• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Entire, Eternal Discussion/Question Will Never Be Closed

rhinefire

rhinefire

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
10,399
Reaction score
3,021
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
"Death" is at the core of every philosophical and religious declaration. Man knows nothing about it. Since the beginning, however you personally define it, man has struggled to try to get the smallest peak at death. One glimpse, one hint, one spark but nothing. Like death "nothing" is what drives man to seek some kind of rational or reason for all that is. Death and nothing terrify us. We fear what we cannot see, touch, hear therefore cannot prove. We have no answer so we make one up then another person makes up another then we debate which tale is "the truth". This is what we are, this is what we do. Man hangs tags on all the different tales told throughout existence, most of the tags end in ism. Tragically, we will never stop. "ISM" should be the universal word for "we don't have a clue".
 
rhinefire said:
"Death" is at the core of every philosophical and religious declaration. Man knows nothing about it. Since the beginning, however you personally define it, man has struggled to try to get the smallest peak at death. One glimpse, one hint, one spark but nothing. Like death "nothing" is what drives man to seek some kind of rational or reason for all that is. Death and nothing terrify us. We fear what we cannot see, touch, hear therefore cannot prove. We have no answer so we make one up then another person makes up another then we debate which tale is "the truth". This is what we are, this is what we do. Man hangs tags on all the different tales told throughout existence, most of the tags end in ism. Tragically, we will never stop. "ISM" should be the universal word for "we don't have a clue".
Click to expand...

There's one who died and was resurrected - Jesus Christ. And he told us all about it. You can read about it in the New Testament.
 
I've the horrid suspicion that death is like toffee without enough sugar in it.
 
rhinefire said:
"Death" is at the core of every philosophical and religious declaration. Man knows nothing about it.
Click to expand...

The only thing that makes me nervous about dying is the process of dying. How does the actual process of dying feels like?
I guess a lot feel the same way.

But death itself, what is there to be frightened about?

From the standpoint of a faithful Christian - it's but a sleep. Until the time when he rises up to meet his Lord.

From the standpoint of a non-believer - it's simply the finality. Or is it?
That last question must've crossed several non-believing minds.
 
Observation in nature tells us exactly what death is: the moment a complex system stops working. The fusion reaction in a sun peters out, the complex electrical patterns in computer memory disperse and the self sustaining chemical reaction known as life ceases to continue. We have no problem accepting that for machines or even simpler lifeforms. Nobody questions that bacteria simply become unable to continue the chemical cycles needed to maintain their existence and die.

However, when it comes to humans we have to throw out all the evidence. We might operate on the exactly the same principles as those bacteria, but we pretend we are special snowflakes who don't really die because we are afraid of our own mortality. Oblivion makes us very uncomfortable, so we invent whatever rationalizations are needed to soothe our fears.
 
rathi said:
Observation in nature tells us exactly what death is: the moment a complex system stops working. The fusion reaction in a sun peters out, the complex electrical patterns in computer memory disperse and the self sustaining chemical reaction known as life ceases to continue. We have no problem accepting that for machines or even simpler lifeforms. Nobody questions that bacteria simply become unable to continue the chemical cycles needed to maintain their existence and die.

However, when it comes to humans we have to throw out all the evidence. We might operate on the exactly the same principles as those bacteria, but we pretend we are special snowflakes who don't really die because we are afraid of our own mortality. Oblivion makes us very uncomfortable, so we invent whatever rationalizations are needed to soothe our fears.
Click to expand...


The reason we throw away those evidence..... could it be because we could clearly see that humans are very much different from bacteria? Or the sun? or machines?


Brain Waves Surge Moments Before Death
Oct 6, 2009

Doctors at George Washington University Medical Faculty Associates recorded brain activity of people dying from critical illnesses, such as cancer or heart attacks.

Moments before death, the patients experienced a burst in brain wave activity, with the spikes occurring at the same time before death and at comparable intensity and duration.

Writing in the October issue of the Journal of Palliative Medicine, the doctors theorize that the brain surges may be tied to widely reported near-death experiences which typically involve spiritual or religious attributes.
Click to expand...
Brain Waves Surge Moments Before Death : Discovery News


Neuroscientist Says He Experienced Life After Death
Dec 13, 2012

A Harvard neurosurgeon describes what he says was a near-death experience in his latest book -- and there are skeptics.

It was November 2008 and a rare bacterial meningitis was fast on its way to shutting down the University of Virginia neurosurgeon's neocortex -- the part of the brain that deals with sensory perception and conscious thought.

"For seven days, I lay in a deep coma," he recalled. Yet at the same time, Alexander "journeyed to another, larger dimension of the universe, a dimension I'd never dreamed existed."

There he found "big, puffy, pink-white" clouds against a "deep, black-blue sky" and "flocks of transparent, shimmering beings… quite simply different from anything I have known on this planet."

