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Where Does Free Will End...or, is that Begin?

calamity

calamity

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Back to the age old question--is there free will? Is what we do done willfully, each action carried through with intent and forethought, or are we simply reacting to a myriad of stimuli, most of which we are unaware even exist?

Here's an in-depth article exploring the matter.

Hundreds of studies now show that factors we’re unaware of influence how we think and act. College students who fill out a questionnaire about their political opinions when standing next to a dispenser of hand sanitizer become, at least for a moment, more politically conservative than those standing next to an empty wall. Shoppers walking past a bakery are more likely than other shoppers to make change for a stranger. Subjects favor job applicants whose résumés are presented to them on heavy clipboards. Supposedly egalitarian white people who are under time pressure are more likely to misidentify a tool as a gun after being shown a photo of a black male face.

...Nobody can deny that we are sometimes biochemical puppets. In 2000, an otherwise normal Virginia man started to collect child pornography and make sexual advances toward his prepubescent stepdaughter. He was sentenced to spend time in a rehabilitation center, only to be expelled for making lewd advances toward staff members and patients. The next step was prison, but the night before he was to be incarcerated, severe headaches sent him to the hospital, where doctors discovered a large tumor on his brain. After they removed it, his sexual obsessions disappeared. Months later, his interest in child pornography returned, and a scan showed that the tumor had come back. Once again it was removed, and once again his obsessions disappeared.

It might be possible that we are physical beings who can use reason and make choices. But haven’t the psychologists shown us that this is wrong, that reason is an illusion? The sorts of findings I began this article with—about the surprising relationship between bakery smells and altruism, or between the weight of a résumé and how a job candidate is judged—are often taken to show that our everyday thoughts and actions are not subject to conscious control.

This body of research has generated a lot of controversy, and for good reason...

The War on Reason - Paul Bloom - The Atlantic
Click to expand...
 
I don't believe there IS a point where it begins or ends. There are certain choices that we make which are strictly free will. Others are influenced by environment, neurochemicals, and other factors. There is not a point in time at which one can say, I have free will, or I don't have free will.
 
I don't think free will can exists in a deterministic universe. There seem to be physical rules that apply to literally everything, including all the chemical and electrical processes in our brains - we don't understand half of them but know enough see the patterns. Every single aspect of the universe could, theoretically, be accurately predicted (though it's obviously impossible to hold the necessary data within the universe - the ultimate observation changing the observed).

The very real perception of free will exists because of our ignorance, individually and as a species, of the vast majority of those factors. I feel as if I have complete control over the words I'm typing here, expressing my deep-held opinions in the manner in which I choose to do so but in reality, every single thing that has impacted my life and everything before that leading up to it has inevitably and irrevocably led up to this very word: Bananas!

I bet nobody saw that coming. :D
 
lizzie said:
I don't believe there IS a point where it begins or ends. There are certain choices that we make which are strictly free will. Others are influenced by environment, neurochemicals, and other factors. There is not a point in time at which one can say, I have free will, or I don't have free will.
Click to expand...
The guy with the brain tumor clearly did not have free will. No?
 
HonestJoe said:
I don't think free will can exists in a deterministic universe. There seem to be physical rules that apply to literally everything, including all the chemical and electrical processes in our brains - we don't understand half of them but know enough see the patterns. Every single aspect of the universe could, theoretically, be accurately predicted (though it's obviously impossible to hold the necessary data within the universe - the ultimate observation changing the observed).

The very real perception of free will exists because of our ignorance, individually and as a species, of the vast majority of those factors. I feel as if I have complete control over the words I'm typing here, expressing my deep-held opinions in the manner in which I choose to do so but in reality, every single thing that has impacted my life and everything before that leading up to it has inevitably and irrevocably led up to this very word: Bananas!

I bet nobody saw that coming. :D
Click to expand...
I thought you were going to say Cheetah.
 
calamity said:
The guy with the brain tumor clearly did not have free will. No?
Click to expand...

I don't know. I wasn't in his brain at the time. If a case could be made that all pedophiles have brain tumors, thus have no free will, then maybe the point you are trying to make would be more legitimate.
 
lizzie said:
I don't know. I wasn't in his brain at the time. If a case could be made that all pedophiles have brain tumors, thus have no free will, then maybe the point you are trying to make would be more legitimate.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to excuse all pedophiles. I'm only saying this particular person with a brain tumor had no free will.
 
calamity said:
Back to the age old question--is there free will? Is what we do done willfully, each action carried through with intent and forethought, or are we simply reacting to a myriad of stimuli, most of which we are unaware even exist?

