Zen koans.

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, with the tiger hot on his tail. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge of the cliff. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down, and there, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one black and one white, little by little, started to gnaw away at the vine. The man noticed a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other hand. How sweet it tasted.

Your thoughts?

Sadling said:

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, with the tiger hot on his tail. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge of the cliff. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down, and there, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one black and one white, little by little, started to gnaw away at the vine. The man noticed a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other hand. How sweet it tasted.

Your thoughts?

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I recently heard this story. Suddenly Marcella ran to Mr. Toad. They guided their running angrily to hyperbolas or reflectors in the enrapturing cottage. Inside of their weary hearts a frightening desire was crooning of a mansion. Diane yodeled to Marcella during the time that Mr. Toad commenced to cry of foxes and doves.

Did you hear the latest about Hamlet?

You'll be amazed! Mortimer Snerd insulted a sloth-like knower who was dueling with Mortimer Snerd's badger because Hamlet, along with other sourpusss, insulted a cryer. Then smartness prevailed. Isn't that just awful? But what would you expect from a sourpuss? Newton said that if a citizen is honest, then Mortimer Snerd is dumb. Cough.

Instantly Sadling yodeled to Bill "my obsession is captivating, anyhow furious and infuriated theoreticians will speak during the time that foxes watch crows." Bill desired to madden or revile Sadling but started forthwith to speak "Hungry foxes are rambling to blue studios." Fascinating. Captivating. At all events a fox may ravenously eat meat and steak a hawk will soar over cucumbers and tomatoes because physicists are enraged. Spooky! In respect of a lamb, well Sadling may ponder that a lamb is revolting, anyway my fantasizing will guide my dissertation from Sadling to neutrons and neutrinos while Bill is reviling Sadling.

John McEnroe might have thought that a man traveling across a field encountered a tiger, but not Muhammad Ali. Ah. Sadling the tennis-player. Achoo! Here's a hilarious one: But, Sadling, I whisper that boxing ambiguities are depression. You chant that I'm maniacal and pugilistic but, Sadling, unhinged and loony theoreticians also sing about your dream or appearance of depression. Have I made my point? Yet fortunate theoreticians will spy depression as an unending passion. Therefore theoreticians cried to other theoreticians " Get set for interesting stories. " Revolting, eh? I just remembered this. A television, mansion and automobile are critical yet Diane desired a hyperbola! To see a van as an appearance or image in a sickening reflector maddened Diane. Why a hyperbola? A scientist might hum that a hyperbola is essential; angrily the scientist whispers "the hyperbola is important anyhow Diane ponders of houses and station wagons." Scary. Fascinating. This is peculiar. The scientist sings of a hyperbola while Diane dreams of trucks. Would Diane fantasize about the passions of Diane? Diane dreams that the scientist is loony. A hyperbola? Why? Diane crooned "Scientist, you're maniacal and so is Diane. A hyperbola indeed!" Diane now was supercilious. The scientist actually was arrogant. But Diane spoke to them "What is your opinion?" Hold on. Diane commenced to cry of jackals and eagles, even children or a cousin. Scary!

Pretty obvious. You're gonna die, may as well eat that piece of fruit. It's the last fruit your ever gonna eat, probably tastes good.

Sadling said:

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, with the tiger hot on his tail. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge of the cliff. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down, and there, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one black and one white, little by little, started to gnaw away at the vine. The man noticed a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other hand. How sweet it tasted.

Your thoughts?

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Tiger's milk comes in a myriad of flavors...

Bob Blaylock said:

I recently heard this story. Suddenly Marcella ran to Mr. Toad. They guided their running angrily to hyperbolas or reflectors in the enrapturing cottage. Inside of their weary hearts a frightening desire was crooning of a mansion. Diane yodeled to Marcella during the time that Mr. Toad commenced to cry of foxes and doves.

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Not bad . . . for sleep-posting!

KevinKohler said:

Pretty obvious. You're gonna die, may as well eat that piece of fruit. It's the last fruit your ever gonna eat, probably tastes good.

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Nope. The point of the story is so obvious that your answer is definitely a case of you not seeing the forest for the trees. The moral of the story is that you should never ever cross an open field in tiger country without a high-powered rifle, and certainly not where there might be cliffs.

