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How Religion does Harm

calamity said:
Sure. Any laws introduced by Christians is suspect...you know, since that whole Chrsitian thing itself is suspect---at least, as we know, it's not based on anything tangible. It lacks facts. So, when people make laws based on delusions, I worry.
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Wrong. Have you not researched who voted for the bill (Clinton signed into law) including this "bad" amendment and found that getting votes to keep them in office was not harmed? Congess critters (of both parties) do what keeps them in office; that is based on two things 1) getting needed campaign cash and 2) voter acceptance of (apathy towards?) their policy decisions.
 
Satan never looks like, walks like, talks like or acts like Satan.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Wrong. Have you not researched who voted for the bill (Clinton signed into law) including this "bad" amendment and found that getting votes to keep them in office was not harmed? Congess critters (of both parties) do what keeps them in office; that is based on two things 1) getting needed campaign cash and 2) voter acceptance of (apathy towards?) their policy decisions.
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Clinton, the former Panderer in Chief, is far from reliable on these matters. I'm surprised that you, as a Libertarian, would consider something Clinton did reasonable. It's a little like a Liberal espousing the wonders of GWB because they liked "No Child Left Behind".
 
shagg said:
emotionally charged drivel. communism = religion = atheism? therefore all deaths at the hands of commie dictators are laid at the feet of atheism? god inspired murder doesn't begin and end with Christianity either.
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Strawman. Never said communism = religion = atheism...

But the fact is non-Christians (atheists, etc.) by far, have engaged in more bloodshed, mayhem, and murders than any other group in history.
 
calamity said:
Clinton, the former Panderer in Chief, is far from reliable on these matters. I'm surprised that you, as a Libertarian, would consider something Clinton did reasonable. It's a little like a Liberal espousing the wonders of GWB because they liked "No Child Left Behind".
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Is it not odd that Obama, after saying that Bush taxation policies caused the great recession, has kept the vast majority of those "bad" taxation policies? Get over yourself. You cannot fool me into separating the reality of current policy with the great leadership of those that created/kept it. Obama and Clinton are in the same party and support the same platform (for the most part) yet you praise Obama and put down Clinton - the extreme hypocricy in that position is noted.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Is it not odd that Obama, after saying that Bush taxation policies caused the great recession, has kept the vast majority of those "bad" taxation policies? Get over yourself. You cannot fool me into separating the reality of current policy with the great leadership of those that created/kept it. Obama and Clinton are in the same party and support the same platform (for the most part) yet you praise Obama and put down Clinton - the extreme hypocricy in that position is noted.
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Obama is actually to the Right of Clinton. I'm not sure where I stand on him yet. I'll know more in 2018 or so.
 
shagg said:
funny how the shoe ends up on the other foot when you change topics. "It doesn't matter, the law/courts are on our side and they should be respected" church and state or abortion and you fight tooth and nail against the very same position.
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Using the "courts are on our side" is usually a liberal tactic. We usually go for the majority, the will of the people individually deciding but coming together as the majority. You folks are the ones who rely on the minority, the judges legislating from the bench types. We understand and agree with the rule of law. The laws are made by the majority of elected officials representing the rest of us.

We accept that the abortion issue is codified in current law, up to a certain point as this is one of those cases where the courts made it up as they went and is not really what we all agreed upon, we have the right to be against it and will, just as you said, fight it tooth and nail, through all available legal means, to put a stop to the killing of the most innocent. Anybody with a conscience should be doing the same.
 
Logicman said:
Strawman. Never said communism = religion = atheism...

But the fact is non-Christians (atheists, etc.) by far, have engaged in more bloodshed, mayhem, and murders than any other group in history.
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the article you linked was based on fuzzy math that relied on commie dictators being counted as atheists. It also only included deaths at the hands of the christian god, not gods in general.
 
shagg said:
the article you linked was based on fuzzy math that relied on commie dictators being counted as atheists. It also only included deaths at the hands of the christian god, not gods in general.
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I think we know Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., were more godless butchers than God-fearing men of faith. And there's little dispute in history about the tens of millions of people who wound up dead by their hands.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That is the tail wagging the dog logic. No benefit can be shown yet we need to allow it? Your last sentence says it all, alternatives exist and are being used.
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I'm saying that because no benefit has been found does not mean one will never be found. I'm sure penicillin looked useless at first also.

Stem Cells: 10 Diseases They May

As the title says, it may not cure these diseases, only research and trials will say for sure. But how could you ignore the potential for cures to diseases and conditions like these?

You ignored my question again, why is it better to let IVF leftovers to remain frozen until they're no longer viable rather than use them in research?

By calling Induced pluripotent stem cells an alternative, do you support research using them? I honestly would like to know how the religious community feels about them.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Using the "courts are on our side" is usually a liberal tactic. We usually go for the majority, the will of the people individually deciding but coming together as the majority. You folks are the ones who rely on the minority, the judges legislating from the bench types. We understand and agree with the rule of law. The laws are made by the majority of elected officials representing the rest of us.

