size are irrelevent to the discussion at hand. Stick to the topic or be booted.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Ceist said:
Alter2Ego said:
Ceist said:
Job 26:10 "He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

Isaiah 40:22 "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in; "

Job 26:11 "The pillars of heaven tremble"
Click to expand...


Below is part of the context to Job 26:10. It is in the very next verse, which you only partially quoted. You deliberately deleted the last portion of Job 26:11 so that you could ignore its significance. I will point out the significance of the latter portion of Job 26:11 by bolding it in my quotation below and by asking you a question about it.


"The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof."(Job 26:11 -- King James)

Notice that verse 11 speaks of pillars of heaven that have the ability to become "astonished"-- as though literal pillars can have feelings. That is the first clue that you are reading figurative speech.


QUESTION #1 to CEIST: Are you telling this forum that you believe there are literal pillars in heaven and that those pillars can become astonished?
Click to expand...


I'm astonished that you still think your claims have any credibility at all.

And what's with the large font? It's kind of childish.
Click to expand...


ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:

I am astonished that you thought you could get past me with only a partial quotation of Job 26:11. It turns out that when the complete verse 11 is quoted, the context indicates Job 26:10-11 are using figurative speech.


Ceist said:
I'm astonished that you still think your claims have any credibility at all.

And what's with the large font? It's kind of childish.
Click to expand...

I am equally astonished that you think that you can divert attention by making an issue of font size. That ploy will not work, fella. You were debunked on your fallacious claim that Job 26:10-11 are talking about a flat earth, and you were caught deleting portions of a scriptural quotation.


Prepare yourself to be debunked on all of those other verses that you copy-pasted at Post 4, which you doubtless down-loaded from some third-party, atheist website. For your convenience, here is the weblink to Post 4 and your out-of-context verses that are pasted there.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/philo...bible-inspired-god-w-52-a.html#post1063231990
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Ceist said:
Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- DRAGONFLY:

The oldest known secular writing is dated about 6,000 years, which harmonizes with Bible chronology: that humans have only been on this planet 6,000 years.
Click to expand...
Methinks someone has been partaking in too many fundy fizzy drinks.

Who do you think made these?

https://www.britishmuseum.org/about_us/departments/prehistory_and_europe.aspx

Prehistoric Art: Origins, Types, Characteristics
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:

As a rule, I do not click bare weblinks when they are not accompanied by a quotation from the source. I made an exception this time.


Your sources did not contradict anything that I wrote above to Dragonfly, namely, that the oldest human writing is only dated 6,000 years according to secular sources and Bible chronology.


Both of your above sources are talking about "prehistoric art" rather than writings--accompanied by their unsubstantiated claims regarding the age of the prehistoric art. Not only that, while one of your sources (British Museum) speculates that the prehistoric art dates back two million years, your other source comes right out and admits the dating is unreliable.

"Dating of Prehistoric Art
A number of highly sophisticated techniques - such as radiometric testing and thermoluminescence - are now available to help establish the date of ancient artifacts from the Paleolithic era and later. However, dating of ancient art is not an exact science, and results are often dependent on tests performed on the 'layer' of earth and debris in which the artifact was lying, or - in the case of rock engraving - an analysis of the content and style of the markings. (Animal drawings using regular side-profiles, for instance, are typically older than those using three-quarter profiles.) For a chronological list of dates and events associated with Stone Age culture, see: Prehistoric Art Timeline."
Prehistoric Art: Origins, Types, Characteristics
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Kal'Stang said:
Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- KAL'STANG:

The Prophet Isaiah was giving a viewpoint description of how earth appears to someone above it. In fact, he even identified whose viewpoint he was giving. Notice the words that are bolded within the two verses that are quoted below.


"{22} There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell, {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)
Click to expand...

Why would God give a description of just half of the world? If you're given a description of a ball that has 2 colors so that you can help find the ball, but the person just tells you about 1 color are you going to know what you're looking for? Are you going to be looking for a ball with one color...or two? Do you contend that God did a half assed job at given a description?
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- KAL'STANG:

Jehovah inspired Isaiah to write a viewpoint description that can only be seen by one who is above earth, in outer space. Astronauts in the 20th century confirmed this viewpoint description. Had Jehovah, in his wisdom, not provided a viewpoint description that humans could later confirm, you would be arguing that the Bible is wrong because it gave a viewpoint description that only God could see.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

This is truly bizarre. :D

I might as well just repeat what I have already posted, but this time in a larger font and pretty colors, like a children's book.

