Noahs Ark.[W:109, W:140]

Anyway, were all animals in the ark, young or fully grown?

Surely we cannot compare the numbers of animals today to the numbers in those days. Just cats as an example: long-haired, short-haired, tabby, Siamese etc.., Animals have diversified in the 4500 years or so since the flood.


Woodmorappe in his book ‘Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study’ (available on Amazon) calculated that the number of animals would have been less than 16,000, assuming that a biblical kind is roughly equivalent to the group of animals we call a genus today. However, if the biblical kind is equivalent to the family grouping, then there would have only been 2,000 animals. Probably it was somewhere in between.

The animals would have been easily housed in small enclosures because most animals are small, typically the size of a rabbit. Even large animals were once small, so Noah could have taken maturing animals on board, much smaller than when they are fully grown.

And the size of the Ark? It was huge. It had a capacity of over 500 railroad cattle cars, enough to carry more than 120,000 sheep. So there was plenty of room on the Ark for the animals, for their food and water, and for Noah and his family.


http://biblicalgeology.net/Answer/How-did-Noah-fit-all-the-animals-on-the-Ark.html

I love these threads because the comedy is stellar.

1. The movie in not Biblically accurate and was never intended to be, it is one man's vision of turning the story into a blockbuster. It has been influenced by Jewish commentary (BTW Noah's ark is a Jewish not a Christian story) called Midrash but the director really added his own twists.

2. Trying to discredit religion in general by saying the Bible is not feasible and making an argument for it is like trying to discredit the founding of this country because the George Washington cherry tree story is made up. The Bible is poetry not prose and in the case of Noah's ark the use of that as a way to teach lessons has been known for as long as there have been people talking about it.

3. Bible literalists who try to find arguments to make the story feasible are just as silly. In fact, there are two complete and distinct stories of the flood that are interwoven in the Torah. 2 of each animal or 7 of clean and two of unclean? Look, read it in context, you will find that it clearly is the cobbling together of ancient mythology and giving it a new twist for the monothestic group. That is true of the story that comes right after Noah too, the Tower of Babel.

It is a movie, based on a story that is well-known and it will be fun. Many people will shake their heads coming out of the movie and many more will complain that it isn't Biblical enough and even more will simply have fun with a great story of good versus evil and triumph of faith in God over selfishness. Then in two weeks get all excited over the next superhero movie.

joko104 said:

So the purpose of this thread is to ridicule Christians, Muslims and Jews and other religions too? There are over 300 cultures that claim their ancestors were 8 people that survived a global flood.

Click to expand...

Uh....NO.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that the Noah's Ark story is not possible as described, and thus not to be taken as literal. It is however, interesting to note that some Christians feel slighted and attacked every time someone tries to use logical thought when discussing the book they use in worship.

The "Christian Persecution Complex" you weep about is your own imagined self pity being displayed.

So....basically Noah built THIS:




Out of wood?

tosca1 said:

Surely we cannot compare the numbers of animals today to the numbers in those days. Just cats as an example: long-haired, short-haired, tabby, Siamese etc.., Animals have diversified in the 4500 years or so since the flood.

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Is the Earth less than ten thousand years old?

Manc Skipper said:

If s/he's supernatural, then s/he has no point of contact with the natural.

Click to expand...

Who says this?

Wiseone said:

Except its not a literal story, there's no evidence or reason to suggest that it ever happened and it would be impossible for it to occur as described in the Bible.

Click to expand...

You cannot prove that it didn't happen either.

tosca1 said:

Anyway, were all animals in the ark, young or fully grown?

Surely we cannot compare the numbers of animals today to the numbers in those days. Just cats as an example: long-haired, short-haired, tabby, Siamese etc.., Animals have diversified in the 4500 years or so since the flood.


Woodmorappe in his book ‘Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study’ (available on Amazon) calculated that the number of animals would have been less than 16,000, assuming that a biblical kind is roughly equivalent to the group of animals we call a genus today. However, if the biblical kind is equivalent to the family grouping, then there would have only been 2,000 animals. Probably it was somewhere in between.

The animals would have been easily housed in small enclosures because most animals are small, typically the size of a rabbit. Even large animals were once small, so Noah could have taken maturing animals on board, much smaller than when they are fully grown.

And the size of the Ark? It was huge. It had a capacity of over 500 railroad cattle cars, enough to carry more than 120,000 sheep. So there was plenty of room on the Ark for the animals, for their food and water, and for Noah and his family.


http://biblicalgeology.net/Answer/How-did-Noah-fit-all-the-animals-on-the-Ark.html

Click to expand...