Here's an in-depth article exploring the matter.
Click to expand...

The problem I see is that there doesn't really appear to be a theoretical possibility of the existence of free will, if physics is truly causal. Some people point to some quantum effect that might be able to allow for some sort of free will, but the argument doesn't really convince me very much.
 
joG said:
The problem I see is that there doesn't really appear to be a theoretical possibility of the existence of free will, if physics is truly causal. Some people point to some quantum effect that might be able to allow for some sort of free will, but the argument doesn't really convince me very much.
Click to expand...
I agree. It could very well be that the chemicals running through our bodies and the electrical pulses in our head dictate our behavior, even if we do think we are in control of our actions. For instance, impulse control. Do we really understand why some people can resist temptation while others grab for the cookie as soon as they see it?
 
calamity said:
I agree. It could very well be that the chemicals running through our bodies and the electrical pulses in our head dictate our behavior, even if we do think we are in control of our actions. For instance, impulse control. Do we really understand why some people can resist temptation while others grab for the cookie as soon as they see it?
Click to expand...

Only problem there is that if we don't punish the grab, the cookies will be gone before you can say Jack Robinson.
 
In humor, I tend to claim that life is pre-arranged. However, this is unrealistic. To think of even a deity that would micro-orchestrate every event of every individual does not seem to have purpose and therefore has no plausibility. And certainly without a deity, it is all random.

At least I certainly hope so, and that this post was NOT installed 70 years ago, waiting to be used now.
 
Your free will ends exactly where your mind/consciousness ends. Fair enough?
 
joG said:
Only problem there is that if we don't punish the grab, the cookies will be gone before you can say Jack Robinson.
Click to expand...

Yes. This is why we imprison and execute people who cross certain lines, even when it's obvious that they are clearly "sick".
 
calamity said:
Yes. This is why we imprison and execute people who cross certain lines, even when it's obvious that they are clearly "sick".
Click to expand...

So it goes.
 
lizzie said:
I don't believe there IS a point where it begins or ends. There are certain choices that we make which are strictly free will. Others are influenced by environment, neurochemicals, and other factors. There is not a point in time at which one can say, I have free will, or I don't have free will.
Click to expand...

until we understand the physical nature of the quantum universe this question will never be answered. What I do know is that there are infinite ways in which quantum particles interact and also how they behave. We have identified most of them (As far as we know) but even though we've identified them, how they manifest into complex molecules under certain conditions, and how often, is nowhere near understood. For there to be free will I think it is reasonable to extrapolate that we humans as complex beings are able to manipulate this process, a process that would otherwise be determined by the conditions in which the interactions would normally take place. In this frame of mind, I tend to lean toward free will being a real thing, not just a perception.


Tim-
 
I always feel like this question carries the implication that somehow if we were to discover that we don't have free will it would diminish our value or the meaning of our lives. I think we are initially directed by some base impulses. Flee, food etc., but their is so much choice piled on top of that. I guess I think that's enough free will to avoid that loss of my own relevancy.
 
calamity said:
Back to the age old question--is there free will? Is what we do done willfully, each action carried through with intent and forethought, or are we simply reacting to a myriad of stimuli, most of which we are unaware even exist?

Here's an in-depth article exploring the matter.
Click to expand...

If we believe that god(s) exist then questioning how the universe came to be is pointless. The same goes for freewill, its a pointless question based on pointless beliefs.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
If we believe that god(s) exist then questioning how the universe came to be is pointless. The same goes for freewill, its a pointless question based on pointless beliefs.
Click to expand...
Taking God out of the equation, the question remains. Are we really in control of our actions? In theory we are really just slaves of our chemicals and various electrical pulses. Control of our impulses may not be under our control, especially if someone's frontal lobes are damaged.
 
calamity said:
Back to the age old question--is there free will? Is what we do done willfully, each action carried through with intent and forethought, or are we simply reacting to a myriad of stimuli, most of which we are unaware even exist?

Here's an in-depth article exploring the matter.
Click to expand...
"Free will", as it is commonly used, is an illusion. It's been shown that conscious recognition of making a decision lags behind actions taken because of that decision.
 
lizzie said:
I don't believe there IS a point where it begins or ends. There are certain choices that we make which are strictly free will. Others are influenced by environment, neurochemicals, and other factors. There is not a point in time at which one can say, I have free will, or I don't have free will.
Click to expand...
Any decision we make is influenced to some extent or other by all our knowledge, not just part of it, which includes our external as well as our internal environment. Even when I believed in "free will" I understood that my decisions were influenced and effected by many unknown and unknowable variables.
 
