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Nobody is perfect???

Paleocon said:
This rests on the false notion that morality is subjective, rather it is objective. If you disagree with this, then tell me, was the Holocaust wrong?

A moral dilemma exists in the mind of the moral agent (person). It is not a contradiction of morality itself, but only of a moral agent's subjective reasoning regarding morality. Thus it is that one moral agent may find something to be a dilemma, while another may not.
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I guess I need to create a new thread on this same topic. My concern was when operating in a professional capacity. 25 x 25 is always 625. These types of things are subjective and never change. Is it healthy, realistic, proper, wise or appropriate to expect perfection of oneself or to expect perfection of co-workers or employees in the work place?

Of course this wouldn't apply to all types of work but data-entry, accounting, cashier, bank teller and things like that can be perfected. Or can they?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
I guess I need to create a new thread on this same topic. My concern was when operating in a professional capacity. 25 x 25 is always 625. These types of things are subjective and never change. Is it healthy, realistic, proper, wise or appropriate to expect perfection of oneself or to expect perfection of co-workers or employees in the work place?

Of course this wouldn't apply to all types of work but data-entry, accounting, cashier, bank teller and things like that can be perfected. Or can they?
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I would say that no human act in our fallen world can be perfect*. This is because in classical philosophy, every human act contains both good and evil (while these terms are most often used to refer to morality, the word "good" can refer to material or intellectual goods as well, and evil simply designates any potential good which is not actualized). Thus for any human act, while it can be the best or worse reasonably possible act, there will always be something which at least theoretically could have been done better or worse. For instance even if all of the math in an accounting job is done correctly, it still could have been done faster. Thus because fallen man lacks amongst other things the power of instantaneous intellection, no act can be perfect.

*Obviously certain things can be objectively perfect, for instance 4 is objectively the perfect answer to the question "what is 2 + 2", but no real act ever occurs without a subject (the person performing the act), and therefore something about the act could have been done better.
 
Paleocon said:
I would say that no human act in our fallen world can be perfect*. This is because in classical philosophy, every human act contains both good and evil (while these terms are most often used to refer to morality, the word "good" can refer to material or intellectual goods as well, and evil simply designates any potential good which is not actualized). Thus for any human act, while it can be the best or worse reasonably possible act, there will always be something which at least theoretically could have been done better or worse. For instance even if all of the math in an accounting job is done correctly, it still could have been done faster. Thus because fallen man lacks amongst other things the power of instantaneous intellection, no act can be perfect.

*Obviously certain things can be objectively perfect, for instance 4 is objectively the perfect answer to the question "what is 2 + 2", but no real act ever occurs without a subject (the person performing the act), and therefore something about the act could have been done better.
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Are the purist demands of my employer and past employers a figment of my imagination? I haven't experienced this at every place that I worked. It is only my current part-time job and one other job that I had in the past.

Is the formal reprimand with a straight face some sort of management technique that isn't used by all companies? It is very uncomfortable to feel like you are destined to be a disappointment. Are they just pretending that you are destined to be a disappointment for some kind of strategic agenda? Surely somebody knows what I am referring to.

Here is an example: The boss looks you straight in the eye with a complete straight face, "48 times 32 is 1,536. On that last report you entered 1,530. That caused all of the other reports to be wrong. We have to make sure these documents are done correctly. If they aren't done right it will cause x, y or z. Just remember in the future that 48 times 32 is always 1,536. 48 times 32 is never 1,530 like you entered on that last report on Thursday. Are we clear?"

Is anybody familiar with this type of communication?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
The spankee is purposely behaving imperfectly. You could argue that the spankee is perfect yet choosing to be imperfect thus is not lacking morally. I would argue that the spankee is imperfect based upon his/her ability to be influenced with pleasure to stray from that which is correct. The perfection would lay in abstaining from the imperfect action even if that requires loosing out on a pleasureable reward. His imperfection is his/her misdeed but more importantly his/her weakness to be improperly influenced via rewards and punishment is the sole source of the imperfection.

