• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Entire, Eternal Discussion/Question Will Never Be Closed

I do not fear death, or believe it to be horrible, even though I've no belief in consciousness after death. We're here for a short time but our soul/spirit lives forever. Our soul/spirit (influence) will live in generations to come and, in some way, we will be in the future. As Jesus promised, we will live (spiritually) to see the end of suffering.


If there is no more consciousness after physical death - how can the spirit know about the end of suffering?
Or what suffering is?

If there is no more consciousness - nothing will register.

The spirit may look and watch but it wouldn't mean anything to him. It'll be like my cat watching the tv screen, or a toddler watching the evening news.
 
Last edited:
rathi said:
What exactly would the soul of a bacteria entail? Human souls are continuation of our personality that results from our complex brains.

Why do you think souls result from complex brains?

Bacteria souls would entail, presumably, a continuance of whatever it is like to be a bacterium.

rathi said:
Bacteria have no nervous system whatsoever.

So what?

rathi said:
They don't have a mind or anything beyond their physical structure.

How do you know? You seem to be begging the question. Of course, if bacteria are nothing over and above their physical structure, then they don't have souls. But if the question is whether or not bacteria have souls, or might have souls, we cannot assume they do not.

rathi said:
The fact that said beliefs were replaced by a much friendlier afterlife only proves my point.

Well, some afterlife beliefs are friendly, but many are not. Even the Christian afterlife belief, until very recently, wasn't. Hindu, Buddhist, and Taoist afterlife beliefs are not pleasant--theoretically, one is reincarnated, but for most people, all memories are utterly destroyed, so it's the equivalent of annihilation.

The point, again, is that if afterlife beliefs are merely invented to be comforting, why wouldn't we invent a belief that everyone goes to the Big Rock Candy Mountain or something?
 
specklebang said:
These were Rabbinical commentaries that were in the edition that I got from a Conservative Jewish Synagogue. I didn't like read the scroll or anything. It didn't seem agenda driven, just explanation and amplification to expand the literal English translation. I'm unfamiliar with the term "tanakh".

"Tanakh" is a notariqon (sort of like an anagram) for Torah (the law), Neviim (the prophets), and Kethuvim (the writings). What we call the "Old Testament" is the Tanakh. The term "Old Testament" is a mildly insulting term for Jews, since it inherently assumes their holy scriptures are merely a prologue for Christianity. It's fallen into such standard usage that some haven't thought about it, but I prefer to respect Judaism as it is.

Anyway...ah. Unless you read Hebrew, you haven't read the Tanakh. There's too much going on with biblical Hebrew that cannot be captured efficiently in English.

specklebang said:
Just logic. I could be wrong. Anything is possible. Death, and the accompanying rotting of the body appear to be final. So, that's the opinion I ride with. I'm also a pretty nice guy, good deed and charity oriented, so in case I'm wrong, I'll (hopefully) be able to debate my way out of eternal damnation. You can never be too prepared.

Well, surely you are aware of instances where appearance doesn't match reality. If I weren't habituated to the idea, for instance, I wouldn't have any cause to believe other people have minds. The only appearance is behavior, and I can imagine behavior without anything behind it.

specklebang said:
Why do you think not?

I am not certain there is an afterlife, but I am fairly sure death is not the end of consciousness. It may be, for most people, the end or near-end of memory. I came to these conclusions due to the convergence of multiple lines of argument and evidence.

First, I began to investigate neuroscience. Long ago, when I was an undergrad in my intro to philosophy class, the professor was explaining ontological materialism. I recall thinking that in order for us to be certain that materialism is true, some scientist somewhere has to have put together a nuts-and-bolts account of how we go from neural activity and physiology to phenomenology and intention. But she was so persuasive, I assumed that someone must have done so, and the subject was simply so technical there's no way I could understand it. So, I bought it, and all that it entails (including that there is no afterlife), and was quite content for a while.

