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Are people rational?

Slartibartfast

Slartibartfast

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One of the common assumptions about human behavior I see all the time here is that people are rational and act rationally.

I am not so sure this is true. Only half of our conscious mind, for example is devoted to things like logic and math. Then there is the right side and in addition to that, you have other parts of the brain controlling instincts, emotions, etc.

Further evidence to cause my doubt is that consistently on this website, predictions of politics, economic activity, and other mass human behavior are just plain dead wrong. People as of yet have been unable to consistently apply any philosophy to predict how people behave. This, I think, is why all societies end up being mixed models (some socialism, some capitalism, some of this and some of that) because all philosophies are inadequate and fundamentally so. The main flaw in my opinion is that they rely on conscious choice and free will way too much.

Thirdly, people do stupid irrational **** all the time. Look at the Darwin awards for example. People are consistently doing stuff that there is no good reason to do, deliberately. Women who gravitate towards abusive relationships are another good example. There is no reason to do that.

My view is that people are simply a mix of drives with some logic at the surface which may or may not do any good. Human will power and choice is also limited by this. Relying on people to do the right thing will never work as a result.

So, what are your thoughts and if you agree, what's a better way to understand society and its needs?
 
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The vast majority of humanity are easily programmable automatons who express views simply because other people do.

In general, human history has involved a few independent thinkers and vast hoards of screaming masses chasing them with pitchforks and torches.
 
We are rational, but we also have a strong emotional component to our personalities, which is why you see irrational behaviors from normally rational individuals. It depends on how much they are dictated by their emotions, and to what degree they are willing to go, in order to make the world fit their ideas of "goodness". There are certain things which cannot be controlled, and the sooner you realize that, the better off (and more mentally stable) you will be, imo.
 
tacomancer said:
One of the common assumptions about human behavior I see all the time here is that people are rational and act rationally.

I am not so sure this is true. Only half of our conscious mind, for example is devoted to things like logic and math. Then there is the right side and in addition to that, you have other parts of the brain controlling instincts, emotions, etc.

Further evidence to cause my doubt is that consistently on this website, predictions of politics, economic activity, and other mass human behavior are just plain dead wrong. People as of yet have been unable to consistently apply any philosophy to predict how people behave. This, I think, is why all societies end up being mixed models (some socialism, some capitalism, some of this and some of that) because all philosophies are inadequate and fundamentally so. The main flaw in my opinion is that they rely on conscious choice and free will way too much.

Thirdly, people do stupid irrational **** all the time. Look at the Darwin awards for example. People are consistently doing stuff that there is no good reason to do, deliberately. Women who gravitate towards abusive relationships are another good example. There is no reason to do that.

My view is that people are simply a mix of drives with some logic at the surface which may or may not do any good. Human will power and choice is also limited by this. Relying on people to do the right thing will never work as a result.

So, what are your thoughts and if you agree, what's a better way to understand society and its needs?
Click to expand...

People are crazy. ;)

 
lizzie said:
We are rational, but we also have a strong emotional component to our personalities, which is why you see irrational behaviors from normally rational individuals. It depends on how much they are dictated by their emotions, and to what degree they are willing to go, in order to make the world fit their ideas of "goodness". There are certain things which cannot be controlled, and the sooner you realize that, the better off (and more mentally stable) you will be, imo.
Click to expand...

So, we are not rational then.
 
tacomancer said:
So, we are not rational then.
Click to expand...

We are both. Some people realize what is rational, but it is in conflict with our own personal wishes, so we perform a juggling act in order to live a somewhat tolerable life.
 
Gardener said:
The vast majority of humanity are easily programmable automatons who express views simply because other people do.

In general, human history has involved a few independent thinkers and vast hoards of screaming masses chasing them with pitchforks and torches.
Click to expand...

I cannot disagree. I am in a situation where I am dealing with a small problem child that has been in a bad environment her whole life. In two weeks, she is behaving.

Simple matter of positive and negative feedback.
 
lizzie said:
We are both. Some people realize what is rational, but it is in conflict with our own personal wishes, so we perform a juggling act in order to live a somewhat tolerable life.
Click to expand...

End result though...
 
Are people rational? No, clearly not. Being rational takes effort and most people are lazy. Should people be rational? Absolutely and without question but society doesn't encourage it and without encouragement and education, it's not something that comes naturally to most people.

That said, I want the world to develop the expectation of rationality, where everyone is held to that standard whether they want to be or not but we're not there yet.
 
tacomancer said:
End result though...
Click to expand...

The end result is a mix. If we had no emotions to override our rational minds, then we could be considered rational. Since that is usually not the case, we are a mixed bag. That's not necessarily a bad thing, for to be purely rational would result in a cold and unforgiving individual.
 
lizzie said:
The end result is a mix. If we had no emotions to override our rational minds, then we could be considered rational. Since that is usually not the case, we are a mixed bag. That's not necessarily a bad thing, for to be purely rational would result in a cold and unforgiving individual.
Click to expand...
I think we agree. But applying its lesson in terms of politics, our rationality is of no use, which is what I am getting at.

In other words, we need more study, our current political models (liberalism, conservativism, libertarianism, etc) all pretty much suck and are useless.
 
tacomancer said:
I think we agree. But applying its lesson in terms of politics, our rationality is of no use, which is what I am getting at.

In other words, we need more study, our current political models (liberalism, conservativism, libertarianism, etc) all pretty much suck and are useless.
Click to expand...

Well, at our current state of human development, it's probably about the best we can hope for. The other options would probably be worse (totalitarianism on one end of the spectrum, and anarchy on the other).
 
tacomancer said:
One of the common assumptions about human behavior I see all the time here is that people are rational and act rationally.

I am not so sure this is true. Only half of our conscious mind, for example is devoted to things like logic and math. Then there is the right side and in addition to that, you have other parts of the brain controlling instincts, emotions, etc.

Further evidence to cause my doubt is that consistently on this website, predictions of politics, economic activity, and other mass human behavior are just plain dead wrong. People as of yet have been unable to consistently apply any philosophy to predict how people behave. This, I think, is why all societies end up being mixed models (some socialism, some capitalism, some of this and some of that) because all philosophies are inadequate and fundamentally so. The main flaw in my opinion is that they rely on conscious choice and free will way too much.

Thirdly, people do stupid irrational **** all the time. Look at the Darwin awards for example. People are consistently doing stuff that there is no good reason to do, deliberately. Women who gravitate towards abusive relationships are another good example. There is no reason to do that.

My view is that people are simply a mix of drives with some logic at the surface which may or may not do any good. Human will power and choice is also limited by this. Relying on people to do the right thing will never work as a result.

So, what are your thoughts and if you agree, what's a better way to understand society and its needs?
Click to expand...

Generally speaking people tend to act emotionally and rationalize after the fact. The classic example of that in a format such as this is when we see a dozen threads on the same subject or a dozen responses to a post before there is a clarification of facts and circumstances. People see the issue, are impacted emotionally, react by posting and then, farther down the thread, start rationalizing their initial post.
 
Lutherf said:
Generally speaking people tend to act emotionally and rationalize after the fact. The classic example of that in a format such as this is when we see a dozen threads on the same subject or a dozen responses to a post before there is a clarification of facts and circumstances. People see the issue, are impacted emotionally, react by posting and then, farther down the thread, start rationalizing their initial post.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.

But I also think people will sometimes react rationally at first and then "emotionalize" after the fact.

As an example, think of a guy sitting down on payday and saying, "Hmmm... I really should make a larger than minimum payment to my credit card, but I really want buy that new fishing reel I saw in the Cabela's catalog".

And he does the rational thing and makes a much larger than minimum payment.

Then runs out two weeks later and buys the fishing reel on credit.

(No, of course that isn't a personal example :wink2:)

And of course people will also make rational decisions and stick with them.

And of course people will make emotional decisions and live with them.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying that I don't think we can stick people, in general, into either box and have any confidence that we've settled the matter (which is not to imply that I think you're calling the matter settled).
 
lizzie said:
Well, at our current state of human development, it's probably about the best we can hope for. The other options would probably be worse (totalitarianism on one end of the spectrum, and anarchy on the other).
Click to expand...

I doubt we will develop much without a major biological or technological paradigm shift.

We are very limited by our biology in my opinion.
 
People are more motivated by emotion than logic.

The human brain is easily confused and a person revert to the most primitive emotions if not knowing what is going on or in an unfamiliar situation. People prefer to operate in their comfort zone.
 
tacomancer said:
One of the common assumptions about human behavior I see all the time here is that people are rational and act rationally.

I am not so sure this is true. Only half of our conscious mind, for example is devoted to things like logic and math. Then there is the right side and in addition to that, you have other parts of the brain controlling instincts, emotions, etc.

Further evidence to cause my doubt is that consistently on this website, predictions of politics, economic activity, and other mass human behavior are just plain dead wrong. People as of yet have been unable to consistently apply any philosophy to predict how people behave. This, I think, is why all societies end up being mixed models (some socialism, some capitalism, some of this and some of that) because all philosophies are inadequate and fundamentally so. The main flaw in my opinion is that they rely on conscious choice and free will way too much.

Thirdly, people do stupid irrational **** all the time. Look at the Darwin awards for example. People are consistently doing stuff that there is no good reason to do, deliberately. Women who gravitate towards abusive relationships are another good example. There is no reason to do that.

My view is that people are simply a mix of drives with some logic at the surface which may or may not do any good. Human will power and choice is also limited by this. Relying on people to do the right thing will never work as a result.

So, what are your thoughts and if you agree, what's a better way to understand society and its needs?
Click to expand...

Individually humans are very rational beings. In group settings, however, we are driven more by emotion. That's why we can come up with some of the most brilliant science, but crowds behave like monkeys.
 
tacomancer said:
I doubt we will develop much without a major biological or technological paradigm shift.

We are very limited by our biology in my opinion.
Click to expand...

i don't think that is a very rational prediction
 
Most of the remarks through the thread seem to point to the belief that we are a mixed bag... Sometimes rational and sometimes irrational...

On the individual level this can be true but for vast majority of people they would be seen as irrational in the eyes of pschology and academia.. At least by the definitions of rationality. Such definitions as basing beliefs on evidence and our actions being appropriate to the goals we set. This can apply to all area's of life and for the most part studies have shown an easy corruptibility to the human rationalism in its ability to base its belief on evidence... Even the most cold logical thinkers can easily fall foul of completely irrational behaviour. To this extent with unpredictability we can be said to be nothing more than erratically irrational driven by personal wants and needs but occasionally glimpsing rationality long enough to steer us in a general direction. Though much of these rational decisions will also be hugely influenced by the likely irrational behaviour of others... Truly a minefield of possible absurdity.
 
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