Ceist said:
When those verses I presented (and many more throughout the Bible) are read in context of their surrounding verses and chapters, there is even more confirmation that the Biblical writers were describing the commonly held ANE view of a flat earth with a dome over it.

Sorry, taking 2 verses out of context, ignoring many other verses, then trying to claim that 20th century astronauts confirmed that the verses in the book of Isaiah were referring to a spherical earth, is just absurd.

Your best bet, is to do some broader honest research on the history of cosmological views in the ANE and then read the first few books of the Bible in full, (checking the original Hebrew words and phrases), instead of gullibly swallowing the lies that the fundamentalist Apologist websites you've been reading have told you.
Click to expand...

And here is that pretty picture for you too:

350rxxc.png
 
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Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:

As a rule, I do not click bare weblinks when they are not accompanied by a quotation from the source. I made an exception this time.


Your sources did not contradict anything that I wrote above to Dragonfly, namely, that the oldest human writing is only dated 6,000 years according to secular sources and Bible chronology.


Both of your above sources are talking about "prehistoric art" rather than writings--accompanied by their unsubstantiated claims regarding the age of the prehistoric art. Not only that, while one of your sources (British Museum) speculates that the prehistoric art dates back two million years, your other source comes right out and admits the dating is unreliable.

"Dating of Prehistoric Art
A number of highly sophisticated techniques - such as radiometric testing and thermoluminescence - are now available to help establish the date of ancient artifacts from the Paleolithic era and later. However, dating of ancient art is not an exact science, and results are often dependent on tests performed on the 'layer' of earth and debris in which the artifact was lying, or - in the case of rock engraving - an analysis of the content and style of the markings. (Animal drawings using regular side-profiles, for instance, are typically older than those using three-quarter profiles.) For a chronological list of dates and events associated with Stone Age culture, see: Prehistoric Art Timeline."
Prehistoric Art: Origins, Types, Characteristics
Click to expand...

You also claimed humans have only been on this planet 6000 years. So yes, my sources contradicted your claim.

Your posts are a laugh a minute though. Hard to believe you are actually serious :D
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Dragonfly said:
I always find it amusing when somebody uses a book that's been translated and interpreted into more languages, and more times than McDonalds has sold hamburgers, as some kind of historically accurate and literal text.

If there's any book that's been incorrectly translated more times than "the Bible" I'd like for somebody to point out what that book might be.
Click to expand...

Actually the bible has been proven one of the most accurate books out there. times and places and events have all lined up pretty accurately. many different civilizations that were thought to not exist or be missing have been found with the bible exactly where they were suppose to be.

They have compared dozens of manuscripts and other writings before the books were ever put into the bible.

it is the same reason that many books were rejected. The author could not be verified or the claims in the books did not match other books or even if the author was verified the source of their information and the events they listed could not be.

that is why the book of mary, judas and thomas were rejected as gnostic writings and not included.
they failed to pass the smell test.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

ludin said:
Actually the bible has been proven one of the most accurate books out there.
Click to expand...

:lamo

That's just so funny on every imaginable level.

There's a "smell test" alright.....and how that one specific book has been used and interpreted throughout history has a very pungent stink to it.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Dragonfly said:
:lamo

That's just so funny on every imaginable level.

There's a "smell test" alright.....and how that one specific book has been used and interpreted throughout history has a very pungent stink to it.
Click to expand...

Historical Proof of the Bible | Jesus in history

The Smithsonian Department of Anthropology is reported to have said this about the Bible (referring to history not spiritual teachings.)

“Much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological work. For the most part, historical events described took place and the peoples cited really existed

There are other major institutions that give high credance to the bible and it's historical accuracy.
The historical accuracy of the bible is not in doubt.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

List of literary works by number of translations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which book holds the record for being translated into the most number of languages? - The Times of India

Dr. Joel Hoffman: Five Ways Your Bible Translation Distorts the Original Meaning of the Text

Bible Translations - Why There Are Problems Choosing Bible Translations

I can post hundreds of links....