It turns out Alexander was not alone.
Click to expand...
Neuroscientist Says He Experienced Life After Death : Discovery News



Quantum physics proves that there IS an afterlife, claims scientist
14 November 2013

Most scientists would probably say that the concept of an afterlife is either nonsense, or at the very least unprovable.

Yet one expert claims he has evidence to confirm an existence beyond the grave - and it lies in quantum physics.

Professor Robert Lanza claims the theory of biocentrism teaches that death as we know it is an illusion created by our consciousness.
Click to expand...
Read more: Quantum physics proves that there IS an afterlife, claims scientist | Mail Online


10 Reasons to Believe In Life After Death
Click to expand...
http://discoveryseries.org/ten-reasons/in-life-after-death/
 
Last edited:
rathi said:
Observation in nature tells us exactly what death is: the moment a complex system stops working. The fusion reaction in a sun peters out, the complex electrical patterns in computer memory disperse and the self sustaining chemical reaction known as life ceases to continue. We have no problem accepting that for machines or even simpler lifeforms. Nobody questions that bacteria simply become unable to continue the chemical cycles needed to maintain their existence and die.
Click to expand...

Well, this is odd. What are we supposed to infer from this? Suppose bacteria have souls. What you say would still be true, and the souls would simply divorce from the bacterium upon death.

rathi said:
However, when it comes to humans we have to throw out all the evidence. We might operate on the exactly the same principles as those bacteria, but we pretend we are special snowflakes who don't really die because we are afraid of our own mortality. Oblivion makes us very uncomfortable, so we invent whatever rationalizations are needed to soothe our fears.
Click to expand...

The very earliest afterlife beliefs for which we have sufficient detail are not comforting at all. The Canaanite/Semitic concept was that, upon death, one would go into Sheol, where the larvae would simply devour you, upon which, oblivion would ensue. The experience was horrifying and painful, exactly as if you died by being eaten by maggots. Now, if the point was to be comforting, why in the world would someone invent that belief?
 
ashurbanipal said:
Well, this is odd. What are we supposed to infer from this? Suppose bacteria have souls. What you say would still be true, and the souls would simply divorce from the bacterium upon death.



The very earliest afterlife beliefs for which we have sufficient detail are not comforting at all. The Canaanite/Semitic concept was that, upon death, one would go into Sheol, where the larvae would simply devour you, upon which, oblivion would ensue. The experience was horrifying and painful, exactly as if you died by being eaten by maggots. Now, if the point was to be comforting, why in the world would someone invent that belief?
Click to expand...

I've never heard this "belief" before. I'm no biblical scholar but I've read (and skimmed) The Old Testament over to cover along with the footnotes.

Death is most likely oblivion. How frustrating. All you know, all you posses, all you have to offer, everything, extinguished like a candle in the wind. No wonder religion has made a huge business of "after-life". We are desperate. And rightfully so.

Look at G. Washington, our most famous president. On every dollar bill. Every child knows about him. Terror of the cherry trees. But he's dead and none of this does him an iota of good. Death is - well - awful.
 
specklebang said:
I've never heard this "belief" before. I'm no biblical scholar but I've read (and skimmed) The Old Testament over to cover along with the footnotes.

Death is most likely oblivion. How frustrating. All you know, all you posses, all you have to offer, everything, extinguished like a candle in the wind. No wonder religion has made a huge business of "after-life". We are desperate. And rightfully so.

Look at G. Washington, our most famous president. On every dollar bill. Every child knows about him. Terror of the cherry trees. But he's dead and none of this does him an iota of good. Death is - well - awful.
Click to expand...

Awesome. A straight, I'm just going to stare into the abyss and accept it for what it is, response. It is awful, period.
 
specklebang said:
I've never heard this "belief" before. I'm no biblical scholar but I've read (and skimmed) The Old Testament over to cover along with the footnotes.
Click to expand...

My understanding of Sheol is not anything terrible or painful.

17 In the grave, sinful people don’t cause trouble anymore.
And there those who are tired find rest.
18 Prisoners also enjoy peace there.
They don’t hear a slave driver shouting at them anymore.
19 The least important and most important people are there.
And there the slaves are set free from their owners.
Click to expand...
Job 3 NIRV - Job Wishes He Had Never Been Born - Bible Gateway


It's a place to wait until God resurrects everyone.

13 Please hide me, God,
deep in the ground—
and when you are angry no more,
remember to rescue me.
Click to expand...
Job 14:13-15 -



Death is most likely oblivion. How frustrating. All you know, all you posses, all you have to offer, everything, extinguished like a candle in the wind. No wonder religion has made a huge business of "after-life". We are desperate. And rightfully so.