We accept that the abortion issue is codified in current law, up to a certain point as this is one of those cases where the courts made it up as they went and is not really what we all agreed upon, we have the right to be against it and will, just as you said, fight it tooth and nail, through all available legal means, to put a stop to the killing of the most innocent. Anybody with a conscience should be doing the same.
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So the courts got it wrong on church and state and you're fighting it. They ruled on abortion but you're fighting it anyway. They ruled on Stem cell research and everyone should just respect the decision and let it end there. Gotcha. All I see is Hypocrite.
 
Logicman said:
I think we know Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., were more godless butchers than God-fearing men of faith. And there's little dispute in history about the tens of millions of people who wound up dead by their hands.
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Sorry, Hitler was a faithful Catholic to the end and the Catholic church helped smuggle Nazi war criminals out of Germany on Catholic Red Cross visas. The Nazis were extremely religious, you can't pin that on atheism at all. As for Stalin and Pol Pot, certainly they were atheists, but none of their killing was done in the name of atheism, but in the name of politics. Nowhere can you produce a single quote from either of them saying they were doing what they were doing because of their atheism, while you can certainly produce many, many quotes from Hitler where he said that he was killing the Jews specifically because he thought God told him to.

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf
 
Logicman said:
I think we know Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., were more godless butchers than God-fearing men of faith. And there's little dispute in history about the tens of millions of people who wound up dead by their hands.
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You give atheism a broad sweeping definition and then narrowly define religion as strictly Christianity. If you want to take up this debate you have to own up to all religiously inspired killings throughout history, including things like sacrifices made by the Mayans and wars started by individuals claiming to be a god incarnate.
 
Cephus said:
Sorry, Hitler was a faithful Catholic to the end and the Catholic church helped smuggle Nazi war criminals out of Germany on Catholic Red Cross visas. The Nazis were extremely religious, you can't pin that on atheism at all.
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Hitler was anything but a Christian. His works were the works of the devil, and Jesus said that's how you would know the wolves in sheep's clothing. Hitler even persecuted Christians.

Cephus said:
As for Stalin and Pol Pot, certainly they were atheists, but none of their killing was done in the name of atheism, but in the name of politics. Nowhere can you produce a single quote from either of them saying they were doing what they were doing because of their atheism, while you can certainly produce many, many quotes from Hitler where he said that he was killing the Jews specifically because he thought God told him to.
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Stalin and Pol Pot didn't have to kill in the name of atheism for what they did to be a blight on atheists. They were atheists and they were mass murderers.

As for quotes on Hitler, here's a sampling showing he hated Christianity: Was Hitler Christian?

Cephus said:
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf
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It's not what they say, it's what they do that defines their Christianity. Again, Jesus said you shall know his disciples by their fruits (works). And Hitler's fruit was rotten to the core.
 
shagg said:
You give atheism a broad sweeping definition and then narrowly define religion as strictly Christianity. If you want to take up this debate you have to own up to all religiously inspired killings throughout history, including things like sacrifices made by the Mayans and wars started by individuals claiming to be a god incarnate.
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Nope. I only answer for Christianity. And I say if everyone followed Christ's teachings to love your neighbor and even to love your enemies, then all murders would cease.

Every scourge in the world that is deliberately man-caused is the result of some violation of Christ's teachings.
 
Logicman said:
Hitler was anything but a Christian. His works were the works of the devil, and Jesus said that's how you would know the wolves in sheep's clothing. Hitler even persecuted Christians.
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"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - Adolph Hitler, speech, April 12, 1922.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - Adolph Hitler to Gerhard Engel, 1941.

There are many, many, many other examples that can be given where Hitler himself identifies as a Christian. You can reject reality if you like, but that doesn't change the facts.

Stalin and Pol Pot didn't have to kill in the name of atheism for what they did to be a blight on atheists. They were atheists and they were mass murderers.
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So every Christian who ever killed anyone, even if it had nothing to do with Christianity, is a blight on Christianity? Seriously?

It's not what they say, it's what they do that defines their Christianity. Again, Jesus said you shall know his disciples by their fruits (works). And Hitler's fruit was rotten to the core.
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In other words, you think you get to redefine people because it makes your silly beliefs look bad.

Sure, knock yourself out. :roll:
 
Cephus said:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - Adolph Hitler, speech, April 12, 1922.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - Adolph Hitler to Gerhard Engel, 1941.

There are many, many, many other examples that can be given where Hitler himself identifies as a Christian. You can reject reality if you like, but that doesn't change the facts.
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You're fighting a losing battle. It's not what they say, it's what they do that defines their Christianity. Again, Jesus said you shall know his disciples by their fruits (works). And Hitler's fruit was rotten to the core. Do you not understand this very basic definition of a disciple of Christ, as related by Christ himself? He's the one who gets to define Christianity, not revisionist liberals and atheists.

Cephus said:
So every Christian who ever killed anyone, even if it had nothing to do with Christianity, is a blight on Christianity? Seriously?
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It's a violation of Christian principles to murder people. That's a fact.
 
Logicman said:
You're fighting a losing battle. It's not what they say, it's what they do that defines their Christianity. Again, Jesus said you shall know his disciples by their fruits (works). And Hitler's fruit was rotten to the core. Do you not understand this very basic definition of a disciple of Christ, as related by Christ himself? He's the one who gets to define Christianity, not revisionist liberals and atheists.
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This is a variant on the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy, where you simply define anyone who doesn't act like you want them to act as not a Scotsman, or in this case, a Christian. Amazing how Hitler and everyone around him, including the Catholic Church, thought Hitler was a good Christian, now you get to decide, all on your lonesome, that he wasn't.

Ah, the delusions of grandeur.

It's a violation of Christian principles to murder people. That's a fact.
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Then you should tell that to all the people in your Bible that murdered by the thousands. You should condemn your deity for murdering by the millions. Oh yeah, it's only wrong when it suits your purposes. Intellectual honesty, it's not really something Christians are good at.
 
Cephus said:
This is a variant on the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy, where you simply define anyone who doesn't act like you want them to act as not a Scotsman, or in this case, a Christian. Amazing how Hitler and everyone around him, including the Catholic Church, thought Hitler was a good Christian, now you get to decide, all on your lonesome, that he wasn't.

Ah, the delusions of grandeur.
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I didn't define who is a disciple of Christ, Jesus did. And Hitler flunked the test big time. So once again, you and your fellow atheists & agnostics don't get to define who is a Christian and who's not. Jesus is the one.

Cephus said:
Then you should tell that to all the people in your Bible that murdered by the thousands. You should condemn your deity for murdering by the millions. Oh yeah, it's only wrong when it suits your purposes. Intellectual honesty, it's not really something Christians are good at.
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You confuse murder with divine justice. Typical of the anti-biblical crowd.
 
Logicman said:
I didn't define who is a disciple of Christ, Jesus did. And Hitler flunked the test big time. So once again, you and your fellow atheists & agnostics don't get to define who is a Christian and who's not. Jesus is the one.
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According to you. He's still prominently part of the Catholic membership rolls, he was never excommunicated. Apparently, your opinion isn't widely popular.

You confuse murder with divine justice. Typical of the anti-biblical crowd.
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According to Hitler, God personally commanded him to exterminate the Jews. Then again, he was just following Martin Luther's lead, who was a leading anti-Semite of his day, who thought the German people should throw the Jews into the streets and confiscate their property and if they didn't like it, they could "whine to their God".

Of course, you don't know any of these things because you're not dealing with facts, you're dealing with blind faith.
 
Cephus said:
According to you. He's still prominently part of the Catholic membership rolls, he was never excommunicated. Apparently, your opinion isn't widely popular.

According to Hitler, God personally commanded him to exterminate the Jews. Then again, he was just following Martin Luther's lead, who was a leading anti-Semite of his day, who thought the German people should throw the Jews into the streets and confiscate their property and if they didn't like it, they could "whine to their God".

Of course, you don't know any of these things because you're not dealing with facts, you're dealing with blind faith.
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That's nonsense. The fact remains you can't diss Christianity by citing examples of people who violate its principles.
 
Logicman said:
That's nonsense. The fact remains you can't diss Christianity by citing examples of people who violate its principles.
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*YOUR* principles. In case you haven't noticed, there are over 30,000 distinct sects of Christianity out there, virtually all of them disagree with you on major doctrinal issues. Most of them are hemorrhaging members like there's no tomorrow as religion, across the board, falls apart in the first world.

Bet you didn't know that either.
 
Cephus said:
*YOUR* principles. In case you haven't noticed, there are over 30,000 distinct sects of Christianity out there, virtually all of them disagree with you on major doctrinal issues. Most of them are hemorrhaging members like there's no tomorrow as religion, across the board, falls apart in the first world.
Bet you didn't know that either.
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Hey - Christ is risen in all four Gospels. Try giving me 30,000 variations of that.

Also, it's atheism that's on the decline. Decline of atheism - Conservapedia

So you'll need to get your own conflicted house in order.
 
Logicman said:
Hey - Christ is risen in all four Gospels. Try giving me 30,000 variations of that.
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So what? Your book of bronze-age mythology says the same thing in four books that were copied from a single source. I'm sure Hitler believed that too and you're willing to declare him a non-Christian because it gets in the way of your delusional agenda.

Also, it's atheism that's on the decline. Decline of atheism - Conservapedia
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Okay, I see your problem, you take Conservapedia seriously. :roll:

So you'll need to get your own conflicted house in order.
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Ah, that good old religious delusion. Don't you love it.
 
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