Many of the books of the bible were written decades, if not centuries after the supposed "events" happened. Most of those fables were simply passed down frm generation to generation by word of mouth.


Comes back to the elementary school game of "pass it down the lane" were a simple sentence is whispered from one student to the next and then the original sentence is compared to the final sentence after going trough a few dozen kids.

Ancient words that had one meaning, have been translated into modern words that have a completely different meaning.

The word "translate" in and of itself is wrought with issues regarding intent and accuracy. Especially when considering a language nobody speaks any more from a time thousands of years ago.

Obviously there are going to be some accurate passages regarding places and events. Kansas exists, but that doesn't mean the Wizard of Oz is an historically accurate book does it?
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Dragonfly said:
List of literary works by number of translations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which book holds the record for being translated into the most number of languages? - The Times of India

Dr. Joel Hoffman: Five Ways Your Bible Translation Distorts the Original Meaning of the Text

Bible Translations - Why There Are Problems Choosing Bible Translations

I can post hundreds of links....

Many of the books of the bible were written decades, if not centuries after the supposed "events" happened. Most of those fables were simply passed down frm generation to generation by word of mouth.


Comes back to the elementary school game of "pass it down the lane" were a simple sentence is whispered from one student to the next and then the original sentence is compared to the final sentence after going trough a few dozen kids.

Ancient words that had one meaning, have been translated into modern words that have a completely different meaning.

The word "translate" in and of itself is wrought with issues regarding intent and accuracy. Especially when considering a language nobody speaks any more from a time thousands of years ago.

Obviously there are going to be some accurate passages regarding places and events. Kansas exists, but that doesn't mean the Wizard of Oz is an historically accurate book does it?
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- DRAGONFLY:

Anybody can post links. The challenge is to quote relevant text from the source and explain how your source supports your argument--which you did not do.


FYI: My rule is to not click bare weblinks. More often than not, it is turns out to be a complete waste of my valuable time because it forces me to read entire blogs, searching for evidence that the opponent claims is written therein. You are the one making the claims, so it is your responsible to briefly quote the relevant portions from your sources.



When do you intend to do that?



The forum is waiting.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Dragonfly said:
I can post hundreds of links....
Click to expand...

And we can post hundreds refuting them.

Dragonfly said:
Many of the books of the bible were written decades, if not centuries after the supposed "events" happened. Most of those fables were simply passed down frm generation to generation by word of mouth.
Click to expand...

The entire New Testament is first century, and the earliest surviving mention of Jesus' resurrection is probably less than a decade after the fact:

Earliest Mention of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ « The Righter Report

Dragonfly said:
Comes back to the elementary school game of "pass it down the lane" were a simple sentence is whispered from one student to the next and then the original sentence is compared to the final sentence after going trough a few dozen kids.
Click to expand...

That argument doesn't work because like in real life, there's always somebody around AT THE TIME to set the record straight. Which is what happens in the school game.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Ceist said:
Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:

As a rule, I do not click bare weblinks when they are not accompanied by a quotation from the source. I made an exception this time.


Your sources did not contradict anything that I wrote above to Dragonfly, namely, that the oldest human writing is only dated 6,000 years according to secular sources and Bible chronology.


Both of your above sources are talking about "prehistoric art" rather than writings--accompanied by their unsubstantiated claims regarding the age of the prehistoric art. Not only that, while one of your sources (British Museum) speculates that the prehistoric art dates back two million years, your other source comes right out and admits the dating is unreliable.

"Dating of Prehistoric Art
A number of highly sophisticated techniques - such as radiometric testing and thermoluminescence - are now available to help establish the date of ancient artifacts from the Paleolithic era and later. However, dating of ancient art is not an exact science, and results are often dependent on tests performed on the 'layer' of earth and debris in which the artifact was lying, or - in the case of rock engraving - an analysis of the content and style of the markings. (Animal drawings using regular side-profiles, for instance, are typically older than those using three-quarter profiles.) For a chronological list of dates and events associated with Stone Age culture, see: Prehistoric Art Timeline."
Prehistoric Art: Origins, Types, Characteristics
Click to expand...