Sadling said:

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, with the tiger hot on his tail. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge of the cliff. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down, and there, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one black and one white, little by little, started to gnaw away at the vine. The man noticed a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other hand. How sweet it tasted.

Your thoughts?

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dam mice

blarg said:

dam mice

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I know, right? After contemplating this koan for a couple of weeks, I went out and purchased a pellet-pistol, and I never leave home without it.

Sadling said:

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, with the tiger hot on his tail. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge of the cliff. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down, and there, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one black and one white, little by little, started to gnaw away at the vine. The man noticed a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other hand. How sweet it tasted.

Your thoughts?

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lulz

You always have to wonder how literally you're supposed to take these things.

NoC_T said:

lulz

You always have to wonder how literally you're supposed to take these things.

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I think they're intended to lead your mind somewhere. Like the one about whether a tree falling in the forest will make a sound if noone is there to hear it. If nothing else, it gets the mind working in a pattern other than the usual pattern of daily thought.

Sadling said:

I think they're intended to lead your mind somewhere. Like the one about whether a tree falling in the forest will make a sound if noone is there to hear it. If nothing else, it gets the mind working in a pattern other than the usual pattern of daily thought.

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It makes the sound of one hand clapping.

Sadling said:

I think they're intended to lead your mind somewhere. Like the one about whether a tree falling in the forest will make a sound if noone is there to hear it. If nothing else, it gets the mind working in a pattern other than the usual pattern of daily thought.

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I had that debate a long time ago. Apparently, a falling tree does indeed make a sound, despite there being no audience. After much shouting and threats of violence, we went with the dictionary definitions. Some **** about vibrations in air.

As for this one, my immediate association was with sublime acceptance of the inevitable. That's pithy, I know. But **** it. Koan's aren't definitive. I could translate it as having grave misgivings about ketchup and it would stand.

Grand Mal said:

It makes the sound of one hand clapping.

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Grand Mal wins.

NoC_T said:

I had that debate a long time ago. Apparently, a falling tree does indeed make a sound, despite there being no audience. After much shouting and threats of violence, we went with the dictionary definitions. Some **** about vibrations in air.

As for this one, my immediate association was with sublime acceptance of the inevitable. That's pithy, I know. But **** it. Koan's aren't definitive. I could translate it as having grave misgivings about ketchup and it would stand.

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The story of the tiger and the strawberry could serve as a metaphor in which the tiger above represents birth--from which you cannot return, and the tiger below represents death--from which there is no escape. The vine could represent our physical life from which we hang between birth and death.

And perhaps the mice represent time, gnawing away at our life, making our appointment with the tiger below an inevitable conclusion. The fact that the mice are black and white might point to the ever-present nature of the duality within which there can be no life without death, and no death without life, in the same way that there can be no up without down, no left without right, no happy without sad; can't have one without the other. How can there be this unless there's also that?

The strawberry could represent any and every thing that is in front of us in the now. With nothing to look back at and nothing to look forward to (frickin' tigers), the only thing that makes sense is to enjoy the strawberry in front of us. After all, what else is there but the moment? Following that line of thought, maybe I should view every human as a strawberry--some are ripe; some are not; some have developed slowly due to their position in the shade. etc., etc.

Maybe the mice are a blessing . . .

NoC_T said:

Grand Mal wins.

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Wins a drink of tea from an empty cup, to a round of one-handed applause?

Sadling said:

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, with the tiger hot on his tail. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge of the cliff. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down, and there, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one black and one white, little by little, started to gnaw away at the vine. The man noticed a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other hand. How sweet it tasted.

Your thoughts?

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Sounds pretty Zen to me.

Grand Mal said:

Wins a drink of tea from an empty cup, to a round of one-handed applause?

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Philistine.

You drink the applause to the accompaniment of an empty hand.

Sadling said:

The story of the tiger and the strawberry could serve as a metaphor in which the tiger above represents birth--from which you cannot return, and the tiger below represents death--from which there is no escape. The vine could represent our physical life from which we hang between birth and death.