HonestJoe said:
I don't think free will can exists in a deterministic universe. There seem to be physical rules that apply to literally everything, including all the chemical and electrical processes in our brains - we don't understand half of them but know enough see the patterns. Every single aspect of the universe could, theoretically, be accurately predicted (though it's obviously impossible to hold the necessary data within the universe - the ultimate observation changing the observed).

The very real perception of free will exists because of our ignorance, individually and as a species, of the vast majority of those factors. I feel as if I have complete control over the words I'm typing here, expressing my deep-held opinions in the manner in which I choose to do so but in reality, every single thing that has impacted my life and everything before that leading up to it has inevitably and irrevocably led up to this very word: Bananas!

I bet nobody saw that coming. :D
Click to expand...
joG said:
The problem I see is that there doesn't really appear to be a theoretical possibility of the existence of free will, if physics is truly causal. Some people point to some quantum effect that might be able to allow for some sort of free will, but the argument doesn't really convince me very much.
Click to expand...
Quantum effects only allow for randomness, not free will. In fact, that's the only issue I have with Honest Joe's post above. Not everything little thing is deterministic because there are (quantum) random events that can on occasion have macroscopic effects.
 
calamity said:
Back to the age old question--is there free will? Is what we do done willfully, each action carried through with intent and forethought, or are we simply reacting to a myriad of stimuli, most of which we are unaware even exist?

Here's an in-depth article exploring the matter.
Click to expand...

The brain tumor thing I get. The rest of it? Well, if I am surveying two areas for people's likelihood of making change -- the bakery and the men's room -- one of the two of them is going to have greater numbers than the other. Some of the other examples in your excerpt don't prove we don't have free will. They simply show we can be influenced. There's a difference.
 
MoSurveyor said:
Any decision we make is influenced to some extent or other by all our knowledge, not just part of it, which includes our external as well as our internal environment. Even when I believed in "free will" I understood that my decisions were influenced and effected by many unknown and unknowable variables.
Click to expand...
Of course, but when you make a choice between two or more possible actions, you are using free will. You may be influenced by you knowledge and past experience, but that does not bind you choose a specific way. You can throw caution to the wind, just because you dare to.
 
MoSurveyor said:
Quantum effects only allow for randomness, not free will. In fact, that's the only issue I have with Honest Joe's post above. Not everything little thing is deterministic because there are (quantum) random events that can on occasion have macroscopic effects.
Click to expand...
The existence of randomness allows for the existence of free will - or at least, it makes testing for free will pretty much impossible.

As Lizzie just said, free will is the ability to make a decision in spite of physical factors - both concious and unconcious ones. If free will were not to exist, then a specific individual would make the same choice over and over again if faced with an identical set of physical influences (although given that memory is one of those physical factors, setting up such an experiment would be tricky). However, the existence of 'randomness' indicates that, in identical situations, a specific individual may not make that same choice. As such, that leaves room for free will - it is currently impossible to tell whether 'randomness' or 'free will' causes the outcome.
 
MaggieD said:
The brain tumor thing I get. The rest of it? Well, if I am surveying two areas for people's likelihood of making change -- the bakery and the men's room -- one of the two of them is going to have greater numbers than the other. Some of the other examples in your excerpt don't prove we don't have free will. They simply show we can be influenced. There's a difference.
Click to expand...
I agree...to a point.

For instance:
We can almost predict the traits of those who are involved in your typical murder, not only that of the perpetrators but also of the victims. They will almost assuredly both be male; 50% chance that they are Black. An overwhelming number will live in a low income urban environment; they will probably be unemployed and lacking education. The IQ of both the killer and victim will more than likely fall below 100; they will come from single parent homes; they will have been neglected and/or abused as children and under the influence of alcohol or on drugs as adults . . . Very few highly functioning people commit or fall victim to murder.

It would seem to me that these people are not in control of their impulses. The chemicals and electrical signals running through their bodies are not functioning properly. Something either went wrong during their upbringing or they are bad apples at birth. Any attempt at conflict resolution among these people is futile. Lashing out in violence is their reflexive response.

Free will, how much of it we really have, depends on circumstance. It depends on who your parents are, where you live, how you were raised, what you were fed, how much lead and mercury was in your water...the list of outside influences is endless.
 
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