Look at G. Washington, our most famous president. On every dollar bill. Every child knows about him. Terror of the cherry trees. But he's dead and none of this does him an iota of good. Death is - well - awful.
Click to expand...

I will not disappear into oblivion when I die. My influence in the world will remain, in minor and even unknown ways. My afterlife, my soul or spirit, is my influence. The afterlife is not about getting stuff for oneself, it's about existing spiritually.
 
specklebang said:
I've never heard this "belief" before. I'm no biblical scholar but I've read (and skimmed) The Old Testament over to cover along with the footnotes.
Click to expand...

There aren't any footnotes to the Tanakh. There are medieval and ancient commentaries.

specklebang said:
Death is most likely oblivion. How frustrating. All you know, all you posses, all you have to offer, everything, extinguished like a candle in the wind.
Click to expand...

Why do you think this?
 
ecofarm said:
My understanding of Sheol is not anything terrible or painful.
Click to expand...

It's hard to say; by the 8th century B.C.E., it at least wasn't a harmful place. It's possible, and even likely, that it had morphed into a place somewhat akin to Tartaros, where the shades gather.
 
ashurbanipal said:
It's hard to say; by the 8th century B.C.E., it at least wasn't a harmful place. It's possible, and even likely, that it had morphed into a place somewhat akin to Tartaros, where the shades gather.
Click to expand...

I believe (via Christianity) it morphed into an incineration - total annihilation - of evil influence in the world, as promised by Jesus and to be enforced someday by God. That was then morphed into a place where a red dude pokes people forever.

Personally, I believe that eternal damnation/torture without hope is disgusting to God. If God is ok with that, then why go through all the trouble of providing salvation in the first place.
 
Last edited:
20 reasons why sheol is not necessarily the grave:

Even if the word sheol did refer to a literal grave so what! The word "spirit" sometimes refers to literal wind or breath, but most time the word is used, it cannot refer to wind or breath. So too, the vast majority of uses of Sheol/Hades cannot refer to the grave.

While a grave is located at a specific site (Ex. 14:11), Sheol is never localized, because it is everywhere accessible at death no matter where the death takes place. No grave is necessary in order to go to Sheol.

While we can purchase or sell a grave (Gen. 23:4-20), Scripture never speaks of Sheol being purchased or sold.

While we can own a grave as personal property (Gen. 23:4-20), nowhere in scripture is Sheol owned by man.

While we can discriminate between graves and pick the "choicest site" (Gen. 23:6), nowhere in Scripture is a "choice" Sheol pitted against a "poor" Sheol.

While we can drop a dead body into a grave (Gen. 50:13), no one can drop anyone into Sheol.

While we can erect a monument over a grave (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never spoken of as having monuments.

While we can, with ease, open or close a grave (2 Kings 23:16), Sheol is never opened or closed by man.

While we can touch a grave (Num. 19:18), no one is ever said in Scripture to touch Sheol.

While touching a grave brings ceremonial defilement (Num. 19:16), the Scriptures never speak of anyone being defiled by Sheol.

More in the link.

Hades: The conscious realm of the dead!
 
ecofarm said:
I believe (via Christianity) it morphed into an incineration - total annihilation - of evil influence in the world, as promised by Jesus and to be enforced someday by God. That was then morphed into a place where a red dude pokes people forever.

Personally, I believe that eternal damnation/torture without hope is disgusting to God. If God is ok with that, then why go through all the trouble of providing salvation in the first place.
Click to expand...

I tend to look at it like this: If God made me the way I am, then why should I spend my time and emotional energy feeling bad about it? It's like saying that you love your child, only if he meets your personal standards and approval, but the funny thing is, since he came from you, then his characteristics are within your own make-up. If we are made in the image of God, then we are reflections, and not only of the "good" part. I think humans greatly misunderstand just what God is, because it's not within our capability to do so.
 
Logicman said:
20 reasons why sheol is not necessarily the grave:

Even if the word sheol did refer to a literal grave so what! The word "spirit" sometimes refers to literal wind or breath, but most time the word is used, it cannot refer to wind or breath. So too, the vast majority of uses of Sheol/Hades cannot refer to the grave.

While a grave is located at a specific site (Ex. 14:11), Sheol is never localized, because it is everywhere accessible at death no matter where the death takes place. No grave is necessary in order to go to Sheol.

While we can purchase or sell a grave (Gen. 23:4-20), Scripture never speaks of Sheol being purchased or sold.

While we can own a grave as personal property (Gen. 23:4-20), nowhere in scripture is Sheol owned by man.

While we can discriminate between graves and pick the "choicest site" (Gen. 23:6), nowhere in Scripture is a "choice" Sheol pitted against a "poor" Sheol.

While we can drop a dead body into a grave (Gen. 50:13), no one can drop anyone into Sheol.