But that point (that someone would need to have the correct account of how the brain produces the mind) stuck with me subliminally, and the more I studied, the more I began to realize its importance. I left school and got into business, though in my spare time, I began studying all the neuroscience I could get my hands on. I bought textbooks and studied just as if I were taking classes, and then started reading journal articles. After a decade, I came to realize that in fact not only does no one have such an account, no one has any clue how to even begin making one. I then came to two related realizations.

First, I understood that there's nothing we could know about the brain that would give us a complete explanation for the mind. This is particularly damning to materialism, since the whole point of materialism is that matter is supposed to explain all non-physical properties.

Second, I understood that there aren't any good positive arguments for materialism. The main arguments are all arguments against some other position, and all of those arguments are fairly weak. It was at that moment that I finally ceased being a materialist. I decided that it would behoove me to try to figure out what kind of universe we actually live in.

I began to think about the notion of scientific law. It occurred to me that what we normally think of as laws are really just approximations or idealizations of observed phenomena. Classical sources distinguished two motive forces--physis and telos. In the modern period, physis is the kind of motive force that planets are supposed to have as they orbit the sun. Its major distinguishing feature is that it doesn't deviate from the mathematics that describes it. Telos, on the other hand, is distinguishable because it does deviate from any mathematics that purports to describe it. Physis is a feature of non-conscious objects. Telos is a feature of conscious objects. As I considered these points, I came to realize that the universe resembles much more closely an object with telos than one with physis. This is especially the case when we realize that you simply cannot get telos out of physis. Since telos exists (conscious beings exist), this presents a further connundrum.

I began to survey forgotten or marginalized ideas, because the epistemic picture that emerged from these considerations is that somewhere in western culture, we've failed to account for everything. We've cut off something real because we couldn't conceive of how it fit with other ideas that, for whatever reasons, stood out to us as bright and shiny. Our concepts simply do not correspond with the whole of reality. Thus stated, the point is almost obvious, but this has a very significant import: our most basic beliefs are probably not right. I think we have concepts that almost necessarily lead us to be materialists, and those concepts are just incorrect.

The upshot of these meditations led me to a few distinct beliefs:

1) The world is an illusion at least in the sense that it doesn't resemble our impressions of it.

2) At least some aspects of mind are likely fundamental, and thus not explainable or reducible in other terms.

3) If we want to understand the world as it really is, it's important to admit all evidence gathered according to reasonable epistemic standards, even if it seems contradictory. The universe may not conform to the laws of logic, and probably does not.

I see many of the current puzzles in physics as evidence for the first. I've taken graduate level courses in quantum mechanics, relativity, and astrophysics, which did nothing to alleviate this concern. The world is an illusion of some kind, and the evidence that it is an illusion is both apparent and plentiful to those who look.

The inexplicability of phenomenal experience, intention, memory, emotion, and other such recommend mind as in some way fundamental.

Among the evidence that should be considered is evidence from parapsychology. The relevant questions are not whether, if we admit this evidence, it contradicts everything else we've come to believe. The only relevant question is whether it was gathered according to the best epistemic standards. One body of evidence in particular that I think was gathered according to such evidence, and bears on the question of an afterlife, is the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson on reincarnation. Stevenson was a well-respected psychologist who didn't put up with nonsense. He worked at one of the best universities in America. He applied rigorous standards to the data gathered and found some convincing cases of reincarnation.

This is important because, if it's possible for a human being to be reincarnated, that means it's possible for memory and consciousness to survive whatever happens after death. It completes a kind of conceptual circle. Evidence from mediums, for example, can always be given alternate explanations that don't entail the survival of consciousness. But the return to life in another form of something previously taken to be dead is definitive. If that is something that actually happens, then death cannot be the end. Of course, I grant that despite all this, I could simply be wrong. Stevenson might have screwed up or lied, or I might have just missed something.

There's lots more to be said about this topic, but that at least sketches some of my thoughts on the matter.
 
