"God" breaks promises [W:136]

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

Those religions still ask for a suspension of logic and reasoning.

You're not offending my "sense" of atheism - I'm not sure to what you're referring. How are you judging success? And, even if I grant that premise, a successful snake oil salesman is still a snake oil salesman.

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Yes, they do. And billions are fine with that. What I don't get is why you think this will change. If anything, as poverty increases (relative to wealth) religion will be the comforter. What do you and the 100 people who own 50% of the wealth in the world have in common? The answer: "we are all equal in the eyes of god". Mighty tasty snake oil.

Re: "God" breaks promises

specklebang said:

Yes, they do. And billions are fine with that. What I don't get is why you think this will change. If anything, as poverty increases (relative to wealth) religion will be the comforter. What do you and the 100 people who own 50% of the wealth in the world have in common? The answer: "we are all equal in the eyes of god". Mighty tasty snake oil.

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Why will it change? For the same reason it's changing now. If anything, as poverty increases (relative to wealth) religion will not be the comforter. Would you rely on some hypothesized supernatural deity or rely on yourself, your own work ethic, your own education, etc.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

Why will it change? For the same reason it's changing now. If anything, as poverty increases (relative to wealth) religion will not be the comforter. Would you rely on some hypothesized supernatural deity or rely on yourself, your own work ethic, your own education, etc.

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Who, me? Or some peasant in Somalia? I think 80% of Americans believe in angels! So, all this "rely on yourself" stuff is meaningless.

Religion is the greatest comforter of all. Free salvation, a line direct to god (prayer). More comfort needed - more god sales.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

Why will it change? For the same reason it's changing now. If anything, as poverty increases (relative to wealth) religion will not be the comforter. Would you rely on some hypothesized supernatural deity or rely on yourself, your own work ethic, your own education, etc.

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Poverty and education often go hand in hand. And where you look statistically around the world for the least educated you also have the most religious and superstitious.

Re: "God" breaks promises

specklebang said:

Who, me? Or some peasant in Somalia? I think 80% of Americans believe in angels! So, all this "rely on yourself" stuff is meaningless.

Religion is the greatest comforter of all. Free salvation, a line direct to god (prayer). More comfort needed - more god sales.

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Scenario remains the same. How is the rely on yourself stuff meaningless?

Free salvation? Free? And prayer? That thing that has zero evidence to have actually worked and cannot actually do more harm? That's where the "New Atheism" (as it is often declared) comes in - more comfort needed doesn't necessitate more god sales.

Re: "God" breaks promises

grip said:

Poverty and education often go hand in hand. And where you look statistically around the world for the least educated you also have the most religious and superstitious.

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All the more reason to get an education. Break the cycle.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

All the more reason to get an education. Break the cycle.

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Education cost money and it's not easy to break the cycle of grinding poverty. Ever been way down? I have and it took me years of luck and hard work to gain any financial traction.

Re: "God" breaks promises

grip said:

Education cost money and it's not easy to break the cycle of grinding poverty. Ever been way down? I have and it took me years of luck and hard work to gain any financial traction.

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I have, but I got up, brushed myself off and continued on. It's not hard to gain financial traction, make yourself hirable. Duh.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

I have, but I got up, brushed myself off and continued on. It's not hard to gain financial traction, make yourself hirable. Duh.

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It's not hard? How far down were you, be honest.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

Scenario remains the same. How is the rely on yourself stuff meaningless?

Free salvation? Free? And prayer? That thing that has zero evidence to have actually worked and cannot actually do more harm? That's where the "New Atheism" (as it is often declared) comes in - more comfort needed doesn't necessitate more god sales.

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Despite coming from an extremely religious household, I never was able to become a believer. Religion drove me apart from my parents, both of whom were fine human beings. So, I was a lifelong disappointment to the 2 people I most wanted to appreciate me.

And I tried. I asked to go to religious school. But I just couldn't get into it. So, I ran away from home when I was very young and disappeared for 6 years, briefly contacted my family, and headed out to the frozen mountains of Korea, the jungles of Vietnam and the giant assortment of nookie that is Thailand.