While we can erect a monument over a grave (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never spoken of as having monuments.

While we can, with ease, open or close a grave (2 Kings 23:16), Sheol is never opened or closed by man.

While we can touch a grave (Num. 19:18), no one is ever said in Scripture to touch Sheol.

While touching a grave brings ceremonial defilement (Num. 19:16), the Scriptures never speak of anyone being defiled by Sheol.

More in the link.

Hades: The conscious realm of the dead!
Click to expand...

I don't know anyone who thinks Sheol is a literal grave, a location, for an individual body. It's where people "go" when they die.
 
lizzie said:
I tend to look at it like this: If God made me the way I am, then why should I spend my time and emotional energy feeling bad about it? It's like saying that you love your child, only if he meets your personal standards and approval, but the funny thing is, since he came from you, then his characteristics are within your own make-up. If we are made in the image of God, then we are reflections, and not only of the "good" part. I think humans greatly misunderstand just what God is, because it's not within our capability to do so.
Click to expand...

I conceptualize God as the collective sub/conscious will of all entities. I don't believe in a deity, but I do believe in a higher (order of) power beyond our perception and control.
 
ecofarm said:
I conceptualize God as the collective sub/conscious will of all entities. I don't believe in a deity, but I do believe in a higher (order of) power beyond our perception and control.
Click to expand...

Interesting take on it. I tend to think of it more as a combination of the will and the mind, or the spirit which animates our actions. I view it as being akin to a source of energy.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Well, this is odd. What are we supposed to infer from this? Suppose bacteria have souls. What you say would still be true, and the souls would simply divorce from the bacterium upon death.
Click to expand...

What exactly would the soul of a bacteria entail? Human souls are continuation of our personality that results from our complex brains. Bacteria have no nervous system whatsoever. They don't have a mind or anything beyond their physical structure.

The very earliest afterlife beliefs for which we have sufficient detail are not comforting at all. The Canaanite/Semitic concept was that, upon death, one would go into Sheol, where the larvae would simply devour you, upon which, oblivion would ensue. The experience was horrifying and painful, exactly as if you died by being eaten by maggots. Now, if the point was to be comforting, why in the world would someone invent that belief?
Click to expand...

The fact that said beliefs were replaced by a much friendlier afterlife only proves my point.
 
ecofarm said:
My understanding of Sheol is not anything terrible or painful.

I will not disappear into oblivion when I die. My influence in the world will remain, in minor and even unknown ways. My afterlife, my soul or spirit, is my influence. The afterlife is not about getting stuff for oneself, it's about existing spiritually.
Click to expand...

If that works for you, you are already spiritually rich.

opendebate said:
Awesome. A straight, I'm just going to stare into the abyss and accept it for what it is, response. It is awful, period.
Click to expand...

The great equalizer.
 
specklebang said:
If that works for you, you are already spiritually rich.
Click to expand...

I do not fear death, or believe it to be horrible, even though I've no belief in consciousness after death. We're here for a short time but our soul/spirit lives forever. Our soul/spirit (influence) will live in generations to come and, in some way, we will be in the future. As Jesus promised, we will live (spiritually) to see the end of suffering.
 
ashurbanipal said:
There aren't any footnotes to the Tanakh. There are medieval and ancient commentaries.

Why do you think this?
Click to expand...

]There aren't any footnotes to the Tanakh. There are medieval and ancient commentaries.

•••These were Rabbinical commentaries that were in the edition that I got from a Conservative Jewish Synagogue. I didn't like read the scroll or anything. It didn't seem agenda driven, just explanation and amplification to expand the literal English translation. I'm unfamiliar with the term "tanakh".

Why do you think this?
•••Just logic. I could be wrong. Anything is possible. Death, and the accompanying rotting of the body appear to be final. So, that's the opinion I ride with. I'm also a pretty nice guy, good deed and charity oriented, so in case I'm wrong, I'll (hopefully) be able to debate my way out of eternal damnation. You can never be too prepared.

Why do you think not?
 
One of the good things about being a Christian is that if you really are? You do not fear death!;)
 
ecofarm said:
I don't know anyone who thinks Sheol is a literal grave, a location, for an individual body. It's where people "go" when they die.
Click to expand...

Here's an explanation:

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.”
The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.”

The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41).
It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.

But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.
Click to expand...
Read more: What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?



All will face what we know as physical death. For Christians, this death is likened to sleep, for we believe that we will all rise up again to face the Last Judgment. Death is already defeated in the Resurrection. Jesus already conquered death!



1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory


1 Corinthians 15:55-56
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Click to expand...


As described from those verses, we will all rise up - believers and non-believers - as immortals, to face the judgment of God. Thus, it's been described how it would feel like PHYSICALLY to be in hell, or eternal damnation.


Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:25
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.[a] Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,


Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom