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a child is the future Hitler argument.

Well

  • Right to kill the child

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Wrong to kill the child

    Votes: 13 56.5%
  • Right to let the child live

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Wrong to let the child live

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • other

    Votes: 7 30.4%

  • Total voters
    23
I don't care if they were too idiotic to be organized; the rhetoric and general demeanor far more closely matches that of the fascist movements of the 20th century than the tea party groups do. "Hilarious" that you don't realize that.

:lamo

It's ALWAYS revolutionary groups who bring fascism.

:lamo

See, from my pov, I would say if you are going to present an argument...like OWS is a fascist movement, you have to do more than calling them fascists over and over again! The same tactic was used ever since the McCarthy Era to label every critic of capitalism - a communist, and a possible Soviet agent. No proof had to be offered, and the definition of communism was so loose that it could include everyone from Hitler to anti-Vietnam War Senator - Eugene McCarthy!

And here you are declaring:"revolutionary groups...bring fascism," which is a logical absurdity! Since the purpose of a fascist movement is to quickly seize control of the state and prevent any revolutionary groups from rising up in opposition. Yeah, that really matches OWS!

I would say that, based on the way the tea party activists behaved during the Wall Street banking meltdown (shifting the blame for inflated mortgage markets from Wall Street firms who violated basic banking principles and onto homeowners and the FDIC), that was as clear an indication as needed that the tea party populism works in the service of large powerful interests, rather than average people.....and if this has any vague connection to the 'future Hitler' dilemma, it's that future Hitler is going to take great interest in cultivating tea party groups as his base of support. No fascist in his right mind, would try to develop an alliance with anti-capitalist radicals!
 
Not only that but any number of circumstances could have been different in his life and therefore even if he still became head of Germany, his goals, his choices, all could have ended quite differently, perhaps well even.... Seems if I recall his history, he had somewhat valid reasons to feel hatred, though it's very confusing why he aimed it where he did. We have to remember that his supposed ideals were pretty well accepted in the USA during that time in history. Environment and circumstances may have been the things that took what would have otherwise been a normal American persona and turned it into the hateful destroyer he became.
I got muddled down trying to advance the position that a fascist leader cannot take power without a movement and the right set of social conditions in a previous post. It may have got muddled up, but I am a fan of philosophy and psychology with a high school education!

Your point adds the other ingredient in a determinist argument against the premise set out in the OP - not only would actions of potential Hitler be limited by his environment, his very psychological makeup would also be shaped by his environment, which includes the fact that our "souls" are the manifestation of physical brain function. We are born with a set of genetic programming for brain development; but the way our brains develop is determined by factors in the womb like prenatal nutrition, and afterwards by the emotional bond the child has with its mother, and continues on as the child grows and his or her brain development (and personality) is shaped by a multitude of environmental factors....ALL of which CANNOT be determined at birth...even if there was such a thing as a time machine.

So, if it's been referenced yet - that old Star Trek episode where they go back to 20th century America, and Cap. Kirk meets...and of course falls in love with the woman (Joan Collins) who will be the mother of the future Hitler..Genghis Khan...whatever, it was an unnecessary act of manslaughter!
 
See, from my pov, I would say if you are going to present an argument...like OWS is a fascist movement, you have to do more than calling them fascists over and over again!

From MY POV, it always helps to address what the other person actually said, rather than what you wish they said.

I didn't say it was a "fascist movement." I said -- twice -- and you quoted me saying it -- twice -- that the rhetoric and general demeanor of OWS far more closely matches the fascist movements of the 20th century than the tea party groups do. And it does, with its populist, anti-capitalist, anti-bourgeois, revolutionary claptrap -- radical change, replacing the system with tighter controls, punishing profiteering criminals and government sellouts, what have you. Not to mention their rabble-rousing, intentionally-disruptive, and often destructive behavior. You are obviously quite unfamiliar with the actual rise of fascism as it historically took root, and the rhetoric/demeanor thereof.


The same tactic was used ever since the McCarthy Era to label every critic of capitalism blah blah blah whiny blah blah blah

You can't even quote what I said properly; it's no wonder none of this histrionic bull**** applies to it.