But does not matter what you believe or I believe. It matters what a majority of humans believe. "Zero Evidence" has never been a point of defense in the past and it won't work now either. The designers of religion made this work because it is supposed to be based on faith. If anything becomes logical, they just increase the extremity of it because it must be based on FAITH - not EVIDENCE.

I'm surprised you don't see this through your intelligent eyes. Why would you assume for a moment that your POV will prevail? If you have FAITH, you won't die - you'll go to "a better place". If you have FAITH, your evil behavior will be forgiven. If you have FAITH, you gave community. Talk about strong marketing points - nothing beats FAITH (immortality included at no extra charge).

Even Atheism has become a religion. The Atheists have FAITH that there is no creator. Ridiculous. Where did this universe come from? From god of couurse. Not the god that you pray to or give money to, the power that created the big bang. That god is beyond human coiomprehension so we invented old men with beards and their convenient "children" and "prophets" to take this down to the simplistic level that a mortal can comprehend. Any day, I expect to see Athiest Churches built soio they can worship the non-worshiping.

Absurd but true.

Re: "God" breaks promises

grip said:

It's not hard? How far down were you, be honest.

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No job. Out of funding for my research.

specklebang said:

Despite coming from an extremely religious household, I never was able to become a believer. Religion drove me apart from my parents, both of whom were fine human beings. So, I was a lifelong disappointment to the 2 people I most wanted to appreciate me.

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I'm sorry to hear that, but that reflects on your parents, not on you. I'd point out to them how very un-Christian that attitude is.

And I tried. I asked to go to religious school. But I just couldn't get into it. So, I ran away from home when I was very young and disappeared for 6 years, briefly contacted my family, and headed out to the frozen mountains of Korea, the jungles of Vietnam and the giant assortment of nookie that is Thailand.

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Awesome. I'd love to spend some years working on venom toxicology, primatology, and evolutionary biology there.

But does not matter what you believe or I believe. It matters what a majority of humans believe. "Zero Evidence" has never been a point of defense in the past and it won't work now either. The designers of religion made this work because it is supposed to be based on faith. If anything becomes logical, they just increase the extremity of it because it must be based on FAITH - not EVIDENCE.

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There in lies the problem. You don't think this will eventually run out. It is my opinion, not really supported by science, that we are seeing this change now. Hence the increase of the AAN group.

I'm surprised you don't see this through your intelligent eyes. Why would you assume for a moment that your POV will prevail? If you have FAITH, you won't die - you'll go to "a better place". If you have FAITH, your evil behavior will be forgiven. If you have FAITH, you gave community. Talk about strong marketing points - nothing beats FAITH (immortality included at no extra charge).

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False premise. No one knows they will go to a better claim. They can claim it, but they can't know it. Why do I think my POV will prevail? Logic. Reasoning. Science. I don't know about you, but I'll take the disease cures over faith any day. I'd rather have the here-and-now over the uncertain future.

Even Atheism has become a religion. The Atheists have FAITH that there is no creator. Ridiculous. Where did this universe come from? From god of couurse. Not the god that you pray to or give money to, the power that created the big bang. That god is beyond human coiomprehension so we invented old men with beards and their convenient "children" and "prophets" to take this down to the simplistic level that a mortal can comprehend. Any day, I expect to see Athiest Churches built soio they can worship the non-worshiping.

Absurd but true.

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*sigh* This is often claimed. Atheists "have faith" there is no creator. This is simply not true. Atheists are simply non-believers in god. Of course, a vast majority (myself includes) are agnostic atheists. Regarding previous claims of gods, there is none of these in existence. However, the future is uncertain. It is possible a deity could make himself apparent tomorrow at 3:00pm CST. Hence where the agnostic part comes in - the future is not certain so I can't make a claim about what will be known in the future, especially given the lack of previous information presented.

Where'd the universe come from? Quantum fluctuations. Ikari could probably describe this more in detail than I could, given that physics is his field. The god that is beyond human comprehension? Of course this is a claim and I'll ask you to present evidence for this claim, yet I'm sure I'll receive none.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

No job. Out of funding for my research.

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I sincerely hope that's the worst you ever experience. Though there's a level of down way below that doesn't allow for much of a chance to come back easily. No car, no money, no assets, no medical, no job and no help to speak of for years. You're lucky to even eat every day and not lose weight for months on end. That level doesn't happen in today's society with the programs available, except for the homeless but the lack of job experience and education still do.

Re: "God" breaks promises

grip said:

I sincerely hope that's the worst you ever experience. Though there's a level of down way below that doesn't allow for much of a chance to come back easily. No car, no money, no assets, no medical, no job and no help to speak of for years. You're lucky to even eat every day and not lose weight for months on end. That level doesn't happen in today's society with the programs available, except for the homeless but the lack of job experience and education still do.

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Introductory jobs hire without previous experience. And education is available. Certainly, there are limited instances where these occur and circumstances cannot be helped, but there are many more where they can be helped but are simply not.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

Introductory jobs hire without previous experience. And education is available. Certainly, there are limited instances where these occur and circumstances cannot be helped, but there are many more where they can be helped but are simply not.

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Good points.
It's not the world I was raised in decades ago but in some cases today's children often have criminal records preventing them from advancing.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

No job. Out of funding for my research.



I'm sorry to hear that, but that reflects on your parents, not on you. I'd point out to them how very un-Christian that attitude is.



Awesome. I'd love to spend some years working on venom toxicology, primatology, and evolutionary biology there.



There in lies the problem. You don't think this will eventually run out. It is my opinion, not really supported by science, that we are seeing this change now. Hence the increase of the AAN group.



False premise. No one knows they will go to a better claim. They can claim it, but they can't know it. Why do I think my POV will prevail? Logic. Reasoning. Science. I don't know about you, but I'll take the disease cures over faith any day. I'd rather have the here-and-now over the uncertain future.



*sigh* This is often claimed. Atheists "have faith" there is no creator. This is simply not true. Atheists are simply non-believers in god. Of course, a vast majority (myself includes) are agnostic atheists. Regarding previous claims of gods, there is none of these in existence. However, the future is uncertain. It is possible a deity could make himself apparent tomorrow at 3:00pm CST. Hence where the agnostic part comes in - the future is not certain so I can't make a claim about what will be known in the future, especially given the lack of previous information presented.

Where'd the universe come from? Quantum fluctuations. Ikari could probably describe this more in detail than I could, given that physics is his field. The god that is beyond human comprehension? Of course this is a claim and I'll ask you to present evidence for this claim, yet I'm sure I'll receive none.

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I'm sorry to hear that, but that reflects on your parents, not on you. I'd point out to them how very un-Christian that attitude is.
••It's not a reflection issue. It was just too bad. My parents didn't reject me - I rejected them.


Awesome. I'd love to spend some years working on venom toxicology, primatology, and evolutionary biology there.
••So, why aren't you there? If I could do it I'm sure you can too. Just buy a plane ticket and go.


There in lies the problem. You don't think this will eventually run out. It is my opinion, not really supported by science, that we are seeing this change now. Hence the increase of the AAN group.
••Eventually, the sun will burn out also. But lets talk about the next 100 years. Are you expecting a wave of logic to sweep over us? We're lucky we don't burn withces anymore.


False premise. No one knows they will go to a better claim. They can claim it, but they can't know it. Why do I think my POV will prevail? Logic. Reasoning. Science. I don't know about you, but I'll take the disease cures over faith any day. I'd rather have the here-and-now over the uncertain future.
••What is a "false" premise? We accept unsubstantiated claims all the time. Just look at the claim Obama is a Kenyan. Millions of people believe that and millions don't. You keep trying to mke this about me and my POV. I'm discussing the topic, not my personal beliefs.

*sigh* This is often claimed. Atheists "have faith" there is no creator. This is simply not true. Atheists are simply non-believers in god. Of course, a vast majority (myself includes) are agnostic atheists. Regarding previous claims of gods, there is none of these in existence. However, the future is uncertain. It is possible a deity could make himself apparent tomorrow at 3:00pm CST. Hence where the agnostic part comes in - the future is not certain so I can't make a claim about what will be known in the future, especially given the lack of previous information presented.
••'sigh'. This is often claimed. Atheists have faith....ooh, thats right - the F word. Your passion is evidence of how much 'belief' believers have in not believing. And everyone is an Agnostic because nobody knows anything for sure. It's all just FAITH, regardless of direction.