Last edited:
If there is no more consciousness after physical death - how can the spirit know about the end of suffering?

One doesn't "know" about it. Ones spirit is there.

Or what suffering is?

In the future, emotions will be different?

If there is no more consciousness - nothing will register.

Register where?

The spirit may look and watch but it wouldn't mean anything to him. It'll be like my cat watching the tv screen, or a toddler watching the evening news.

Who cares about watching anything? There's no watching. No consciousness. It's about walking with the Spirit so that ones influence never dies and we live forever with all that is good, with God.
 
Here's an explanation:


Read more: What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?



All will face what we know as physical death. For Christians, this death is likened to sleep, for we believe that we will all rise up again to face the Last Judgment. Death is already defeated in the Resurrection. Jesus already conquered death!





As described from those verses, we will all rise up - believers and non-believers - as immortals, to face the judgment of God. Thus, it's been described how it would feel like PHYSICALLY to be in hell, or eternal damnation.


I'm familiar with all of that, having studied Witness material. Thanks for refreshing my memory of the references.
 
Why do you think souls result from complex brains?

Because souls are based on personality, which requires a complex brain.

Bacteria souls would entail, presumably, a continuance of whatever it is like to be a bacterium.

That is a meaningless statement. If you want to claim that bacteria have a soul distinct from its body, you have to provide useful description of said soul.

How do you know? You seem to be begging the question. Of course, if bacteria are nothing over and above their physical structure, then they don't have souls. But if the question is whether or not bacteria have souls, or might have souls, we cannot assume they do not.

Bacteria don't have a nervous system and thus its physically impossible for them to have a mind.


Well, some afterlife beliefs are friendly, but many are not. Even the Christian afterlife belief, until very recently, wasn't. Hindu, Buddhist, and Taoist afterlife beliefs are not pleasant--theoretically, one is reincarnated, but for most people, all memories are utterly destroyed, so it's the equivalent of annihilation.

Egyptian, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Viking and Greek afterlife all have at least some people going to a very pleasant spot when they die. Reincarnation isn't considered to be annihilation from a cultural and emotional perspective.

The point, again, is that if afterlife beliefs are merely invented to be comforting, why wouldn't we invent a belief that everyone goes to the Big Rock Candy Mountain or something?

People also like the concept of the guilty being punished, especially for people who escape justice on earth. That is why both good and bad outcomes based on moral actions are the standard.
 
rathi said:
Because souls are based on personality, which requires a complex brain.

Aren't personalities based on souls? You're again begging the question--if there are souls, personalities may not require complex brains.

rathi said:
That is a meaningless statement. If you want to claim that bacteria have a soul distinct from its body, you have to provide useful description of said soul.

Why is this meaningless? I'm not sure what you mean by "useful description" but going on the assumption you mean something like a description that specifies a unified concept, I can't provide a useful description of what it's like to be you. But if human beings have souls, you presumably have one. I can't provide a useful description of what it's like to be me, for that matter. But this isn't because there isn't such a concept. As Wittgenstein observed, language is necessarily public. Language is also nearly identical with thought, which leads us inexorably to think in publicly available terms. It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to see why this would lead us to have materialist beliefs, since material things are usually identified with the realm of the publicly available. But this is a limitation of our ability to describe, and what we can describe may not be all that exists. Insistence otherwise is simply a failure to recognize this problem, and tantamount to deciding a priori what reality must be like.

rathi said:
Bacteria don't have a nervous system and thus its physically impossible for them to have a mind.

Why is that impossible? Are you an identity theorist?

rathi said:
Egyptian, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Viking and Greek afterlife all have at least some people going to a very pleasant spot when they die.

I disagree about Egyptian and Greek afterlife beliefs; Jewish afterlife beliefs aren't certain. Egyptian and Greek beliefs entail that a very, very few people end up anywhere pleasant. Furthermore, it's not possible for most people to get there. In the Old Kingdom, for instance, only the Pharoah got to abide with Ra in the Duant. The servants who were killed with him only made it as far as Amenti, where their Ba were destroyed.