And here you are declaring:"revolutionary groups...bring fascism," which is a logical absurdity!

No. You're demonstrating reading comprehension problems again, and quoting me dishonestly to boot.

I didn't say "revolutionary groups bring fascism," as in, that's what all revolutionary groups do.

I said fascism has always been brought by revolutionary groups, and it has, whether under Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, or whatever other tinpot happened to seize power.

You may want to brush up on "logic," if indeed you've ever been exposed to what it actually is.


Since the purpose of a fascist movement is to quickly seize control of the state and prevent any revolutionary groups from rising up in opposition.

Every revolutionary group does that, if it's successful. And that's not the specific "purpose" of a "fascist movement" -- it's merely a method of consolidating power.


Yeah, that really matches OWS!

Oh, dear; there you go addressing things I didn't say again.


I would say that, based on the way the tea party activists behaved during the Wall Street banking meltdown (shifting the blame for inflated mortgage markets from Wall Street firms who violated basic banking principles and onto homeowners and the FDIC), that was as clear an indication as needed that the tea party populism works in the service of large powerful interests, rather than average people.....and if this has any vague connection to the 'future Hitler' dilemma, it's that future Hitler is going to take great interest in cultivating tea party groups as his base of support. No fascist in his right mind, would try to develop an alliance with anti-capitalist radicals!

Weird; I can find no instances where the "tea party" did any such thing. And even they did, see above about your complete ignorance as to what fascist groups wanted and protested against.

But whatever the tea party groups blamed it on, OWS was blaming Jewish bankers. Huh. Who else did that? And, not for nothing, between the tea party groups and OWS, which one did the American Nazi Party throw in with? Hmmm.
 
From MY POV, it always helps to address what the other person actually said, rather than what you wish they said.

I didn't say it was a "fascist movement." I said -- twice -- and you quoted me saying it -- twice -- that the rhetoric and general demeanor of OWS far more closely matches the fascist movements of the 20th century than the tea party groups do. And it does, with its populist, anti-capitalist, anti-bourgeois, revolutionary claptrap -- radical change, replacing the system with tighter controls, punishing profiteering criminals and government sellouts, what have you. Not to mention their rabble-rousing, intentionally-disruptive, and often destructive behavior. You are obviously quite unfamiliar with the actual rise of fascism as it historically took root, and the rhetoric/demeanor thereof.
Before I go any further, OWS featured many speeches against bankers, brought attention to the long ignored problem of income inequality with the focus on "One Percent," but they were an anarchist movement that never developed leadership, and could not advocate policy solutions to the problems, so your claims that they are trying to take away your capitalism are just further examples of your blame-shifting.

Now, maybe you should provide a clear definition of what you consider "fascism," because there is no set definition of the term; it has been determined by the regimes since Mussolini, who first coined the term and advocated a fascist governing system.

For me, fascism is a response to upper class fears of dissent in the lower classes. And that's why I view conservatism as part of the same tree! Populist revolutionary groups...whether good or bad, begin in the anger, resentment and desires for change in the lower classes...like the peasants and first generation mill workers of old. The bankers, aristocrats, religious authorities, and others who's interests are tied with maintaining an unequal, hierarchical system of economy and government, know that they don't have the numbers and will go broke paying for soldiers and security forces to defend their interests. So, they noticed that lower class people are not only concerned about money issues, but intangible things that they value. And so, the fascist opportunist...whether he calls himself a conservative or a libertarian, is off and running with eloquent words tying him and his movement with God and Country and Freedom and the Constitution and the Founding Fathers....or whatever buzzwords press the buttons of people who desire strong leaders who will do their thinking for them, and fix everything and turn the nation back to a glory days....that never actually existed in real history!

So, once again, from my pov, socialism from democratic to left anarchist to communism, are movements that depend on advocating equality; while conservatism, right libertarianism and the aggressive form that makes no pretense to democracy - fascism, are the reactionary movements spawned by groups who see their interests threatened by any kind of populist uprising...whether peaceful or violent!
 