Where'd the universe come from? Quantum fluctuations. Ikari could probably describe this more in detail than I could, given that physics is his field. The god that is beyond human comprehension? Of course this is a claim and I'll ask you to present evidence for this claim, yet I'm sure I'll receive none.
••The skies are filled with evidence. Where did all this stuff come from? Was there nothing and then there was something? So that "something" could be called god. Or you could call it Specklebang. I can't provide any evidence and neither can you.

Re: "God" breaks promises

grip said:

Good points.
It's not the world I was raised in decades ago but in some cases today's children often have criminal records preventing them from advancing.

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It's also becoming more common for people with "records" to become upstanding members of society.

Re: "God" breaks promises

specklebang said:

••It's not a reflection issue. It was just too bad. My parents didn't reject me - I rejected them.

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Good on you.

••So, why aren't you there? If I could do it I'm sure you can too. Just buy a plane ticket and go.

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My research here is more directly pressing.

••Eventually, the sun will burn out also. But lets talk about the next 100 years. Are you expecting a wave of logic to sweep over us? We're lucky we don't burn withces anymore.

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A "wave of logic?" Certainly not. But a drastic increase (especially compared to years past) in those of the AAN groups, yes.

••What is a "false" premise? We accept unsubstantiated claims all the time. Just look at the claim Obama is a Kenyan. Millions of people believe that and millions don't. You keep trying to mke this about me and my POV. I'm discussing the topic, not my personal beliefs.

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I, too, am discussing the topic. We accept unsubstantiated claims? I don't. You might.

••'sigh'. This is often claimed. Atheists have faith....ooh, thats right - the F word. Your passion is evidence of how much 'belief' believers have in not believing. And everyone is an Agnostic because nobody knows anything for sure. It's all just FAITH, regardless of direction.

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Sounds to me to be a solipsistic argument. You can't be certain of anything, so be certain of nothing. And, while I agree with skepticism, don't fall of the edge in the abyss of solipsism. It's a philosophical and scientific wasteland. And yes, I do pride myself on accepting claims backed by evidence. If there's no evidence, the claim is not accepted. That has more to do with me, personally, not my atheism. My atheism is a reflection of me, not my reflection of atheism.

••The skies are filled with evidence. Where did all this stuff come from? Was there nothing and then there was something? So that "something" could be called god. Or you could call it Specklebang. I can't provide any evidence and neither can you.

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I just told you the origins of the universe. There are works on the matter of quantum fluctuation(s) that could produce the universe. Supernatural matters need not be involved. That something could be called whatever you'd like to name it, but the physical term is "quantum fluctuation." And there's never nothing, at least not in the world of physics any more.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

Good on you.



My research here is more directly pressing.




A "wave of logic?" Certainly not. But a drastic increase (especially compared to years past) in those of the AAN groups, yes.



I, too, am discussing the topic. We accept unsubstantiated claims? I don't. You might.



Sounds to me to be a solipsistic argument. You can't be certain of anything, so be certain of nothing. And, while I agree with skepticism, don't fall of the edge in the abyss of solipsism. It's a philosophical and scientific wasteland. And yes, I do pride myself on accepting claims backed by evidence. If there's no evidence, the claim is not accepted. That has more to do with me, personally, not my atheism. My atheism is a reflection of me, not my reflection of atheism.



I just told you the origins of the universe. There are works on the matter of quantum fluctuation(s) that could produce the universe. Supernatural matters need not be involved. That something could be called whatever you'd like to name it, but the physical term is "quantum fluctuation." And there's never nothing, at least not in the world of physics any more.

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I, too, am discussing the topic. We accept unsubstantiated claims? I don't. You might.
Really. You have no opinions on anything you haven't seen and touched yourself? You're much more definitive than I am.


Sounds to me to be a solipsistic argument. You can't be certain of anything, so be certain of nothing. And, while I agree with skepticism, don't fall of the edge in the abyss of solipsism. It's a philosophical and scientific wasteland. And yes, I do pride myself on accepting claims backed by evidence. If there's no evidence, the claim is not accepted. That has more to do with me, personally, not my atheism. My atheism is a reflection of me, not my reflection of atheism.

••So, if I claim that I have 3 cats you don't believe me? Do you think I think that you exist only in my dreams? C'mon, be reasonable. There are a lot of things that you take other peoples words for. Hell, the earth might be flat. We believe in what seems logical to us - we can't document everything we think we know.

I just told you the origins of the universe. There are works on the matter of quantum fluctuation(s) that could produce the universe. Supernatural matters need not be involved. That something could be called whatever you'd like to name it, but the physical term is "quantum fluctuation." And there's never nothing, at least not in the world of physics any more.
••So there are works on the matter of quantum fluctuation. And here you are taking them at face value. They could be complete BS for all you know. They seem logical to you so you accept them.

Maybe these quantum fluctuations are god. Not the god with the beard. The "quantum fluctuation" force that created the universe. Your vision of the term "god" is an old geezer in the sky. I don't buy that at all, so we agree there is no god as humans try to market it. But there is an epicenter to the universe and that might be the very god you deny because you don't like the term. No prayer required. No belief required.

If you think a tidal wave of Atheism is coming, what I see instead are the same kind of people that create false religions. You'll organize atheists and thus money will be needed to build non-churches and pay the salaries of the chief atheists. AAN. Exactly the same as a religion. Just another con.

Re: "God" breaks promises

specklebang said:

Really. You have no opinions on anything you haven't seen and touched yourself? You're much more definitive than I am.

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How did you get that from me not accepting unsubstantiated claims?

••So, if I claim that I have 3 cats you don't believe me? Do you think I think that you exist only in my dreams? C'mon, be reasonable. There are a lot of things that you take other peoples words for. Hell, the earth might be flat. We believe in what seems logical to us - we can't document everything we think we know.

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We can document everything we think we know. And I don't know whether you have 3 cats or not. Until you show me otherwise with documented proof, I will not accept your claim (not that it matters haha). Of course, this is a bit different from a deity as, at least it's a logic possibility of you having cats - there's no supernatural realm invoked.

••So there are works on the matter of quantum fluctuation. And here you are taking them at face value. They could be complete BS for all you know. They seem logical to you so you accept them.

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Along with their predicted existence, the evidence for them, and the evidence from further hypotheses.

Maybe these quantum fluctuations are god. Not the god with the beard. The "quantum fluctuation" force that created the universe. Your vision of the term "god" is an old geezer in the sky. I don't buy that at all, so we agree there is no god as humans try to market it. But there is an epicenter to the universe and that might be the very god you deny because you don't like the term. No prayer required. No belief required.

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God is supernatural. Those are natural. What evidence do you have for the "epicenter of the universe" claim?

If you think a tidal wave of Atheism is coming, what I see instead are the same kind of people that create false religions. You'll organize atheists and thus money will be needed to build non-churches and pay the salaries of the chief atheists. AAN. Exactly the same as a religion. Just another con.

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Not just atheism - that's why I specifically said AAN - atheist, agnostic, and non-religious. Can you elaborate on your misconception of atheism, please? Who is this main ruler? This supreme being? Who are these chief atheists? I'm an atheist. Paschendale is an atheist. Ikari is an atheist. Cephus is an atheist. I could go on. Who is the supreme one of that group? What's the con of the AAN movement?

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

How did you get that from me not accepting unsubstantiated claims?
We can document everything we think we know. And I don't know whether you have 3 cats or not. Until you show me otherwise with documented proof, I will not accept your claim (not that it matters haha). Of course, this is a bit different from a deity as, at least it's a logic possibility of you having cats - there's no supernatural realm invoked.

Along with their predicted existence, the evidence for them, and the evidence from further hypotheses.

God is supernatural. Those are natural. What evidence do you have for the "epicenter of the universe" claim?

Not just atheism - that's why I specifically said AAN - atheist, agnostic, and non-religious. Can you elaborate on your misconception of atheism, please? Who is this main ruler? This supreme being? Who are these chief atheists? I'm an atheist. Paschendale is an atheist. Ikari is an atheist. Cephus is an atheist. I could go on. Who is the supreme one of that group? What's the con of the AAN movement?

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No, "god" is not supernatural. God is whatever you think it is. I think it is the Big Bang. But I can't "prove" that, just as you can't prove there is no life on Mars.

https://atheists.org/donate

Donations

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Atheists Unite | Indiegogo

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Will that suffice? Or isn't this real enough for you? It's just another racket selling the un-god instead of the god and they have their true believers.