Most people in the Greek afterlife went to Tartaros, where, after passing the Styx and Lethe, they lost their Thumos and their Psyche was stripped of memory. They would become automatons.

rathi said:
Reincarnation isn't considered to be annihilation from a cultural and emotional perspective.

You'll have to clarify that remark before I can respond. "Cultural and emotional perspective"?

rathi said:
People also like the concept of the guilty being punished, especially for people who escape justice on earth. That is why both good and bad outcomes based on moral actions are the standard.

Well, OK, but that's a modification of your previous thesis. Furthermore, the earliest beliefs have most people ending up in an unpleasant place, often like annihilation. If this were why afterlife beliefs aren't entirely pleasant, it seems that there would be a division that reflects human standards of conduct.
 
Last edited:
Well, the sugar-free is quite good.
I didn't hear that, Liz.

The reason I didn't hear it is because you never said it.
 
"Tanakh" is a notariqon (sort of like an anagram) for Torah (the law), Neviim (the prophets), and Kethuvim (the writings). What we call the "Old Testament" is the Tanakh. The term "Old Testament" is a mildly insulting term for Jews, since it inherently assumes their holy scriptures are merely a prologue for Christianity. It's fallen into such standard usage that some haven't thought about it, but I prefer to respect Judaism as it is.

Anyway...ah. Unless you read Hebrew, you haven't read the Tanakh. There's too much going on with biblical Hebrew that cannot be captured efficiently in English.



Well, surely you are aware of instances where appearance doesn't match reality. If I weren't habituated to the idea, for instance, I wouldn't have any cause to believe other people have minds. The only appearance is behavior, and I can imagine behavior without anything behind it.



I am not certain there is an afterlife, but I am fairly sure death is not the end of consciousness. It may be, for most people, the end or near-end of memory. I came to these conclusions due to the convergence of multiple lines of argument and evidence.

First, I began to investigate neuroscience. Long ago, when I was an undergrad in my intro to philosophy class, the professor was explaining ontological materialism. I recall thinking that in order for us to be certain that materialism is true, some scientist somewhere has to have put together a nuts-and-bolts account of how we go from neural activity and physiology to phenomenology and intention. But she was so persuasive, I assumed that someone must have done so, and the subject was simply so technical there's no way I could understand it. So, I bought it, and all that it entails (including that there is no afterlife), and was quite content for a while.

But that point (that someone would need to have the correct account of how the brain produces the mind) stuck with me subliminally, and the more I studied, the more I began to realize its importance. I left school and got into business, though in my spare time, I began studying all the neuroscience I could get my hands on. I bought textbooks and studied just as if I were taking classes, and then started reading journal articles. After a decade, I came to realize that in fact not only does no one have such an account, no one has any clue how to even begin making one. I then came to two related realizations.

First, I understood that there's nothing we could know about the brain that would give us a complete explanation for the mind. This is particularly damning to materialism, since the whole point of materialism is that matter is supposed to explain all non-physical properties.

Second, I understood that there aren't any good positive arguments for materialism. The main arguments are all arguments against some other position, and all of those arguments are fairly weak. It was at that moment that I finally ceased being a materialist. I decided that it would behoove me to try to figure out what kind of universe we actually live in.

I began to think about the notion of scientific law. It occurred to me that what we normally think of as laws are really just approximations or idealizations of observed phenomena. Classical sources distinguished two motive forces--physis and telos. In the modern period, physis is the kind of motive force that planets are supposed to have as they orbit the sun. Its major distinguishing feature is that it doesn't deviate from the mathematics that describes it. Telos, on the other hand, is distinguishable because it does deviate from any mathematics that purports to describe it. Physis is a feature of non-conscious objects. Telos is a feature of conscious objects. As I considered these points, I came to realize that the universe resembles much more closely an object with telos than one with physis. This is especially the case when we realize that you simply cannot get telos out of physis. Since telos exists (conscious beings exist), this presents a further connundrum.