Before I go any further, OWS featured many speeches against bankers, brought attention to the long ignored problem of income inequality with the focus on "One Percent," but they were an anarchist movement that never developed leadership, and could not advocate policy solutions to the problems, so your claims that they are trying to take away your capitalism are just further examples of your blame-shifting.

Now, maybe you should provide a clear definition of what you consider "fascism," because there is no set definition of the term; it has been determined by the regimes since Mussolini, who first coined the term and advocated a fascist governing system.

You apparently are determined to bleat about what you want to bleat about rather than a word I actually said.

What you think fascism is doesn't have a thing to do with what I said, but you haven't been able to comprehend a word I've written all along, so it should not be surprising that you're droning on and on about things I didn't say.

I said -- for the fourth time -- that the rhetoric and demeanor of OWS more closely matches that of the fascist movements of the 20th century than the tea party groups do.


For me, fascism is a response to upper class fears of dissent in the lower classes.

Well, that may be what you've chosen to believe, but that's never what it was. Fascism came out of the lower classes. It was a movement of the lower classes against the rich, not of the rich.

Your historical ignorance, when juxtaposed against your arrogant pontifications, makes me laugh.


And that's why I view conservatism as part of the same tree!

That's because you don't know what you're talking about. Oh, sorry -- that's because you don't know what you're talking about! (Just trying to get the tone to match.)


Populist revolutionary groups...whether good or bad, begin in the anger, resentment and desires for change in the lower classes...like the peasants and first generation mill workers of old.

Just like the fascists did.


The bankers, aristocrats, religious authorities, and others who's interests are tied with maintaining an unequal, hierarchical system of economy and government, know that they don't have the numbers and will go broke paying for soldiers and security forces to defend their interests. So, they noticed that lower class people are not only concerned about money issues, but intangible things that they value.

Crazy! You agree with the fascists!


And so, the fascist opportunist...whether he calls himself a conservative or a libertarian,

That's just slobberingly idiotic. People can, of course, lie about what they are, but libertarians are the diametric opposites of fascist.


is off and running with eloquent words tying him and his movement with God and Country and Freedom and the Constitution and the Founding Fathers....or whatever buzzwords press the buttons of people who desire strong leaders who will do their thinking for them, and fix everything and turn the nation back to a glory days....that never actually existed in real history!

^^^^^^
Nonsense babble.


So, once again, from my pov, socialism from democratic to left anarchist to communism, are movements that depend on advocating equality; while conservatism, right libertarianism and the aggressive form that makes no pretense to democracy - fascism, are the reactionary movements spawned by groups who see their interests threatened by any kind of populist uprising...whether peaceful or violent!

Well, your "POV" is steeped in absurd ignorance -- historical, philosophical, and epistemological.
 
Morally wrong. You don't prevent evil by committing evil. To do so presumes that one knows the future. In a just society, people are punished for actions, and not thoughts, beliefs, or what they may, or may not, do in the future.
I'd add that it is morally correct to publish people for intent, as well. That is, I don't see where a person guilty of attempted murder is less guilty than a successful murderer, or entitled to a lesser chastisement.
 
I'd add that it is morally correct to publish people for intent, as well. That is, I don't see where a person guilty of attempted murder is less guilty than a successful murderer, or entitled to a lesser chastisement.

It Takes a Village to raise a child, yes?
 
Here is some food for thought. If you had the future knowledge that child would become the next Hitler would it be morally right or wrong to kill/let that child live?

I'm going to convert this into an easier argument if you don't mind.

Q: Would you kill a child if it was the only means of preventing genocide and global war?

A: Yes. Absolutely.
 
Not sure but leaning towards No.

This also leads to Time Travel Theories - which don't always necessarily relate exclusively to only time travel but even to the present and the consequences it has on the future.

Consider the option of the Ripple Effect Theory, AKA the Butterfly Effect Theory.

There is also the option of alternative methods that would change how they see things. For example, ensuring that any negative influences are removed from their life and that they are instead given better influences to make them grow to be a better person.

In Criminology, you learn about life course theories and latent trait theories - so that needs to be considered as well.
 
Stick to the question instead of flapping off about your philosophical puke. Yes I would not hesitate to kill the child and I would make damn certain it was dead. Case closed.
 
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