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Is debate productive?

Debate is only productive so long as it is done between two open-minded individuals, which usually isn't the case. It's usually two people enter with a particular set of beliefs that are set in stone and they leave thinking exactly the same way. I view debate as a means to come to a single conclusion, based on the evidence. It rarely ever works out that way.
 
I sense a certain tension (even possibly a contradiction) in your post. If it's the case that all human beings are prone to bias, then on what basis can you say there is some "truth" to any matter? You're just as prone to such bias as anyone else. All that exists are interpretations and construals in such a case--no truth. So debate cannot generate truth, because there is no such thing. It can facilitate conversation among points of view. And while that's all, that still seems productive.

There is Truth, but I believe it is often more complex than individuals are actually capable of perceiving or understanding entirely. Humans are cognitive misers and we look for short cuts, categories, and generalizations to take complex concepts and make them more manageable, and that process is valuable but a shortcoming of it is that it narrows and simplifies. That is why adults are often amazed at how wise children can seem when they make a broad observation. They have not yet spent their lives narrowing their perspective like adults have and the benefit for them is that they can often see a broader view than the adult who has become rigid and restricted in their thinking as they have developed their respective value judgements by which they filter their perceptions and interpretations of the world. But I do agree that debate can be productive if it is used as a tool for learning and understanding.

As for me, yes, I am painfully aware that I am like every other human being and subject to my own respective biases.
 
You are confusing debate with arguing and bickering.
 
A simple reality I have come to understand about people is that people generally treat what they believe as the Truth.

This is an odd tendency of people because we all seem to really be operating under certain values, perceptions, and interpretations, which can differ considerably and which we may assume are infallible and objective, but which are inherently subjective.

For example, whether it is religion or atheism there is a sense of certainty about the belief that people seem to pretend is justified. I watch people, and even have in the past been a party to, long debates about religious scriptures, which from the outside makes about as much sense as chasing a dog in a locked kennel. Such debates are not about the Truth of scriptures but about the truth of the particular interpretations each party holds or the perceptions of how infallible those scriptures are. As such the debate is not really about the scriptures but about the assumptions of the people taking part in the debate. Likewise, I see atheistic debates that are just as absurd because arguing that one has never perceived a deity within their personal experience is not evidence that someone else has not perceived a deity within their personal experience. Who is to argue that a deity does not exist for those who choose to believe in one?

Values, in and of themselves, are often treated as objective, verifiable, irrefutable, and common sense. However values are typically just ideals or culturally influenced standards of conduct and they can often be contradictory. Entire nations have gone to war over differences in values, giving truth to that old adage that WAR stands for "we are right." It seems all too common that this type of certainty that a particular set of values is inherently superior to all others, is accepted on faith alone to the extent that people will kill or oppress to promote their respective view.

If debate is viewed as a war of ideas, then who is really the winner? Can a productive understanding really be achieved while trying to defend ideas that are inherently based on subjective values, perceptions, and interpretations? Even if the evidence is superior and the facts support a particular view that does not change the reality that people choose to believe what they do based on what they personally perceive in the world and how they interpret that information in the context of their values. Two people can look at exactly the same data and draw completely different interpretations about what that data says which is why even solid scientific methodology holds little value in swaying established beliefs.

All debate seems to accomplish is to help firm up the convictions of the people who engage in it. I suppose I could assume that observers of debate could be swayed to a particular viewpoint if it is presented well, but I am more inclined to believe that observers are subject to the same subjective biases of values, perceptions, and interpretations as all other human beings. I think debate may work well to move the undecided to one direction or another by presenting information that is aligned to their particular values, perceptions, and interpretations, but that would be the extent to which I could see debate actually being productive.
Debate is not about convincing anyone.

Debate is about proving an argument true or false.

"Productive", then, is determined by you're ability to prove a claim true or false.

People will still believe what they want regardless of the truth, so swaying opinion is not an indicator of productive debate.

Also, debate is not about being right. You can be wrong and still make a better argument.
 
It is tough to discern what is constructive.
I think it's easy. I have a good sense of what all the lines of reasoning are on the major issues. I know what points I agree and disagree with and I can articulate why better now than before I debated. That's constructive.

What then is the next step when what you have is simply a disagreement of how people choose to see things?
There is no next step. There is just you having a better understanding of yourself and others...or not. That's it. There's nothing to do, no action to take. It's all academic.
 
Debate is not about convincing anyone.

Debate is about proving an argument true or false.

"Productive", then, is determined by you're ability to prove a claim true or false.

People will still believe what they want regardless of the truth, so swaying opinion is not an indicator of productive debate.

Also, debate is not about being right. You can be wrong and still make a better argument.

I disagree. To me debate is about revealing your ideas to others who wish to challenge them with ideas of there own. Thereby, forcing one to consider errors, falsehoods and differing perspectives. It's about learning. It's a form of collective information gathering.
 
I disagree. To me debate is about revealing your ideas to others who wish to challenge them with ideas of there own. Thereby, forcing one to consider errors, falsehoods and differing perspectives. It's about learning. It's a form of collective information gathering.
That's what I said, proving arguments true or false.

You can't force anyone to do anything. This is just a website. You won't be arrested if you refuse to address a point or contrary evidence. If you box someone into a corner they just leave.
 
That's what I said, proving arguments true or false.

You can't force anyone to do anything. This is just a website. You won't be arrested if you refuse to address a point or contrary evidence. If you box someone into a corner they just leave.

except I am also happy to be proven wrong, I might just learn something... but I'll admit I'm either hard headed or rarely wrong:cool:
 
That's what I said, proving arguments true or false.

You can't force anyone to do anything. This is just a website. You won't be arrested if you refuse to address a point or contrary evidence. If you box someone into a corner they just leave.

I think you cannot really "prove" anything one way or another when it comes to most topics debated here. Demonstrating causation requires experimental designs that are usually not possible. The best we do here is challenge reasoning, but that still comes down to the accepted premises.
 
long debates about religious scriptures, which from the outside makes about as much sense as chasing a dog in a locked kennel.

I see why you might come to this conclusion at first glance. This is very short sighted and out of touch with the realities of human nature.

We are very impressionable and do receive enlightenment from what other people say on a frequent basis. When debating politics, religion or other topics where strong principles are held it is unlikely that someone will admit that their mind has been changed. Just because you see no fruit of the conversation doesn't mean it didn't have an impact. People like to describe arguments as divisive. That's completely silly. Heated tempers bring about deep though and introspection to the other party. This painful and uncomfortable dialogue leads to many solutions that we take for granted today.

It's a lot like God. Just because we don't see Him doesn't mean He isn't there. Just because we don't see a changed mind doesn't mean it isn't there.
 
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