I began to survey forgotten or marginalized ideas, because the epistemic picture that emerged from these considerations is that somewhere in western culture, we've failed to account for everything. We've cut off something real because we couldn't conceive of how it fit with other ideas that, for whatever reasons, stood out to us as bright and shiny. Our concepts simply do not correspond with the whole of reality. Thus stated, the point is almost obvious, but this has a very significant import: our most basic beliefs are probably not right. I think we have concepts that almost necessarily lead us to be materialists, and those concepts are just incorrect.

The upshot of these meditations led me to a few distinct beliefs:

1) The world is an illusion at least in the sense that it doesn't resemble our impressions of it.

2) At least some aspects of mind are likely fundamental, and thus not explainable or reducible in other terms.

3) If we want to understand the world as it really is, it's important to admit all evidence gathered according to reasonable epistemic standards, even if it seems contradictory. The universe may not conform to the laws of logic, and probably does not.

I see many of the current puzzles in physics as evidence for the first. I've taken graduate level courses in quantum mechanics, relativity, and astrophysics, which did nothing to alleviate this concern. The world is an illusion of some kind, and the evidence that it is an illusion is both apparent and plentiful to those who look.

The inexplicability of phenomenal experience, intention, memory, emotion, and other such recommend mind as in some way fundamental.

Among the evidence that should be considered is evidence from parapsychology. The relevant questions are not whether, if we admit this evidence, it contradicts everything else we've come to believe. The only relevant question is whether it was gathered according to the best epistemic standards. One body of evidence in particular that I think was gathered according to such evidence, and bears on the question of an afterlife, is the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson on reincarnation. Stevenson was a well-respected psychologist who didn't put up with nonsense. He worked at one of the best universities in America. He applied rigorous standards to the data gathered and found some convincing cases of reincarnation.

This is important because, if it's possible for a human being to be reincarnated, that means it's possible for memory and consciousness to survive whatever happens after death. It completes a kind of conceptual circle. Evidence from mediums, for example, can always be given alternate explanations that don't entail the survival of consciousness. But the return to life in another form of something previously taken to be dead is definitive. If that is something that actually happens, then death cannot be the end. Of course, I grant that despite all this, I could simply be wrong. Stevenson might have screwed up or lied, or I might have just missed something.

There's lots more to be said about this topic, but that at least sketches some of my thoughts on the matter.

This must be one of the most amazing responses to any question I have posed on this forum. I'll just say thanks for now and ponder the complexities later.
 
There's one who died and was resurrected - Jesus Christ. And he told us all about it. You can read about it in the New Testament.

You read it.
 
I have been to many places in my life so I can tell a little something about all of them. I can tell you nothing of a place I have never been and death is one of them ....so far.
 
We can close the question very simply by accepting that death is inevitable, living the life we have to the fullest, and not worrying about it anymore. Maybe when we stop thinking of life as a temporary stop in the way to something better, maybe we won't be so quick to wage war on each other.
 
One doesn't "know" about it. Ones spirit is there.
In the future, emotions will be different?
Register where?
Who cares about watching anything? There's no watching. No consciousness. It's about walking with the Spirit so that ones influence never dies and we live forever with all that is good, with God.

The definition of consciousness is being awake and aware of one's surroundings. I'm just saying, if there is no consciousness, how can we be aware of what we see (in this case, the end of suffering).

Without consciousness, will we even be aware of the fact that we were saved?
 
Aren't personalities based on souls? You're again begging the question--if there are souls, personalities may not require complex brains.

Every single entity with a personality also has a complex brain with no exceptions. If you disagree, provide a counterexample.

Why is this meaningless? I'm not sure what you mean by "useful description" but going on the assumption you mean something like a description that specifies a unified concept, I can't provide a useful description of what it's like to be you.

