Why is killing such a big deal?

Howdy,

OK, so why is killing such a big deal?
Is it because of the Commandments? In this case, why is killing prioritized as a taboo before all other commandments?
Is it because people fear death themselves?

Look around you - creatures die in great quantities at all times. Take a walk in the forest. Chances are you just killed hundreds of ants, bugs, worms... Then you go home and have a stake for dinner. Do you think that cattle died from old age? No, it was slaughtered. Then you go to Wal-Mart yo buy some stuff. How about the wildlife that lived there before the parking lot was build?
OK, lets talk human. Not so long ago, before modern medicine was invented, people died from pretty mundane things like flu, pneumonia, giving birth, stepping on a rusted nail (tetanus), hypothermia, snake bite, all sorts of infections, blizzards, etc. Apart from that they had to fight wars or persecute criminals. In other words, it was so easy to die. That's why people had so many children (with the presumption that at least some will survive) - to keep life go on.
Now, if somebody died, it's the end of the world. How did it come to this?

Canell said:

Howdy,

OK, so why is killing such a big deal?
Is it because of the Commandments? In this case, why is killing prioritized as a taboo before all other commandments?
Is it because people fear death themselves?

Look around you - creatures die in great quantities at all times. Take a walk in the forest. Chances are you just killed hundreds of ants, bugs, worms... Then you go home and have a stake for dinner. Do you think that cattle died from old age? No, it was slaughtered. Then you go to Wal-Mart yo buy some stuff. How about the wildlife that lived there before the parking lot was build?
OK, lets talk human. Not so long ago, before modern medicine was invented, people died from pretty mundane things like flu, pneumonia, giving birth, stepping on a rusted nail (tetanus), hypothermia, snake bite, all sorts of infections, blizzards, etc. Apart from that they had to fight wars or persecute criminals. In other words, it was so easy to die. That's why people had so many children (with the presumption that at least some will survive) - to keep life go on.
Now, if somebody died, it's the end of the world. How did it come to this?

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Now that is a negative attitude i like.

Canell said:

Howdy,

OK, so why is killing such a big deal?
Is it because of the Commandments? In this case, why is killing prioritized as a taboo before all other commandments?
Is it because people fear death themselves?

Look around you - creatures die in great quantities at all times. Take a walk in the forest. Chances are you just killed hundreds of ants, bugs, worms... Then you go home and have a stake for dinner. Do you think that cattle died from old age? No, it was slaughtered. Then you go to Wal-Mart yo buy some stuff. How about the wildlife that lived there before the parking lot was build?
OK, lets talk human. Not so long ago, before modern medicine was invented, people died from pretty mundane things like flu, pneumonia, giving birth, stepping on a rusted nail (tetanus), hypothermia, snake bite, all sorts of infections, blizzards, etc. Apart from that they had to fight wars or persecute criminals. In other words, it was so easy to die. That's why people had so many children (with the presumption that at least some will survive) - to keep life go on.
Now, if somebody died, it's the end of the world. How did it come to this?

Click to expand...

I think that its always been the case that if someone close to you dies its a cause for sorrow, modern medicine or not.

Also its ridiculous to equate bugs or a cow to humans, and even sillier to expect people to have the same attitudes towards the death of a bug or cow as they do a person. The reason is obvious, it doesn't need explaining.

it's a big deal because it leads to severe societal instability. most ancient laws and rules promote the goal of a stable society; like not lying, stealing, or screwing everything that moves. these activities create disorder, and cause anger and unrest. killing is at the top of the list.

also, though we like to pretend we're not animals, we're basically sentient apes, and we do everything we can to distance ourselves from our animal instincts. we've been doing this for tens of thousands of years. we wear clothes even when we don't need to. we separate ourselves from nature. think about most of your basic animal instincts, and you'll find there's a taboo for every one of them. for a society or tribe to work, those animal instincts have to be tamed.

Because the Beta's and the Gamma's need to have an excuse to team up on the Alpha's.

1. Name anything you believe is a "big deal".
2. Can you (pursue, enjoy, observe, eat, etc.) that thing you claim is a "big deal", if someone kills you?
3. If yes: error. If no. That's your answer.

In that way, it's "bigger than the biggest deal" you can name. Which is, you know, a big deal.

Less precisely, have you ever really faced death?
Do you have kids?
These two things were sufficient for me to instill the importance of death, without being so logical about it.

What Mach said.

And I'll add, the reason we care more about killing each other over ants, cows, what have you...? Because we don't care about them. You could give two ****s about the pig that died to bring you pork chops or back ribs. But if it had to be your pet pig that you've had since a child...? You'd be eating pasta, and not pork. Emotional investment.