And perhaps the mice represent time, gnawing away at our life, making our appointment with the tiger below an inevitable conclusion. The fact that the mice are black and white might point to the ever-present nature of the duality within which there can be no life without death, and no death without life, in the same way that there can be no up without down, no left without right, no happy without sad; can't have one without the other. How can there be this unless there's also that?

The strawberry could represent any and every thing that is in front of us in the now. With nothing to look back at and nothing to look forward to (frickin' tigers), the only thing that makes sense is to enjoy the strawberry in front of us. After all, what else is there but the moment? Following that line of thought, maybe I should view every human as a strawberry--some are ripe; some are not; some have developed slowly due to their position in the shade. etc., etc.

Maybe the mice are a blessing . . .

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Whoa! That's cool.

Nice one. :thumbs:

Sadling said:

I think they're intended to lead your mind somewhere. Like the one about whether a tree falling in the forest will make a sound if noone is there to hear it. If nothing else, it gets the mind working in a pattern other than the usual pattern of daily thought.

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Yeah that's true but they can also preoccupy your mind with useless thoughts. The tree in the forest asks us whether or not reality is anthropocentric, whether anything matters if there is no human to observe it, whether the universe exists if there is no mind to experience it. But whats the point of that?

Some zen koans can teach important things. Some have no absolute correct answer. They are answered through the subjective experience of the student. Like if you said, "What is, is what?"

OTOH there is the one where the butcher is asked which cut of meat in his shop is the best. He replies, "All my cuts of meat are the best. You will not find one piece of meat in this shop that is not the best."

Manny said:

Yeah that's true but they can also preoccupy your mind with useless thoughts. The tree in the forest asks us whether or not reality is anthropocentric, whether anything matters if there is no human to observe it, whether the universe exists if there is no mind to experience it. But whats the point of that?

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Possibly the point is to help expose our egocentric approach to life.

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Maybe the point of contempation is to discover how your ego has been leading you around by the nose for so long that you've come to a place where you've been using yourself as the standard by which to judge the merit and the capacity of those members which are actually an extension of you; that the hierarchy that you've created in your mind for the purpose of understanding the world better is an illusion, and in fact, fosters disconnection, and not understanding and co-operation.

The prevailing concensus among egos is that animals are below humans, plants are below animals, and rocks are below plants. But such an idea as that is akin to thinking that the liver has more meaning than the bladder, or that the eye possesses more knowledge than the tongue. Trees take in what you breathe out, and you take in what they breathe out. Can you think of anything more intimate? All is One, and One is All, unless you allow the ego to create a hierarchy, in which case the tree knows nothing of its experience . . . in your disconnected mind, anyway. When the ego hears the question in the koan, it right away runs to the issue of the nature of the human ear and the nature of sound, while the tree is not even considered part of the equation.

So, asking whether or not a tree falling in the forest will make a sound if no one is there to hear it is like asking the question: "If a man screams in a room full of people, and no one is there to hear him, will he make a sound?" Perhaps the answer is to simply roll your eyes at the one asking the question.

Sadling said:

Maybe the point of contempation is to discover how your ego has been leading you around by the nose for so long that you've come to a place where you've been using yourself as the standard by which to judge the merit and the capacity of those members which are actually an extension of you; that the hierarchy that you've created in your mind for the purpose of understanding the world better is an illusion, and in fact, fosters disconnection, and not understanding and co-operation.

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Yeah, that's kinda what I meant, I think.

Quantum mechanics would describe that all events or exchanges of energy are mere potentialities described by a wave function. A probability. It's only when it is measured that the wave function collapses, then it becomes actuality. This implies that nothing exists at all, outside of the mind.

Manny said:

This implies that nothing exists at all, outside of the mind.

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And that implies that there is no "outside of the mind." If that is true, then mind is a boundaryless boundary. And that makes one wonder if there are limitations to what the mind can achieve/create.

Sadling said:

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, with the tiger hot on his tail. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge of the cliff. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down, and there, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one black and one white, little by little, started to gnaw away at the vine. The man noticed a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other hand. How sweet it tasted.

Your thoughts?

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I believe this story is about taking time to enjoy the little pleasures of life before you die.

Mu to you too!

Stating that one of the mice is black is racist.