You do know that brings up a problem of "hyper evolution" right? In order to come up with the number of species we see today in that time frame mutation rates would have to be many orders of magnitude greater than what we know them to be.

nota bene said:

You cannot prove that it didn't happen either.

Click to expand...

In order for it to have happened as a literal story, fundamentalists have to accept one of the following:

a) The 8.7 million species we know exist today were all piled onto a ship built by a people with no ship building tradition.

or

b) Tosca's answer. This answer says that the Earth is less than ten thousand years old and that evolution is false.

I can prove to you that both these options are false.

Mornin'......Here is what they made the Ark look like for the movie.....also this is one of the Shortest if not thee shortest story in the Bible. As not much is really known. Other than whats already out there.

So we do know the dimensions of the Ark. Also consider.....there was no rudder, no sails. If we go by what is questionably known. We do know the Length of a Cubit. We also know the dimensions of the Alleged Arc. Which really was nothing more than a Box. That would be floating around in the flood.

According to the dimensions it would only have been taller than a 3story apt building today.




Plot Summary:
"Noah" is a close adaptation of the Biblical story of Noah's Ark. In a world ravaged by human sin, Noah is given a divine mission: to build an Ark to save creation from the coming flood.....snip~

marduc said:

You do know that brings up a problem of "hyper evolution" right? In order to come up with the number of species we see today in that time frame mutation rates would have to be many orders of magnitude greater than what we know them to be.

Click to expand...

It's impossible. Such theories run contrary to our understanding of animal diversification and evolutionary processes.

nota bene said:

You cannot prove that it didn't happen either.

Click to expand...

Yes, we can.

The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark | NCSE



Global flood - RationalWiki


"The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 nights.[2][3] Rain appears when the atmosphere can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. Normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.[4] The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day - about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide[5] - would have rendered the air unbreathable.

Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today. Barring the goddidit escape hatch (a tried and tested fallback for creationists everywhere), this is impossible."

Here is an article by Live Science on this. It also bring up the point about animals from other continents.



The Ark: Could Noah's Tale Be True?


Henry Morris, author of "The Biblical Basis for Modern Science" (Baker House, 1984), a creationist text, states that "The ark was to be essentially a huge box designed essentially for stability in the waters of the Flood rather than for movement through the waters. ... The ark was taller than a normal three-story building and about one and a half times as long as a football field. The total volumetric capacity was equal to 1,396,000 cubic feet [39,500 cubic meters] ... equivalent to 522 standard railroad stock cars, far more than enough space to carry two of every known kind of animal, living or extinct."

The flaws in Morris's calculations become evident when you consider that, according to many creationists, Noah's Ark included hundreds of dinosaurs. That would mean, for example, the brachiosaurus (two of them, of course), each of which weighed about 50 tons and reached 85 feet (26 meters) long. Even if two representatives all of Earth's animals could somehow fit on the ark, enough space would be needed for drinking water and food for an entire year.

Furthermore, contrary to many depictions of the ark, God actually asked Noah to collect not one but seven pairs of "clean" animals and one pair of "unclean" animals (Genesis 7:2-3) — resulting, in some cases, in fourteen of many animals. There simply would not be nearly enough space for all of them.

A closer look

Another problem with the Ark story arises because there is no evidence for a global flood. Creation stories from many different religions and cultures include flood stories, and Feder notes that if a worldwide flood had occurred, "The archaeological record of 5,000 years ago would be replete with Pompeii-style ruins — the remains of thousands of towns, villages and cities, all wiped out by flood waters, simultaneously. ... It would appear that the near annihilation of the human race, if it happened, left no imprint on the archaeological record anywhere.".....snip~

The Ark: Could Noah's Tale Be True? | LiveScience

MMC said:

Mornin'......Here is what they made the Ark look like for the movie.....also this is one of the Shortest if not thee shortest story in the Bible. As not much is really known. Other than whats already out there.

So we do know the dimensions of the Ark. Also consider.....there was no rudder, no sails. If we go by what is questionably known. We do know the Length of a Cubit. We also know the dimensions of the Alleged Arc. Which really was nothing more than a Box. That would be floating around in the flood.

According to the dimensions it would only have been taller than a 3story apt building today.




Plot Summary:
"Noah" is a close adaptation of the Biblical story of Noah's Ark. In a world ravaged by human sin, Noah is given a divine mission: to build an Ark to save creation from the coming flood.....snip~

Click to expand...

MMC, care to join me in building an ark? Sure beats having a sailboat that needs to get into port from time to time to stock up on food and water! We could ask all our friends from DP if they'd like to get away from things for an extended period of time! We need to talk with SMW and Vesper and the other bartenders about a shipboard bar...wouldn't want to go otherwise... :mrgreen:

Good morning, MMC. :2wave:

Konig said:

Is the Earth less than ten thousand years old?