We are a part of Earth, just like any animal is. We are not seperated from the processes that make Earth. Our seperation from nature, and consumption of products and services creates idolatry. This takes us away from our journey on understanding who we are.

Even great societies are going to die out. Why do I know this? There was a TED talk where a biologist was studying cities like a human habitat. What he found is that humanity is able to battle nature's processes from mass killing by creating an innovation. Steadily, the rate of innovations have increased. Eventually, the rate of required innovations will be too fast to innovate. And Gaia will enact processes to eliminate the population problem that humanity has on this Earth.

So what is the point to all of this?

Our way of life maybe "better", but there is going to be massive death at the end of the road. Especially considering humanity refuses to do anything about population control. Which is fine, I get the arguments. But just with any other population problem that the Earth deals with (it is a perfect super-organism) large amount of humans are going to die. Even if that means we are consuming too much resources; that could be a way Gaia gets the last laugh.

If we were closer to nature, we would understand and initiate more sustainable practices. Death is a part of life.

Empires go through the same fate. We are in the age of decadance. Why does this cycle exist? Money. It isn't until we create an economy (The Resource Based Economy is an example) that doesn't utilize a currency, the cycle will continue.

Hell of a thing Killin another man......you take away all that he has, and all that he ever will.

Wiseone said:

Also its ridiculous to equate bugs or a cow to humans, and even sillier to expect people to have the same attitudes towards the death of a bug or cow as they do a person. The reason is obvious, it doesn't need explaining.

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OK, so let's imagine someone invaded your house and you shot him dead. Why should it be a big deal?

Mach said:

1. Name anything you believe is a "big deal".

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Happiness?

Mach said:

2. Can you (pursue, enjoy, observe, eat, etc.) that thing you claim is a "big deal", if someone kills you?

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Tell you the truth, I don't mind someone killing me. For the right reasons of course. :mrgreen:

Mach said:

Less precisely, have you ever really faced death?

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I believe I have.

Mach said:

Do you have kids?

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I don't think so.

Canell said:

OK, so let's imagine someone invaded your house and you shot him dead. Why should it be a big deal?

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Dude. It's a big deal. Dead people are messy, and you're going to have to clean that up yourself, the city won't help you.

cpwill said:

Dead people are messy

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Sig material.

cpwill said:

Dude. It's a big deal. Dead people are messy, and you're going to have to clean that up yourself, the city won't help you.

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I thought the cops were going to that for me. :roll:

Canell said:

Howdy,

OK, so why is killing such a big deal?
Is it because of the Commandments? In this case, why is killing prioritized as a taboo before all other commandments?
Is it because people fear death themselves?

Look around you - creatures die in great quantities at all times. Take a walk in the forest. Chances are you just killed hundreds of ants, bugs, worms... Then you go home and have a stake for dinner. Do you think that cattle died from old age? No, it was slaughtered. Then you go to Wal-Mart yo buy some stuff. How about the wildlife that lived there before the parking lot was build?
OK, lets talk human. Not so long ago, before modern medicine was invented, people died from pretty mundane things like flu, pneumonia, giving birth, stepping on a rusted nail (tetanus), hypothermia, snake bite, all sorts of infections, blizzards, etc. Apart from that they had to fight wars or persecute criminals. In other words, it was so easy to die. That's why people had so many children (with the presumption that at least some will survive) - to keep life go on.
Now, if somebody died, it's the end of the world. How did it come to this?

Click to expand...

On a practical level, long term relationships expose one to a range of stimulating emotions, with the strength of the emotions scaling according to the closeness of the relationship (parents-children, siblings, friends, etc). As such, they develop a natural interest in protecting them. Killing a specific individual (even an important one) doesn't threaten society's infrastructure in a meaningful way, but it does damage the premise that authority can be trusted to safeguard the things that are most important to us, and thus raises the specter of why every man has surrendered a portion of his will to the law. When people no longer believe in the law, it becomes every man against every man, which results in a kind of anarchy that makes it difficult enforce social cohesion beyond a network of families living in a shared community (aka, a tribe).

Well, that's what Hobbes thought.

Canell said:

I thought the cops were going to that for me. :roll:

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I mean, yeah, they'll take the guy. And then take over your house for a while. But getting those stains and that smell out is going to be all you, baby.

cpwill said:

I mean, yeah, they'll take the guy. And then take over your house for a while. But getting those stains and that smell out is going to be all you, baby.