You also claimed humans have only been on this planet 6000 years. So yes, my sources contradicted your claim.

Your posts are a laugh a minute though. Hard to believe you are actually serious :D
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:

Any source can contradict another source. The next step is to prove which source is more credible, and that is what I intend to do.

MY PREMISE: Humans have only existed about 6,000 years based upon secular human writings and Bible chronology.


YOUR CLAIM: Humans have existed more than two million years because one of your sources made the claim that ancient human artifacts have been dated back two million years.


CONCLUSION: If a source makes claims that are not supported by evidence, then the claims are not considered credible and the claims have to be dismissed as fiction.


Your sources presented fiction.
 
Ceist said:
You also claimed humans have only been on this planet 6000 years. So yes, my sources contradicted your claim.

Your posts are a laugh a minute though. Hard to believe you are actually serious :D
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:
Go ahead and laugh if you think if will change the fact that your own source admits it relies on dating methods that "is not an exact science."


One of your two sources said radiometric testing and thermoluminescence are considered "highly sophisticated techniques."

"Dating of Prehistoric Art
A number of highly sophisticated techniques - such as radiometric testing and thermoluminescence - are now available to help establish the date of ancient artifacts from the Paleolithic era and later. However, dating of ancient art is not an exact science, and results are often dependent on tests performed on the 'layer' of earth and debris in which the artifact was lying, or - in the case of rock engraving - an analysis of the content and style of the markings. (Animal drawings using regular side-profiles, for instance, are typically older than those using three-quarter profiles.) For a chronological list of dates and events associated with Stone Age culture, see: Prehistoric Art Timeline."
Prehistoric Art: Origins, Types, Characteristics


Instead of laughing, you should be weeping, because radiometric testing and thermoluminescence have been found to be based entirely upon speculations and assumptions that can never be proven.


But that is another debate topic not part of this thread. I will revisit it when I start another thread where dating methods will come into play.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

What about 20 000 year old cave paintings?
or
20 000 year old human bodies?
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

The Ancient Greeks were able to very accurately calculate the size and shape of the earth.
 
Alter2Ego said:
Go ahead and laugh if you think if will change the fact that your own source admits it relies on dating methods that "is not an exact science."
Click to expand...

What a complete joke.

Not and "exact science"..... so friggin funny.

yeah, okay, so they can't pin-point an exact year some thing was alive, but they sure as hell can get with a hundred or two years. They might be plus-or-minus a small percentage of years, but they're not off by multiple magnitudes.


What I find funny is that you suggest that since something isn't an "exact science" that it's a complete lie, while a book of fairy tales and fables with absolutely know foundation in scientific proof is somehow the historical truth??????????

That's so ironically funny, and even funnier that you don't see that.

More proof that religion is blind, deaf, and dumb.

no_evil.gif
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Logicman said:
And we can post hundreds refuting them.
Click to expand...

Sure, but we can post links that are grounded in scientific facts, while your links are just more religious mumbo-jumbo.

Comes back to the word faith.

Your beliefs require faith because there is no fact.

My facts don't require belief because they are indeed facts.

Religion, god, Jesus, heaven, hell, angels, and devils all REQUIRE faith from a person.

They require faith because there is no facts around them. Simple as that.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:

Any source can contradict another source. The next step is to prove which source is more credible, and that is what I intend to do.

MY PREMISE: Humans have only existed about 6,000 years based upon secular human writings and Bible chronology.


YOUR CLAIM: Humans have existed more than two million years because one of your sources made the claim that ancient human artifacts have been dated back two million years.


CONCLUSION: If a source makes claims that are not supported by evidence, then the claims are not considered credible and the claims have to be dismissed as fiction.


Your sources presented fiction.
Click to expand...

Knock yourself out trying to prove that humans have only been on the planet for 6000 years. Oh wait.... you think you already have. LOL! :D

Seriously, I don't need to present all the overwhelming evidence that prove your claims to be pure fantasy- it's so easily available in the public sphere from educational sources. Take some responsibility for your own education instead of childishly demanding that other people spoon feed you.
 
Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

ludin said:
Historical Proof of the Bible | Jesus in history

The Smithsonian Department of Anthropology is reported to have said this about the Bible (referring to history not spiritual teachings.)

“Much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological work. For the most part, historical events described took place and the peoples cited really existed

There are other major institutions that give high credance to the bible and it's historical accuracy.
The historical accuracy of the bible is not in doubt.
Click to expand...

Do you know what a 'quote mine' is?

"Quote mining is the deceitful tactic of taking quotes out of context in order to make them seemingly agree with the quote miner's viewpoint or to make the comments of an opponent seem more extreme or hold positions they don't in order to make their positions easier to refute or demonize.[1] It's a way of lying."



How about reading the entire letter from the Smithsonian? -Which I doubt you will find in your Apologist websites or books.

http://www.csnradio.com/tema/links/SmithsonianLetter.pdf
 
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Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:
Go ahead and laugh if you think if will change the fact that your own source admits it relies on dating methods that "is not an exact science."


One of your two sources said radiometric testing and thermoluminescence are considered "highly sophisticated techniques."

"Dating of Prehistoric Art
A number of highly sophisticated techniques - such as radiometric testing and thermoluminescence - are now available to help establish the date of ancient artifacts from the Paleolithic era and later. However, dating of ancient art is not an exact science, and results are often dependent on tests performed on the 'layer' of earth and debris in which the artifact was lying, or - in the case of rock engraving - an analysis of the content and style of the markings. (Animal drawings using regular side-profiles, for instance, are typically older than those using three-quarter profiles.) For a chronological list of dates and events associated with Stone Age culture, see: Prehistoric Art Timeline."
Prehistoric Art: Origins, Types, Characteristics


Instead of laughing, you should be weeping, because radiometric testing and thermoluminescence have been found to be based entirely upon speculations and assumptions that can never be proven.


But that is another debate topic not part of this thread. I will revisit it when I start another thread where dating methods will come into play.
Click to expand...

You aren't "debating" anything. You are making unsupported fantasy claims that are completely disproven by overwhelming evidence to the contrary. A 5 year old insisting that Santa really exists could do better.
 
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Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired of God

RogueWarrior said:
What about 20 000 year old cave paintings?
or
20 000 year old human bodies?
Click to expand...

Satan must have planted them to test the faithful? Like he did with fossils?
 
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Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- CEIST:
Go ahead and laugh if you think if will change the fact that your own source admits it relies on dating methods that "is not an exact science."


One of your two sources said radiometric testing and thermoluminescence are considered "highly sophisticated techniques."

"Dating of Prehistoric Art
A number of highly sophisticated techniques - such as radiometric testing and thermoluminescence - are now available to help establish the date of ancient artifacts from the Paleolithic era and later. However, dating of ancient art is not an exact science, and results are often dependent on tests performed on the 'layer' of earth and debris in which the artifact was lying, or - in the case of rock engraving - an analysis of the content and style of the markings. (Animal drawings using regular side-profiles, for instance, are typically older than those using three-quarter profiles.) For a chronological list of dates and events associated with Stone Age culture, see: Prehistoric Art Timeline."
Prehistoric Art: Origins, Types, Characteristics


Instead of laughing, you should be weeping, because radiometric testing and thermoluminescence have been found to be based entirely upon speculations and assumptions that can never be proven.


But that is another debate topic not part of this thread. I will revisit it when I start another thread where dating methods will come into play.
Click to expand...

RogueWarrior-to-Alter2Ego

Before you come back, and waste our time with babblical nonsense, I strongly suggest you go here (INDEX TO CREATIONIST CLAIMS) to see if you have anything new to add to the creationist argument. For I can speculate to a high degree of confidence that anything you currently think is a slam dunk for creationism, HAS BEEN rebutted or disproven.
 
RogueWarrior said:
RogueWarrior-to-Alter2Ego

Before you come back, and waste our time with babblical nonsense, I strongly suggest you go here (INDEX TO CREATIONIST CLAIMS) to see if you have anything new to add to the creationist argument. For I can speculate to a high degree of confidence that anything you currently think is a slam dunk for creationism, HAS BEEN rebutted or disproven.
Click to expand...
Wow. You're big! :D
 
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