Would you disagree?
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then there are variables within perfection. perhaps the imperfect performance is a strength not a weakness.perfection then must change accoding to the situation. suppose an accountant is installed in a business for the purpose of destroying that bus. the accountant acts imperfectly for a perfectly planned outcome.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Doesn't your adopted philosophies bleed over into other areas of your life? Could adopting an inability to exhibit a perfect morality bleed over into your professional life?

If I had a real lax moral standard that only included the principles of never killing anybody and never raping anybody then I would be perfect by those standards. Why not add a third one once you managed to exhibit perfection on those two friends? Why not a fourth, fifth and sixth tenant to your code of ethics?

It seems to me that perfection is obtainable but I hear that suicide is prevalent amongst Mormons, Japanese or other cultures that demand perfection/excellence. That is the downside of believing in perfection. Isn't there also an upside to believing that you can obtain perfection?

Is there an upside to believing that "Nobody is perfect"? Is there a downside to believing that "Nobody is perfect"?
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You know what? Under an extraordinary amount of stress -- the kind that makes stuff like eating and sleeping kind of a task -- I have missed letters in my own name. Granted I have a long name, but still -- it's my name. I've also given the wrong address, the wrong number, and even sounded mildly intoxicated while speaking, even though I was dead sober. A sufficient amount of strain has a serious impact on your brain. Hell, under enough strain, it can kill you.

Nope, nobody is perfect. Not even with the mundane things.

I think whether one uses "Nobody is perfect" as an excuse to get away with things is dependent on the person. I certainly don't. For me, "Nobody is perfect" is actually something that sort of saves me from picking myself to pieces and allows me to instead focus on doing it right next time. I'm not easy on myself when it comes to ethics, and I shouldn't be; I know through experience I am capable of living them even under very trying circumstances. There's no excuse for not doing that as much as humanly possible.

But I'm just not going to be perfect all the time. And in some scenarios, even the most I am capable of at a given moment isn't quite as much as what I wish I was capable of. Sometimes other factors simply take some of it out of my hands, and I can't do everything I think should ideally be done. Sometimes something is just a bit outside the league of my experience or threshold, and first times are never perfect. At some point, I just have to accept that I know I did the absolute best that I could at the time.

If I let myself, I'd ride my own ass about that stuff for ages. But why would I? What good does that do me towards being ready for whatever comes next? And what was I supposed to do other than the best I could with the information and skills that I had?

And yes, there are other people who just use it to get away with anything. They repeat the same bad or hypocritical actions over and over and use their humanity as a reason not to change. But that's not inherent to the concept, just like being a criminal is not inherent to owning a gun. The ability to accept yourself can be used as a way to make yourself better, or a way to excuse being a crap person. It's a tool, and it depends who's wielding it.

For "Nobody is perfect" to be implemented correctly, one also has to be instilled with the belief that improvement is always possible, and that improving makes the world a better place. They have to be instilled with the belief that it's ok to be happy with yourself with doing the best you can, but that isn't necessarily synonymous with the best you could possibly do under different circumstances or with more experience.

It's another one of those things that sort of defies the simplicity of the hero/villain narrative I think it common in our culture. We tend to look at others that way too, but the reality is that sometimes there are bad situations where no one is evil. They just are what they are. Perhaps they're even deserving of some amount of empathy. But you have to calm down enough to see that.

Very few of us are heroes or villains either. As far as your average person goes, the best of us are doing the best we can and the worst of us aren't doing much of anything. We both use "Nobody is perfect" to justify either one of those things, but how it turns out is dependent upon not the concept itself, but rather whether we think that releases us from trying.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
You know what? Under an extraordinary amount of stress -- the kind that makes stuff like eating and sleeping kind of a task -- I have missed letters in my own name. Granted I have a long name, but still -- it's my name. I've also given the wrong address, the wrong number, and even sounded mildly intoxicated while speaking, even though I was dead sober. A sufficient amount of strain has a serious impact on your brain. Hell, under enough strain, it can kill you.

Nope, nobody is perfect. Not even with the mundane things.

I think whether one uses "Nobody is perfect" as an excuse to get away with things is dependent on the person. I certainly don't. For me, "Nobody is perfect" is actually something that sort of saves me from picking myself to pieces and allows me to instead focus on doing it right next time. I'm not easy on myself when it comes to ethics, and I shouldn't be; I know through experience I am capable of living them even under very trying circumstances. There's no excuse for not doing that as much as humanly possible.

But I'm just not going to be perfect all the time. And in some scenarios, even the most I am capable of at a given moment isn't quite as much as what I wish I was capable of. Sometimes other factors simply take some of it out of my hands, and I can't do everything I think should ideally be done. Sometimes something is just a bit outside the league of my experience or threshold, and first times are never perfect. At some point, I just have to accept that I know I did the absolute best that I could at the time.

If I let myself, I'd ride my own ass about that stuff for ages. But why would I? What good does that do me towards being ready for whatever comes next? And what was I supposed to do other than the best I could with the information and skills that I had?

And yes, there are other people who just use it to get away with anything. They repeat the same bad or hypocritical actions over and over and use their humanity as a reason not to change. But that's not inherent to the concept, just like being a criminal is not inherent to owning a gun. The ability to accept yourself can be used as a way to make yourself better, or a way to excuse being a crap person. It's a tool, and it depends who's wielding it.

For "Nobody is perfect" to be implemented correctly, one also has to be instilled with the belief that improvement is always possible, and that improving makes the world a better place. They have to be instilled with the belief that it's ok to be happy with yourself with doing the best you can, but that isn't necessarily synonymous with the best you could possibly do under different circumstances or with more experience.

It's another one of those things that sort of defies the simplicity of the hero/villain narrative I think it common in our culture. We tend to look at others that way too, but the reality is that sometimes there are bad situations where no one is evil. They just are what they are. Perhaps they're even deserving of some amount of empathy. But you have to calm down enough to see that.

Very few of us are heroes or villains either. As far as your average person goes, the best of us are doing the best we can and the worst of us aren't doing much of anything. We both use "Nobody is perfect" to justify either one of those things, but how it turns out is dependent upon not the concept itself, but rather whether we think that releases us from trying.
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That is a very good response. It looks like you understand what I was trying to say. Thanks for the comments. You gave me lots to think about.
 
Show me perfect in the form of a person...............other than myself.
 
rhinefire said:
If it was nothing as you say explain why you responded to nothing?
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It was a polished nothing. I thought it was important to point out the deception of your non-comment disguised as ancient wisdom.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Nobody is perfect. You have probably heard this statement a lot. This is probably true but is it a beneficial thing to believe?

I learned to spell my name when I was a kid. I bet if I was asked to spell it 1,000 times that I could spell it perfectly every time. This makes me perfect.

As a child I learned mulitiplication tables. I bet if I was asked to multiple 3x8 1,000 times that I could come up with the correct answer every time. This makes me perfect.

My question is this: Can this level of perfection be applied to more complex tasks if a level of mastery is acheived? Can an accountant file 1,000 tax returns accurately every single time? Can a secretary file all 1,000 documents into the correct file every single time? Can a mail man deliver every letter exactly where it is supposed to go without error every single day?

Is it a worthwhile endeavor to even try? Is it emotional harmful to attempt to acheive perfection in a work situation? Is it economically lazy to give up on the possibility of doing your job 100% perfect? Is it detrimental to productivity to try to be perfect because perfection requires a minimum amount of output. If nothing is done, no mistakes are made.

If we can be perfect with simple task, why can't we be perfect with more complex tasks? Doesn't anybody understand where I am going with this thought?

Is this even a philosophy discussion?
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No. This is you trying to combat a severe inferiority complex.
 
Rainman05 said:
No. This is you trying to combat a severe inferiority complex.
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That's a fair assessment of the situation. How did you come to that conclusion? Was it based on what I said in this post alone? Surely you intend to offer more insight into this line of thinking. Am I right?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
That's a fair assessment of the situation. How did you come to that conclusion? Was it based on what I said in this post alone?
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Pretty much. This is the only interraction we shared on this forum as much as I can tell.

You claimed that to be perfect was to be able to spell your name and make multiplications perfectly.
I don't know if you dump the bar low for what "perfect" is or if you just don't care about the differences between doing an action perfectly and being perfect.

People can do a series of complex actions perfectly every time. But that is what makes you the perfect man for THAT job, not the perfect man.
 
Rainman05 said:
Pretty much. This is the only interraction we shared on this forum as much as I can tell.

You claimed that to be perfect was to be able to spell your name and make multiplications perfectly.
I don't know if you dump the bar low for what "perfect" is or if you just don't care about the differences between doing an action perfectly and being perfect.

People can do a series of complex actions perfectly every time. But that is what makes you the perfect man for THAT job, not the perfect man.
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A lot of people are confused in this thread. I am not referring to ethics at all. I was just wondering if it was unrealistic to expect to master a task. If so, is it lazy to assume that you will never master any task?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
A lot of people are confused in this thread. I am not referring to ethics at all.
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Neither am I.
What did I just say?
People can do a series of complex actions perfectly every time. But that is what makes you the perfect man for THAT job, not the perfect man.
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You can be perfect at doing multiplications but suck horribly at doing differential integral calculations. that makes you the perfect guy for the job of doing multiplications but the worst candidate for differential integral calculations.

If being able to do one thing "perfectly" or some things "perfectly" is what you consider to be the threshhold for being considered "perfect", then consider yourself perfect. And don't stop there. Put breathing. Can you breathe perfectly? You're perfect. can you drink water perfectly? You're perfect. Lower the bar as much as you want to the simplest of actions and if you can do those ,you're perfect.

You're perfect just the way you are, one in 7 bil.
 
Rainman05 said:
Neither am I.
What did I just say?


You can be perfect at doing multiplications but suck horribly at doing differential integral calculations. that makes you the perfect guy for the job of doing multiplications but the worst candidate for differential integral calculations.

If being able to do one thing "perfectly" or some things "perfectly" is what you consider to be the threshhold for being considered "perfect", then consider yourself perfect. And don't stop there. Put breathing. Can you breathe perfectly? You're perfect. can you drink water perfectly? You're perfect. Lower the bar as much as you want to the simplest of actions and if you can do those ,you're perfect.

You're perfect just the way you are, one in 7 bil.
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Can you give more insight on what an inferiority complex might look like in it's worse form, the most common form and a very mild form?

Can you tell me what damage comes from having an inferiority complex? Can you tell me what benefits are derived from have an inferiority complex?

I am not one of those people that says, "I don't care what anybody else thinks about me." I do care what others think about me. Sometimes people communicate in ways that are intended to be 100% neutral and casual but I tend interpret it as being critical. Is this one of the symptoms of an inferiority complex?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Will you give more insight on what an inferiority complex might look like in it's worse form, the most common form and a very mild form?
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No.
Will you tell me what damage comes from having an inferiority complex? Will you tell me what benefits are derived from have an inferiority complex?
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No.
I am not one of those people that says, "I don't care what anybody else thinks about me." I do care what others think about me. Sometimes people communicate in ways that are intended to be 100% neutral and casual but I tend interpret it as being critical. Is this one of the symptoms of an inferiority complex?
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No.

I'm not being critical of you in any way shape or form. I'm just countering your arguments and your opinion on what the threshold for one being considered "perfect" is. I gave you my 2c, perfect for the job versus being perfect all round. Being perfect to do a job doesn't make you perfect. If you feel it does, carry on. I'm not going to engage in a topic about your person because I don't know you.
 
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