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What smell, I intend to shoot the guy dead, not cremate him in my living room. :lol:
Anyway, I prefer the intruder dead instead of having any of my family members hurt or property stolen.
If you break the law it's your problem! However, if the law forbids me from defending myself, it's my problem.

Canell said:

Howdy,

OK, so why is killing such a big deal?
Is it because of the Commandments? In this case, why is killing prioritized as a taboo before all other commandments?
Is it because people fear death themselves?

Look around you - creatures die in great quantities at all times. Take a walk in the forest. Chances are you just killed hundreds of ants, bugs, worms... Then you go home and have a stake for dinner. Do you think that cattle died from old age? No, it was slaughtered. Then you go to Wal-Mart yo buy some stuff. How about the wildlife that lived there before the parking lot was build?
OK, lets talk human. Not so long ago, before modern medicine was invented, people died from pretty mundane things like flu, pneumonia, giving birth, stepping on a rusted nail (tetanus), hypothermia, snake bite, all sorts of infections, blizzards, etc. Apart from that they had to fight wars or persecute criminals. In other words, it was so easy to die. That's why people had so many children (with the presumption that at least some will survive) - to keep life go on.
Now, if somebody died, it's the end of the world. How did it come to this?

Click to expand...

Killing is the 6th commandment, not the first. So, yeah, I agree. Lets kill. Just don't buy any Jesus statues or say goddammit and you'll be fine.

Canell said:

What smell, I intend to shoot the guy dead, not cremate him in my living room. :lol:

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Body fluids, waste, etc.

Anyway, I prefer the intruder dead instead of having any of my family members hurt or property stolen.
If you break the law it's your problem!

Click to expand...

I'm a big fan of "castle" laws. Some states have idiotic restrictions on them (like the guy has to break through two doors), but if you invade someone's home, they have the right to assume you are a threat.

Canell said:

OK, so let's imagine someone invaded your house and you shot him dead. Why should it be a big deal?

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Someone is dead, let's accept that as a fact, but whether they invaded your home, or you shot your ex-wife who you claim was "invading" has to be determined. And it's given significant priority and importance because again, dying is a big deal. If someone put a toy car on your lawn, you can point out that they trespassed to do it, but it's not a big deal, so no one (except perhaps the grumpy hold man) would believe otherwise.

Some simple guidelines for determining a sort of generic degree of importance:
1. How easily, if at all, are the effects reversible?
2. How serve potentially are potential outcomes?

In business for example, you may not put a lot of time and effort into solving an easily reversible problem, or a problem that has very little overall risk. You just shoot from the hip on those. But if it would cost a fortune to reverse...you may raise its importance. Likewise, if the effects are very sever, like you go to jail for 20 years...it would warrant serious consideration.

Death just so happens to bury the needle on both of those measurements.
Irreversible.
The most severe outcome.

(But also notice how millions die every day and it's to us, relatively, not a big deal...we don't even know who/what/when!. So in that way we're primarily concerned about ones that may effect us, or that we think may effect us. )

As such, it's a big deal

Happiness?

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Tough to be happy when you are dead. Is the point.

Tell you the truth, I don't mind someone killing me. For the right reasons of course. :mrgreen:

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I know what you mean and I agree. But that qualification like the above home invader, has to be determined. And we'd want to pay special attention to it (it's a big deal!) because there is a fatality involved.

I don't think so.

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None that they have been able to prove

cpwill said:

Dude. It's a big deal. Dead people are messy, and you're going to have to clean that up yourself, the city won't help you.

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It's like he's never seen Pulp Fiction.

cpwill said:

Body fluids, waste, etc.

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Fair enough.

cpwill said:

I'm a big fan of "castle" laws. Some states have idiotic restrictions on them (like the guy has to break through two doors), but if you invade someone's home, they have the right to assume you are a threat.

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You don't want to know the law in my country. It's embarrassing! We are not even permitted to own guns under normal circumstances and have to rely on the police to protect us and the court to put invaders behind bars. Usually you would be dead long before that, if you follow my thought.

I can't tell you "why" killing is such a big deal. but I can tell you it is a big deal. I've killed more people than I care to remember and every time it was a big deal.

OscarB63 said:

I can't tell you "why" killing is such a big deal. but I can tell you it is a big deal. I've killed more people than I care to remember and every time it was a big deal.

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Are you a bomber pilot? Or just a politician? :lol:

Canell said:

Are you a bomber pilot? Or just a politician? :lol:

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Military Police, multiple combat tours, Desert Storm thru OIF/OEF

Value of life is one of the things that seperates us from the animals.