Click to expand...

We're not discussing about the age of the earth, nor are we discussing if The Flood indeed happened in the literal sense as described in the Bible.

We're discussing the possibility of Noah's Ark - referred to in the OP.

marduc said:

You do know that brings up a problem of "hyper evolution" right? In order to come up with the number of species we see today in that time frame mutation rates would have to be many orders of magnitude greater than what we know them to be.

Click to expand...

Well, the Bible does support micro-evolution. Evolution within species. So, I don't see any problem.

tosca1 said:

Well, the Bible does support micro-evolution. Evolution within species.

Click to expand...

And genetics shows that your suggested "hyper evolution" is an impossibility.

polgara said:

MMC, care to join me in building an ark? Sure beats having a sailboat that needs to get into port from time to time to stock up on food and water! We could ask all our friends from DP if they'd like to get away from things for an extended period of time! We need to talk with SMW and Vesper and the other bartenders about a shipboard bar...wouldn't want to go otherwise... :mrgreen:

Good morning, MMC. :2wave:

Click to expand...

The DP Ark :lamo .....Remember Glum from Gulliver's Travels, Were Doomed! :2razz:

nota bene said:

You cannot prove that it didn't happen either.

Click to expand...

And you can't prove a magical unicorn named Aurbias didn't cause the flood. See what I did there? You can't just throw out a bull**** statement and demand people prove it false as if its default state is truth, no things must be proven true.

There's no ****ing evidence of a flood by the way and if that ain't proof enough than nothing will be.

This is another take on the matter.

Wiseone said:

And you can't prove a magical unicorn named Aurbias didn't cause the flood. See what I did there? You can't just throw out a bull**** statement and demand people prove it false as if its default state is truth, no things must be proven true.

There's no ****ing evidence of a flood by the way and if that ain't proof enough than nothing will be.

Click to expand...

National Geographic: Noah’s Flood/Black Sea Expedition

tecoyah said:

Uh....NO.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that the Noah's Ark story is not possible as described, and thus not to be taken as literal. It is however, interesting to note that some Christians feel slighted and attacked every time someone tries to use logical thought when discussing the book they use in worship. The "Christian Persecution Complex" you weep about is your own imagined self pity being displayed.

Click to expand...

What I was actually asking is whether the purpose of your starting this thread is to prove to yourself and everyone that you are a superior status member of the forum in relation to:

"This forum is dedicated and limited to discussions of religion, faith, and spirituality. Threads/posts critical of religion and spiritual aspects are not allowed here and will result in a B/F/T Infraction + Thread Ban."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/105486-religious-discussions-forum.html

1. You started a thread on the Religion board with absurdly exaggerated numbers declaring it proves the Bible false.

2. Although the Biblical flood is from Judaism and is a belief shared by Muslims, you just singled out Christians for believing in the "myth" of the Bible you claim you are proving is false.

3. You then go on to assume I am a Christian and assuming I believe the Biblical story of the flood - which I never posted - for the purpose of making a personal attack against me and against Christians for a "Christian Persecution Complex" and "self pity."

Since this thread you started is the anti-Christianity and ridicule Christians topic for them believing the Bible is true, why not just proceed to post all the other reasons you claim the Bible is false and all your personal insults and condemnations of Christians?

tecoyah said:

So....basically Noah built THIS:

View attachment 67164090
View attachment 67164091

Out of wood?

Click to expand...

It would appear to make your attacks against the Bible and Christians (since YOU decided to single out Christians only) you continue to post grotesque exaggerations starting with your first message and now this on. Genesis describes the ark as being 450 long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet tall. For which you post structures all over 1000 feet tall.

What is not believable is your messages or the integrity of your messages for radical false comparisons and numbers. If it wasn't from the very start, this is a thread you started is your personal desire to bash Jews, Muslims and Christians for believing in the Bible's story of Genesis.

The ship picture you posted has nearly 1000% percent the volume of the ark as described in the Bible. Large ships were made of wood and a barge is far easier to build than a sailing ship.

joko104 said:

....snip.....What I was actually asking is whether the purpose of your starting this thread is to prove to yourself and everyone that you are a superior status member of the forum in relation to:

Click to expand...

If that were the case...why post this in the first place:

Originally Posted by joko104 View Post

So the purpose of this thread is to ridicule Christians, Muslims and Jews and other religions too? There are over 300 cultures that claim their ancestors were 8 people that survived a global flood.

Seriously...just admit I am right so we can move on.

humbolt said:

National Geographic: Noah’s Flood/Black Sea Expedition

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A bunch of old stories doesn't make something true, have you ever heard of fiction?