Re: "God" breaks promises

specklebang said:

No, "god" is not supernatural. God is whatever you think it is. I think it is the Big Bang. But I can't "prove" that, just as you can't prove there is no life on Mars.

https://atheists.org/donate

Donations

Atheists Giving Aid – Boston Marathon Tragedy | We Are Atheism

Atheists Unite | Indiegogo

Atheist Census - Support Atheist Census - Donate

Will that suffice? Or isn't this real enough for you? It's just another racket selling the un-god instead of the god and they have their true believers.

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So now you're just changing meanings of words? Interesting. And I like how you answered exactly zero of my questions. That says a lot. Also, notice how none of them have these "churches" you're referring to.

There are no promises of future lives etc. in the atheism movement. Again, atheism doesn't need a belief system; rather, it's the exact opposite. I'm sorry words (and their meanings) escape you.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

So now you're just changing meanings of words? Interesting. And I like how you answered exactly zero of my questions. That says a lot. Also, notice how none of them have these "churches" you're referring to.

There are no promises of future lives etc. in the atheism movement. Again, atheism doesn't need a belief system; rather, it's the exact opposite. I'm sorry words (and their meanings) escape you.

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Maybe if you restate your questions as, well, questions, I can try to give you a more specific answer.

You are bordering on rudeness with "I'm sorry words (and their meanings) escape you". Don't be tempted to take personal shots at me. This is an internet discussion of hypothetical issues. We are here to have fun but I have been polite to you and I expect the same in return. Attack the topic, not the poster. I'm at least as intelligent as you are, and quite capable of understanding words, so lets stick with respect.

Re: "God" breaks promises

zgoldsmith23 said:

It's also becoming more common for people with "records" to become upstanding members of society.

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It's possible but definitely a road block in some cases. With tough laws on the books for DUI, mandatory minimum sentences and other easy felonies we're losing a lot of potentially good workers from society with these records. I've got a niece with an IQ in the Mensa range who was studying for her nursing degree when an altercation of road rage (partially her fault) caused her to get an aggr/batt felony charge. Now she's essentially eliminated from most professional positions and will struggle to even get a low wage position. Companies can easily do online background checks thru public records.

Re: "God" breaks promises

specklebang said:

Maybe if you restate your questions as, well, questions, I can try to give you a more specific answer.

You are bordering on rudeness with "I'm sorry words (and their meanings) escape you". Don't be tempted to take personal shots at me. This is an internet discussion of hypothetical issues. We are here to have fun but I have been polite to you and I expect the same in return. Attack the topic, not the poster. I'm at least as intelligent as you are, and quite capable of understanding words, so lets stick with respect.

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When I want to be rude, you'll know it. Anyway:

"Who is this main ruler [of atheism]? This supreme being? Who are these chief atheists? I'm an atheist. Paschendale is an atheist. Ikari is an atheist. Cephus is an atheist. I could go on. You're an atheist (or so you claim). Who is the supreme one of that group? What's the con of the AAN movement?"

Too, I asked: "What evidence do you have for the 'epicenter of the universe' claim?"

grip said:

It's possible but definitely a road block in some cases. With tough laws on the books for DUI, mandatory minimum sentences and other easy felonies we're losing a lot of potentially good workers from society with these records. I've got a niece with an IQ in the Mensa range who was studying for her nursing degree when an altercation of road rage (partially her fault) caused her to get an aggr/batt felony charge. Now she's essentially eliminated from most professional positions and will struggle to even get a low wage position. Companies can easily do online background checks thru public records.

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Never really like Mensa. Never understood the purpose. Wanna showcase how smart you are? Go win a Nobel Prize. Win a Lasker award. Win the Copley medal. Become a member of the NAS. I could go on. Anyways, it's not like this is secret knowledge. Here's a brilliant idea: if you want a solid career, don't commit these felonies. Simple.

Re: "God" breaks promises

Manny said:

Is Jesus a descendant of Abraham?

Yes, yes he is.

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Hmm I'm not expert but I though the was the son of God and not of this Earth.

Are you saying that is not true?