You know that I a human being, that I speak English, I live in California, I'm male and I like debating on the internet. That may be a very limited understanding of what it is to be me, but it is still a useful definition.

But if human beings have souls, you presumably have one. I can't provide a useful description of what it's like to be me, for that matter. But this isn't because there isn't such a concept. As Wittgenstein observed, language is necessarily public. Language is also nearly identical with thought, which leads us inexorably to think in publicly available terms. It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to see why this would lead us to have materialist beliefs, since material things are usually identified with the realm of the publicly available. But this is a limitation of our ability to describe, and what we can describe may not be all that exists. Insistence otherwise is simply a failure to recognize this problem, and tantamount to deciding a priori what reality must be like.

If souls are so beyond our ability to communicate using language, it would be impossible for us to be discussing them on a debate forum.

Why is that impossible? Are you an identity theorist?

Bacteria are extremely simple and well understood organisms. There is no chemical reaction within their bodies that can even come close to being a mind.

I disagree about Egyptian and Greek afterlife beliefs; Jewish afterlife beliefs aren't certain. Egyptian and Greek beliefs entail that a very, very few people end up anywhere pleasant. Furthermore, it's not possible for most people to get there. In the Old Kingdom, for instance, only the Pharoah got to abide with Ra in the Duant. The servants who were killed with him only made it as far as Amenti, where their Ba were destroyed.

Most people in the Greek afterlife went to Tartaros, where, after passing the Styx and Lethe, they lost their Thumos and their Psyche was stripped of memory. They would become automatons.

Greek and Egyptian believes both evolved over time, with increasingly broad criteria for getting into the good afterlife.

You'll have to clarify that remark before I can respond. "Cultural and emotional perspective"?

People who believe in reincarnation consider reincarnation a continuity of one's existence and not oblivion, even if their memories are lost. I would question the logic of such a claim, but it provides the emotional escape for the believer from mortality nonetheless.

Well, OK, but that's a modification of your previous thesis. Furthermore, the earliest beliefs have most people ending up in an unpleasant place, often like annihilation. If this were why afterlife beliefs aren't entirely pleasant, it seems that there would be a division that reflects human standards of conduct.

Its hardly a modification. My point is that the belief in an afterlife is primarily based on satisfying our emotional wants. Having a unpleasant afterlife for those who have committed actions deemed evil certainly fits the claim.
 
Observation in nature tells us exactly what death is: the moment a complex system stops working. The fusion reaction in a sun peters out, the complex electrical patterns in computer memory disperse and the self sustaining chemical reaction known as life ceases to continue. We have no problem accepting that for machines or even simpler lifeforms. Nobody questions that bacteria simply become unable to continue the chemical cycles needed to maintain their existence and die.

However, when it comes to humans we have to throw out all the evidence. We might operate on the exactly the same principles as those bacteria, but we pretend we are special snowflakes who don't really die because we are afraid of our own mortality. Oblivion makes us very uncomfortable, so we invent whatever rationalizations are needed to soothe our fears.

There was the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Give me five bees for a quarter, you'd say.

Now where were we? Oh yeah: the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
 
We can close the question very simply by accepting that death is inevitable, living the life we have to the fullest, and not worrying about it anymore. Maybe when we stop thinking of life as a temporary stop in the way to something better, maybe we won't be so quick to wage war on each other.

That's a fine sentiment, Pasch, but what if a flying spaghetti monster told you to do it?
 
Moderator's Warning:
Moved to Philosophy.
 
All the Daoist and Buddhist practices I've studied and immersed myself in over the years have left me with the distinct impression that awareness will always continue, but consciousness and more specifically ego-based consciousness will not. Awareness seems to be intrinsic to everything in the universe as the one ever-present constant. When we die we just return to what we already are now, minus the ego.

Ultimately though, I'm content to just continue loving the mystery itself. I'll find out anyway at the end of the road.
 
Jesus promised, as God to Abraham.

I know that....but I'm asking, if there is no consciousness after death - which means you have no awareness - how will you know and understand the fact that you were among the saved?

Would we be like floating dust in space? Oblivious to anything, and everything around us?


There is consciousness after death. And it's clearly stated in the Bible.



Luke 16

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”


--------------
Rev 6:9-11
"I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God ... and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood ... And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer"
 
rathi said:
Every single entity with a personality also has a complex brain with no exceptions. If you disagree, provide a counterexample.

I could respond a couple of different ways, and I think it's worth making both points.

First, surely brains aren't necessary. There is likely to be life on other planets, and at least somewhere in the vast universe, there are creatures with personalities. But it would be extrordinary if they also have brains. They may (or may not) have something functionally equivalent to brains, but so what? Brains don't do anything that's fundamentally special. The assertion that only creatures with brains have personalities is merely a judgment.

Second, unless you define personality in terms of behavior, it's not really certain that creatures with brains have personalities. So, if you can show that it's necessary that they do (i.e. that in all possible worlds, having a brain is identical with having a personality) then I'll meet your challenge. If you can't, however, you're forced to admit that you're simply making a judgment, and an arbitrary one, at that. Who knows whether trees or rocks or bacteria or what-have-you have some awareness of some kind? What tells us about that is behavior, but we're equally aware that behavior doesn't always match up to consciousness.

rathi said:
You know that I a human being, that I speak English, I live in California, I'm male and I like debating on the internet. That may be a very limited understanding of what it is to be me, but it is still a useful definition.

So, let's see: to make a useful description, what I need to do is specify your species, language, location, gender, and current activity? I can do all those things for bacteria except for language, and I'm not sure why that should be on the list anyway. My dogs have plenty of personality and they speak no language. Or, if they do, it's just a grammar-less conveyance of very basic information. Bacteria do the same things among themselves, releasing chemicals which inform others about nutrient gradients and such.

rathi said:
If souls are so beyond our ability to communicate using language, it would be impossible for us to be discussing them on a debate forum.

I didn't say "communicate," I said "describe." There's a pretty big difference in this case. More importantly, this seems to miss the point, which is that use of language may tend to delude us if we're not on our guard. So long as we insist on rigorous descriptions, we are surreptitiously fixing our ontology. No one should reasonably want our language to set our ontology.

rathi said:
Bacteria are extremely simple and well understood organisms. There is no chemical reaction within their bodies that can even come close to being a mind.

1) How do you know?

2) You're begging the question yet again. If souls exist, they aren't chemical reactions and may not need to even be accompanied by chemical reactions.

rathi said:
Greek and Egyptian believes both evolved over time, with increasingly broad criteria for getting into the good afterlife.

Sure, I agree. But then why, if afterlife beliefs are invented to be comforting, were the earliest afterlife beliefs anything but comforting? Those are the closest we have to the point of "invention." If your thesis is correct, we'd expect those afterlife beliefs to be comforting.

rathi said:
People who believe in reincarnation consider reincarnation a continuity of one's existence and not oblivion, even if their memories are lost. I would question the logic of such a claim, but it provides the emotional escape for the believer from mortality nonetheless.

This is questionable. Some do, but some do not. Madhava, for example, says some stuff that sounds very much like he thinks the afterlife involves annihilation for most people. He's one of the three great philosophers and prophets of Vedanta, so his views aren't fringe views by any means.

rathi said:
Its hardly a modification. My point is that the belief in an afterlife is primarily based on satisfying our emotional wants. Having a unpleasant afterlife for those who have committed actions deemed evil certainly fits the claim.

The problem I was pointing out is that for the earliest afterlife beliefs (even later iterations of them that made it easier to achieve a good afterlife), most of the people considered to be good in this life, by normal human standards, also receive punishment and and face annihilation. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any correlation at all between any usual standard of good and evil and final destination in the afterlife. Greek beliefs were particularly bad about this--it was a matter of luck whether you joined the Olympians or went to Tartaros.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom