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The flaw of scientific naturalism and Atheism

You'll have to demonstrate... unless you are playing at semantics and the "observation", being an action of consciousness makes the difference... Yes, detectors have the capacity of collapsing the wave, because they have a dim awareness, simply to detect whatever it's designed for.
Inanimate objects have a "dim awareness"?!? I think I'm done talking with you about QM. You fail - miserably.


You are obviously stretching reality far beyond any reasonable limit in an attempt to prove a point that violates the laws of physics as we know them.
 
Yes, I accept that fossilization is a very particular process, and there are undoubtedly a number of gaps that could be filled with entire species that never left a fossil.

But in a general sense, there is a sufficient variety of species to make the point... well, yes there is generational variations in dna, and sometimes that can turn into changes of species, in the sense of how wolves have been bred into hundreds of variations of dogs in all shapes and sizes... but that's manipulation of evolution, with an outside selection of traits.
Manipulation that is not much different than possible environmental changes.


However, organisms, though you deny the science on this, have demonstrable levels of intelligence, nothing relative to any anthropomorphic intelligence, but

Like the single celled organisms that have demonstrated reasoning. Plants that share water to demonstrate the understanding of their relationship to neighboring plants.
The Spiegelman Monster and all it's cousins are not alive nor are they "learning" - yet they exhibit the same behavior as your alleged "intelligence".

But I guess for someone who thinks a hunk of metal has a "dim awareness" I shouldn't be surprised. :roll:
 
Still you are stuck with an impossibility with ANY MATERIALIST explanation you might come up with, not so long ago you were fine without making that distinction... this really is like a type of shifting the goalposts... a common trend in this thread it seems...
No goalposts got shifted. You tried to slide the Origin Question into Evolution when everyone else is well aware of the difference between the two subjects. That's not anyone's fault but yours.



DNA/RNA is an instruction set for the organism, however if there is nothing to process that DNA/RNA then you would have just a set of DNA/RNA that does nothing.

Also, as I pointed out before, there's not one experiment that has replicated the development of the primordial soup to original forms of life, without artificially adding genetic material.
And we've only been trying to do it for a few decades when it took millions of years on Earth - IF that's what happened. There's no reason to suppose we won't hit the right combination eventually. Personally, I think they need to imitate ocean vents, but that's really expensive because of the pressures involved.


Considering the unrealistic burden of proof you seem to be expecting (for the time being, science is accelerating at an exponential rate, and while the principles I'm bringing up are valid, we don't have all the answers), I feel that I've overall been making a reasonable case...
Unreasonable burden of proof? When you go against existing facts and theories you have a very high wall to climb. Add that to your irrational and ignorant (lack of knowledge) interpretations and you're not even off the ground, yet. The wall still towers above you.



Ya, but that violates your principle of gradual generational evolution.
No it doesn't. It's been estimated that a camera eye similar to ours would take about 500,000 years to develop and that's assuming nothing more for a starting point then the first photo-receptor cell. That's the blink of an eye (pun intended) in geological and evolutionary terms. I'm sure you've never read The Ancestors Tale but maybe you should so you have a better idea of evolution and the time scales involved.



Just qualifying a definition that will be valid universally, given the new findings of quantum physics... and this definition makes it possible to close the paradoxes within Darwins theories, and the theories stemming from that...
Your interpretation of QM is laughable.

You've shown no paradoxes in the Theory of Evolution.


but I also was quite surprised with how stubborn you would be to protect the materialist viewpoint, that viewpoint works for most cases, yes... but with new information, it's possible to refine the theories with new knowledge.
And if credible scientists who actually know what they're talking about publish papers on those ideas I'll be happy to read them and the reviews they get from other credible scientists.

Your misunderstandings, skewed interpretations, and personal definitions of common concepts don't make you very credible.
 
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This is nonsensical. It is the old claim that anything can exist that isn't proven not to. That is a totally worthless claim.

That isn't my claim at all. My claim is anything that would be given as evidence a natrualist would ignore assuming that there must be a naturalistic explination for it.
 
Which is merely reversing the unfounded claim that goddidit. Nature exists. It's natural or God-made. Occam says natural doesn't beg the question.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "psychological and structural changes". Could you elaborate?


The rest of your post is spot on, though behavioral changes may or may not be passed to future generations. One might expect future generations (with similar genetics) to adapt their behavior in a manor similar to the parents even if there is no instruction between them but there's no guarantee of that.

Behavioral= responses made by an organism in any situation.

Physiological= characteristics of a healthy of normal functioning of the body.

Structural= organic structure.
 
Behavioral= responses made by an organism in any situation.

Physiological= characteristics of a healthy of normal functioning of the body.
I would call that common or normal behavior. Tomato, tomato. :shrug:


Structural= organic structure.
I'm still not sure what you mean by this. How do you see an animal changing it's organic structure? I can see things like shells changing shape or termite mounds being built differently to adapt to the environment. Is that what you mean?
 
However, like after the dinosaurs died off, the survivors of the catastrophe had to adapt or die very quickly... And so there is a surge in creativity, and it turned that it was mammals strategies that won out once life returned to a stable position, but the transition phase was exceptionally brief to allow for changes as Darwin proposed, and that gradual genetic changes that can be accounted...


Now, I want to be clear so we're not talking past each other, but by way of example, we have grey squirrels and black squirrels near my house, though the overwhelming majority are grey. There is no environmental pressure to favor one over the other so they will both co-exist. But, lets say over the next year a predator is introduced that cannot see black squirrels (maybe black is not a color that is made out easily by the eye mechanisms of the predator and tends to blend in with the background) as well as grey ones. Being particularly efficient hunters the grey squirrels are wiped out in just a few years....From that point on most if not all squirrels born are black.

Did the squirrel adapt? Yes, but it wasn't an active intelligent process, it was totally random. If there were no black squirrels then all squirrels would have been wiped out just like 99% of everything else that has ever lived. It was blind chance, luck that the squirrel population had a random neutral (until that point) genetic change that made some of them black.

The point is that evolution isn't a directed process. Environments change and natural selection (which is not a choice even though the word "selection" sounds like a word that requires an intelligence to make), but a test of which organisms already have coping mechanisms in place. Those born with favorable traits pass their genes on, those that do not, generally die, or at the very least fail to reproduce.

As far as your claim that transition phases were "exceptionally brief". This is a vague claim I really can't address without more detail, but seems similar to claims I've heard before like the "cambrian explosion" which have been debated, but I think the evidence shows that, while life did "explode" in a brief period on the geologic timescale, was still an awful long time when measuring in generations of the organisms that evolved during that time.
 
I'm still not sure what you mean by this. How do you see an animal changing it's organic structure? I can see things like shells changing shape or termite mounds being built differently to adapt to the environment. Is that what you mean?

Yes, perhaps I unnecessarily overcomplicated it....
 
Inanimate objects have a "dim awareness"?!? I think I'm done talking with you about QM. You fail - miserably.


You are obviously stretching reality far beyond any reasonable limit in an attempt to prove a point that violates the laws of physics as we know them.

And here I was hoping you'd actually demonstrate how I was wrong...

Anyway, what is a sensor / detector?? It's not "alive", no, but ultimately the sensor, say to detect light, receives a stimulus (light source) and then responds. It has no awareness beyond that.

Almost everything about quantum physics is anathema to Newtonian physics...
 
No goalposts got shifted. You tried to slide the Origin Question into Evolution when everyone else is well aware of the difference between the two subjects. That's not anyone's fault but yours.

First you wanted the double slit experiment replicated in macro size, I explained the challenges of that, but explained that there were experiments that have shown it to be the case, and even some technology that is macro objects taking advantage of quantum effects.



And we've only been trying to do it for a few decades when it took millions of years on Earth - IF that's what happened. There's no reason to suppose we won't hit the right combination eventually. Personally, I think they need to imitate ocean vents, but that's really expensive because of the pressures involved.

They didn't even manage to get a partial string of DNA, except for adding from the outside.

Unreasonable burden of proof? When you go against existing facts and theories you have a very high wall to climb. Add that to your irrational and ignorant (lack of knowledge) interpretations and you're not even off the ground, yet. The wall still towers above you.

Not easy when you can't even recognize the flaws of the materialist position...

And ultimately, it will come to be known that this interpretation is the only possible correct one... (or close to it, far more refined than I am getting)

Hell, I've even shown examples of intelligence down to the single celled organisms, and the defense was that "of course they can solve a maze, it takes just processing 1's and 0's but that doesn't imply intelligence" (close paraphrase)


No it doesn't. It's been estimated that a camera eye similar to ours would take about 500,000 years to develop and that's assuming nothing more for a starting point then the first photo-receptor cell. That's the blink of an eye (pun intended) in geological and evolutionary terms. I'm sure you've never read The Ancestors Tale but maybe you should so you have a better idea of evolution and the time scales involved.

I already explained the mechanism of creative solutions and how that's played out in steps that were more like "leaps" in the refinement of the development of sight.

Your interpretation of QM is laughable.

Except its all experimentally been verified...

You've shown no paradoxes in the Theory of Evolution.

You just don't see them as a paradox...


And if credible scientists who actually know what they're talking about publish papers on those ideas I'll be happy to read them and the reviews they get from other credible scientists.

Your misunderstandings, skewed interpretations, and personal definitions of common concepts don't make you very credible.

I've told you about a dozen different published experiments, inventions, etc...

And what's more, you keep telling me that I'm wrong, but continuously fail to explain why I am wrong and offer a correction.

I am starting to think that you just don't know what is being found in this new science... It truly is wild... I haven't even started talking about superposition, non locality, signalless communication, among all the other principles of quantum physics that have been experimentally verified.

It seems as though you are approaching this topic from a dogmatic position rather than one of true knowledge.
 
Which is merely reversing the unfounded claim that goddidit. Nature exists. It's natural or God-made. Occam says natural doesn't beg the question.

The evidence is starting to build where "god" and "nature" are going to have to intersect.

Occams razor really only is valid when all the evidence has been considered afterall.
 
Yes, perhaps I unnecessarily overcomplicated it....
Not for the people here that don't understand even the basics of evolution. Your more descriptive method drives home some good points.

I'm just Old School and learned all of that as "behavior", whether it's a change in hunting strategy or a different design for an ant hill. ;)
 
And here I was hoping you'd actually demonstrate how I was wrong...

Anyway, what is a sensor / detector?? It's not "alive", no, but ultimately the sensor, say to detect light, receives a stimulus (light source) and then responds. It has no awareness beyond that.

Almost everything about quantum physics is anathema to Newtonian physics...
Others have already tried as have I. At this point I'm just sick of the BS. If you really wanted to learn you'd read some real science books.

There's no "awareness" at all. A simple molecule can absorb and emit a photon - even a lone atom can do that, happens all the time. You've taken this animation track of yours past the extremes at this point and moved on to Fantasy Land.

Only in extremely minute and limited systems. Add enough variables and it becomes quite predictable, much like molecules of gas in a sealed beaker.
 
Now, I want to be clear so we're not talking past each other, but by way of example, we have grey squirrels and black squirrels near my house, though the overwhelming majority are grey. There is no environmental pressure to favor one over the other so they will both co-exist. But, lets say over the next year a predator is introduced that cannot see black squirrels (maybe black is not a color that is made out easily by the eye mechanisms of the predator and tends to blend in with the background) as well as grey ones. Being particularly efficient hunters the grey squirrels are wiped out in just a few years....From that point on most if not all squirrels born are black.

Did the squirrel adapt? Yes, but it wasn't an active intelligent process, it was totally random. If there were no black squirrels then all squirrels would have been wiped out just like 99% of everything else that has ever lived. It was blind chance, luck that the squirrel population had a random neutral (until that point) genetic change that made some of them black.

The point is that evolution isn't a directed process. Environments change and natural selection (which is not a choice even though the word "selection" sounds like a word that requires an intelligence to make), but a test of which organisms already have coping mechanisms in place. Those born with favorable traits pass their genes on, those that do not, generally die, or at the very least fail to reproduce.

This is more of a case of extinction, of failure of a particular "survival strategy", in all likelihood, the squirrels would maintain the genetics to allow them to reproduce brown squirrels.

The point I'm making is more like how there are simple organisms, then over a relatively short period there is the Cambrian explosion... Then theres a period of hundreds of millions of years where there are little changes, then the next era where most of what existed in the Cambrian disappears with a wide variety of species that are mostly all vastly different, with another period of relative evolutionary stability.

So, the point is that while there are periods where there are genetic changes and adaptation, but then there are periods where the environment changes and without a huge change, most species died off...

As far as your claim that transition phases were "exceptionally brief". This is a vague claim I really can't address without more detail, but seems similar to claims I've heard before like the "cambrian explosion" which have been debated, but I think the evidence shows that, while life did "explode" in a brief period on the geologic timescale, was still an awful long time when measuring in generations of the organisms that evolved during that time.

Ok, well, when we are talking about periods ranging in the hundreds of millions of years, a few hundred thousand year is a relatively brief period.

Which brings up the other issue, being that evolution, with random variations, is not adequate when you are dealing with drastic ecological shifts...

Since we are dealing with geologic timeframes going back hundreds of millions of years, it's difficult to say just how quickly these changes occurred...

In other words, intermediary species appear as shifts in the physical bodies that are significantly different, doesn't quite apply using Darwin's principles... But since, in our lifetimes, we haven't seen any examples beyond truly minor changes, like changes of color, sight, etc..

So, Darwin's theory contains some problems as it stands... If we allow for the concept of a "collective consciousness", then we can explain these issues requiring refinement.
 
Others have already tried as have I. At this point I'm just sick of the BS. If you really wanted to learn you'd read some real science books.

There's no "awareness" at all. A simple molecule can absorb and emit a photon - even a lone atom can do that, happens all the time. You've taken this animation track of yours past the extremes at this point and moved on to Fantasy Land.

Only in extremely minute and limited systems. Add enough variables and it becomes quite predictable, much like molecules of gas in a sealed beaker.

You haven't tried... All you do is TELL me I'm wrong. But let's test you again, maybe you'll pull through...

At what scale do quantum effects not occur??

Build a wall with bricks and it has the properties of the wall... But look closer and it's built of bricks with the properties of bricks.

The experimental data shows this... Just because macro objects create more restrictions on the extent of quantum effects, does not mean they aren't there, just more subtle.

Where people make the mistake is when they say "you create your own reality"... Partially true, but not consciously, and so it makes the most logical sense that it's the collective conscious that ensures at the collapse that the results are consistent for all.
 
They didn't even manage to get a partial string of DNA, except for adding from the outside.
50 years : 500,000,000 years

I've already shown that nothing as complex as DNA is required for "life", yet you still expect a man to jump full grown out of the ground! Nothing to do but laugh at that. :lol:


Not easy when you can't even recognize the flaws of the materialist position...

And ultimately, it will come to be known that this interpretation is the only possible correct one... (or close to it, far more refined than I am getting)

Hell, I've even shown examples of intelligence down to the single celled organisms, and the defense was that "of course they can solve a maze, it takes just processing 1's and 0's but that doesn't imply intelligence" (close paraphrase)
Every alleged "flaw" was countered and you just ignored them, just as you ignored the explanation from multiple sources for your misinterpretation of quantum effects.

Even a single atom can absorb and emit a photon. "Counting" ones and zeros is nothing and is certainly not a sign of intelligence.


I already explained the mechanism of creative solutions and how that's played out in steps that were more like "leaps" in the refinement of the development of sight.
No "leaps" were required in the development of the camera eye. I suggest you read Nilsson & Pelger (1994):

A Pessimistic Estimate of the Time Required for an Eye to Evolve

(Just one of the articles I chanced across while checking cites from a book I was reading.)


Except its all experimentally been verified...
A QM physicist would get up and walk out on your extended interpretations of QM.


You just don't see them as a paradox...
Because there is no paradox, you've shown no paradox.


I've told you about a dozen different published experiments, inventions, etc...

And what's more, you keep telling me that I'm wrong, but continuously fail to explain why I am wrong and offer a correction.
Many people have tried to set you straight in this thread, including me, and you have rejected all of us out of hand. Why bother to keep up the charade? You don't want to learn.


I am starting to think that you just don't know what is being found in this new science... It truly is wild... I haven't even started talking about superposition, non locality, signalless communication, among all the other principles of quantum physics that have been experimentally verified.
I have been reading science articles and books since high school. (I even asked for and got a subscription to Science News for my 16th birthday, which I kept up for several years.) I like books on particle physics/QM, string theory, some cosmology & space, various other topics on physics (Klauss's biography of Feynman was particularly good reading), evolution & ethnology (mostly Dawkins because I like his writing style), game theory as applied to sociobiology, some anthropology & geology, and various other related articles.


It seems as though you are approaching this topic from a dogmatic position rather than one of true knowledge.
:lamo :lamo :lamo
 
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First you wanted the double slit experiment replicated in macro size, I explained the challenges of that, but explained that there were experiments that have shown it to be the case, and even some technology that is macro objects taking advantage of quantum effects.
We've known for 50 years that the results of quantum experiments can effect the real world or we wouldn't be talking about the double-slit experiments. What you showed was a nice technological trick to digitally harness those results but it really added nothing to the science.
 
You haven't tried... All you do is TELL me I'm wrong. But let's test you again, maybe you'll pull through...

At what scale do quantum effects not occur??
The mathematics shows good approximations of that. Obviously pushing the size up to a molecule required an extreme limitation on the available states of the various particles in that molecule or they wouldn't have had to super-freeze it's environment. Like I said, add enough variables and the effects collapse.


Build a wall with bricks and it has the properties of the wall... But look closer and it's built of bricks with the properties of bricks.

The experimental data shows this... Just because macro objects create more restrictions on the extent of quantum effects, does not mean they aren't there, just more subtle.
Does some quantum tunneling go on inside the moon? Most likely considering the number of particles we're talking about there. Does the moon itself flicker in and out of "existence/vision" when no one is looking? That's just crazy talk. The moon itself creates it's own interference by the sheer number of variables involved in that system. There is no consciousness involved, there is no intelligence involved. It's all just the SOP of the universe.


Where people make the mistake is when they say "you create your own reality"... Partially true, but not consciously, and so it makes the most logical sense that it's the collective conscious that ensures at the collapse that the results are consistent for all.
It's not even partially true and this "collective conscious" you keep babbling on about has no foundation in science at all, nor anyplace else of which I'm aware except maybe religion. Your need to anthropomorphize the universe is beyond rational.
 
50 years : 500,000,000 years

I've already shown that nothing as complex as DNA is required for "life", yet you still expect a man to jump full grown out of the ground! Nothing to do but laugh at that. :lol:

No, but you believe that, just that it requires enough time. It's all chemical reactions, right?? Just needs to stew long enough...


Every alleged "flaw" was countered and you just ignored them, just as you ignored the explanation from multiple sources for your misinterpretation of quantum effects.

Even a single atom can absorb and emit a photon. "Counting" ones and zeros is nothing and is certainly not a sign of intelligence.

At one point the extent of your (and mine) intelligence was only counting to 1.

Low grade intelligence is still intelligence, thanks for the back handed concession.


No "leaps" were required in the development of the camera eye. I suggest you read Nilsson & Pelger (1994):

A Pessimistic Estimate of the Time Required for an Eye to Evolve

(Just one of the articles I chances across while checking cites from a book I'm reading.)

You are just misunderstanding what is meant by "leaps"... I already addressed this point. Especially that I'm not even disputing the process detailed.


A QM physicist would get up and walk out on your extended interpretations of QM.

No, they would attempt to correct areas where I'm wrong, which, based on the interpretations, there may be a debate, but the effects are all shown to provide the most accurate hypothesis ever.


Because there is no paradox, you've shown no paradox.

Yes, I have, that you can't or won't see it is not my problem.

For a cell you need genetic information, and you need a means of processing that information to create life, you need all these things to create life, but one can't really exist without the other.

Just like how the chicken can't exist without the egg, which can't exist without the chicken to lay the egg.


Many people have tried to set you straight in this thread, including me, and you have rejected all of us out of hand. Why bother to keep up the charade? You don't want to learn.

Well, there have been a few legitimate objections, but more on a matter of viewpoint.

Most of them are based off materialist models, and quantum physics is showing that matter does not consist of what we intuitively can see and feel.


I have been reading science articles and books since high school. (I even asked for and got a subscription to Science News for my 16th birthday, which I kept up for several years.) I like books on particle physics/QM, string theory, some cosmology & space, various other topics on physics (Klauss's biography of Feynman was particularly good reading), evolution & ethnology (mostly Dawkins because I like his writing style), game theory as applied to sociobiology, some anthropology & geology, and various other related articles.


:lamo :lamo :lamo[/QUOTE]

Then stop pretending to be so oblivious.
 
No, but you believe that, just that it requires enough time. It's all chemical reactions, right?? Just needs to stew long enough...
It is all chemical reactions and our knowledge of chemistry, while far above a century ago, is still rather lacking.


At one point the extent of your (and mine) intelligence was only counting to 1.

Low grade intelligence is still intelligence, thanks for the back handed concession.
When you define an electron as intelligent you've gone beyond rational. There was no concession though I'm sure your delusions insist there was.


You are just misunderstanding what is meant by "leaps"... I already addressed this point. Especially that I'm not even disputing the process detailed.
Then you're not describing it very well or (most likely) you're adding a bunch of other BS into it that is incorrect.

It doesn't take conscious or intelligent guidance of any kind for a camera eye to develop.


Yes, I have, that you can't or won't see it is not my problem.

For a cell you need genetic information, and you need a means of processing that information to create life, you need all these things to create life, but one can't really exist without the other.
Evolution of (non-living) replicators has already been proved as has the formation of the basic building blocks of modern replicators, like RNA and DNA, from nothing more than the chemicals we think existed on Earth for hundreds of millions of years.


Just like how the chicken can't exist without the egg, which can't exist without the chicken to lay the egg.
The egg came first - I've already said that and evolution backs up that claim. As usual, you ignored the counter and continue to assert that tired and false paradox. Try again.


Well, there have been a few legitimate objections, but more on a matter of viewpoint.
A legend on your own mind? There have been plenty of valid counters to your wild ideals. You refused and continue to refuse to acknowledge them - just as the chicken and egg above, which was already asked and answered.


Most of them are based off materialist models, and quantum physics is showing that matter does not consist of what we intuitively can see and feel.
When we first realized that atoms were mostly space we knew that our "intuitive" perception of the world was an illusion. It didn't take QM to show that.

This further points out the weakness of your understanding of physics and the world around us. Do your homework before you make up more stories about how you think the world must work.


Then stop pretending to be so oblivious.
I'm not the one making up definitions to suit my purposes and interpreting physical laws as some extension of intelligence and/or consciousness. Nobody else here is doing that but you. If anyone is pretending then we all know who it is.
 
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No, they would attempt to correct areas where I'm wrong, which, based on the interpretations, there may be a debate, but the effects are all shown to provide the most accurate hypothesis ever.
The only time they might attempt to correct your multiple errors is if you were paying them to teach you - and even college professors expect you to do your homework. This isn't elementary school anymore. No one wants to teach you the basics when you should be learning those on your own. There are plenty of good science books out there and I've even named a few in this thread as have others.
 
This is more of a case of extinction, of failure of a particular "survival strategy", in all likelihood, the squirrels would maintain the genetics to allow them to reproduce brown squirrels.

The point I'm making is more like how there are simple organisms, then over a relatively short period there is the Cambrian explosion... Then theres a period of hundreds of millions of years where there are little changes, then the next era where most of what existed in the Cambrian disappears with a wide variety of species that are mostly all vastly different, with another period of relative evolutionary stability.

So, the point is that while there are periods where there are genetic changes and adaptation, but then there are periods where the environment changes and without a huge change, most species died off...



Ok, well, when we are talking about periods ranging in the hundreds of millions of years, a few hundred thousand year is a relatively brief period.

Which brings up the other issue, being that evolution, with random variations, is not adequate when you are dealing with drastic ecological shifts...

Since we are dealing with geologic timeframes going back hundreds of millions of years, it's difficult to say just how quickly these changes occurred...

In other words, intermediary species appear as shifts in the physical bodies that are significantly different, doesn't quite apply using Darwin's principles... But since, in our lifetimes, we haven't seen any examples beyond truly minor changes, like changes of color, sight, etc..

So, Darwin's theory contains some problems as it stands... If we allow for the concept of a "collective consciousness", then we can explain these issues requiring refinement.

I'm not sure if you're deflecting, or if we're still talking past one another. I'll give you the benefit f the doubt and move on.

The point of the squirrel example is not to debate the evolution of squirrels, but to explain that evolution is not always reactionary process. It is often a function or environmental changes and how they affect an organism. If the change is harmful to the point of potential extinction from the environment causing harm over a short period, then the only way an organism will survive is to have a portion of the population that is already able to cope, or that a portion of the population of that organism lives outside the environment in question. People didn't "adapt" to the plague. The only survivors were either genetically adapted to dealing with it already, or unexposed.

There are cases where the changes in an environment aren't harmful enough to to cause extinction, but the change is so significant that adaptation occurs because it simply provides an advantage. An example might be Flavobacterium that developed a gene for synthesizing nylon (Negoro, S., Biodegradation of nylon oligomers (2000), Appl. Microbiol. Biotechnol. 54, 461-466.). The nylon present in the environment wasn't directly harmful, but may have displaced the bacterium's food source. I said "might be" to describe the adaptations timing because no one knows if the change happened before or after the change to their environment.

To your other point, I'd say that synthesizing a gene to hydrolysing nylon is pretty significant and considering that nylon didn't exist in the environment prior to about 1930 but was discovered just 45 years later is a significant change that happened fast enough for you to see.

In regards to the Cambrian "explosion". I'd be willing to "duel" in sources with you. Mine say that, while the exact length of the Cambrian isn't fully known, the full range of estimates I've seen put it between 10-60 million years with 40 million being the most common, though I admit I have no "hard" evidence for the "most common" 40 million year claim, that's just an anecdotal claim on my part based on my experience.

Some notes I've collected from the web from similar discussions I've had (many with references)....

There are some plausible explanations for why diversification may have been relatively sudden during the Cambrian:

The evolution of active predators in the late Precambrian likely spurred the coevolution of hard parts on other animals. These hard parts fossilize much more easily than the previous soft-bodied animals, leading to many more fossils but not necessarily more animals.

Early complex animals may have been nearly microscopic. Apparent fossil animals smaller than 0.2 mm have been found in the Doushantuo Formation, China, forty to fifty-five million years before the Cambrian (Chen et al. 2004). Much of the early evolution could have simply been too small to see.

The earth was just coming out of a global ice age at the beginning of the Cambrian (Hoffman 1998; Kerr 2000). A "snowball earth" before the Cambrian explosion may have hindered development of complexity or kept populations down so that fossils would be too rare to expect to find today. The more favorable environment after the snowball earth would have opened new niches for life to evolve into.

Hox genes, which control much of an animal's basic body plan, were likely first evolving around that time. Development of these genes might have just then allowed the raw materials for body plans to diversify (Carroll 1997).

Atmospheric oxygen may have increased at the start of the Cambrian (Canfield and Teske 1996; Logan et al. 1995; Thomas 1997).

Planktonic grazers began producing fecal pellets that fell to the bottom of the ocean rapidly, profoundly changing the ocean state, especially its oxygenation (Logan et al. 1995).

Unusual amounts of phosphate were deposited in shallow seas at the start of the Cambrian (Cook and Shergold 1986; Lipps and Signor 1992)

Major radiations of life forms have occurred at other times, too. One of the most extensive diversifications of life occurred in the Ordovician, for example.

Having said that, It sounds to me like you said something akin to, "well there hasn't been much adaptation in the last 500 years (about the time modern science has existed, with 99% of what we've discovered taking place in the last 100 years) so evolution doesn't exist the way the textbooks say.

I'd reply by saying you look MUCH different than you did from when you were 10, but if there was a picture taken of you every day, there wouldn't be a singe picture taken that anyone could look at just one day forward or one day backward that would look significantly different. No single picture that shows that you've changed from a boy to an adolescent to an adult... Does that mean you haven't changed between 10 years old an now?
 
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I'm not sure if you're deflecting, or if we're still talking past one another. I'll give you the benefit f the doubt and move on.

Sorry, was not my intention...

I've been put a bit on the defensive.

Frankly, I'm not disputing evolution as a process, and Darwin remains reasonably accurate in terms of the material process, but it does not explain all the data.

The point of the squirrel example is not to debate the evolution of squirrels, but to explain that evolution is not always reactionary process. It is often a function or environmental changes and how they affect an organism. If the change is harmful to the point of potential extinction from the environment causing harm over a short period, then the only way an organism will survive is to have a portion of the population that is already able to cope, or that a portion of the population of that organism lives outside the environment in question. People didn't "adapt" to the plague. The only survivors were either genetically adapted to dealing with it already, or unexposed.

There are cases where the changes in an environment aren't harmful enough to to cause extinction, but the change is so significant that adaptation occurs because it simply provides an advantage. An example might be Flavobacterium that developed a gene for synthesizing nylon (Negoro, S., Biodegradation of nylon oligomers (2000), Appl. Microbiol. Biotechnol. 54, 461-466.). The nylon present in the environment wasn't directly harmful, but may have displaced the bacterium's food source. I said "might be" to describe the adaptations timing because no one knows if the change happened before or after the change to their environment.

I am familiar with that one, and this does still bring up the element of creativity... If its because of the displacement of food sources, then the bacteria came to a "solution" of figuring out how to metabolize the plastic, or it had previously come to a solution of how to handle lack of food, by metabolizing whatever is around...

To your other point, I'd say that synthesizing a gene to hydrolysing nylon is pretty significant and considering that nylon didn't exist in the environment prior to about 1930 but was discovered just 45 years later is a significant change that happened fast enough for you to see.

You could also add how bacteria are becoming immune to antibiotics, and yes these are significant, especially against the creationist argument (specifically the YEC)


In regards to the Cambrian "explosion". I'd be willing to "duel" in sources with you. Mine say that, while the exact length of the Cambrian isn't fully known, the full range of estimates I've seen put it between 10-60 million years with 40 million being the most common, though I admit I have no "hard" evidence for the "most common" 40 million year claim, that's just an anecdotal claim on my part based on my experience.

Some notes I've collected from the web from similar discussions I've had (many with references)....

I'm not that attached to the specific dates, the different epochs have a range from tens of millions to hundreds of millions of years, with relatively short periods of transition time in between...

There are some plausible explanations for why diversification may have been relatively sudden during the Cambrian:

The evolution of active predators in the late Precambrian likely spurred the coevolution of hard parts on other animals. These hard parts fossilize much more easily than the previous soft-bodied animals, leading to many more fossils but not necessarily more animals.

Early complex animals may have been nearly microscopic. Apparent fossil animals smaller than 0.2 mm have been found in the Doushantuo Formation, China, forty to fifty-five million years before the Cambrian (Chen et al. 2004). Much of the early evolution could have simply been too small to see.

The earth was just coming out of a global ice age at the beginning of the Cambrian (Hoffman 1998; Kerr 2000). A "snowball earth" before the Cambrian explosion may have hindered development of complexity or kept populations down so that fossils would be too rare to expect to find today. The more favorable environment after the snowball earth would have opened new niches for life to evolve into.

Hox genes, which control much of an animal's basic body plan, were likely first evolving around that time. Development of these genes might have just then allowed the raw materials for body plans to diversify (Carroll 1997).

Atmospheric oxygen may have increased at the start of the Cambrian (Canfield and Teske 1996; Logan et al. 1995; Thomas 1997).

Planktonic grazers began producing fecal pellets that fell to the bottom of the ocean rapidly, profoundly changing the ocean state, especially its oxygenation (Logan et al. 1995).

Unusual amounts of phosphate were deposited in shallow seas at the start of the Cambrian (Cook and Shergold 1986; Lipps and Signor 1992)

Major radiations of life forms have occurred at other times, too. One of the most extensive diversifications of life occurred in the Ordovician, for example.

The Cambrian was the focus more because of the wide variety of changes that occurred, and your sources are perfectly viable hypothesis on the "why", what I am looking for is the more general of the "how" such wide variations occurred... Since the theory of gradual generational genetic variation through successful reproduction seems to be violated in these, relatively brief and sporadic time periods.

Having said that, It sounds to me like you said something akin to, "well there hasn't been much adaptation in the last 500 years (about the time modern science has existed, with 99% of what we've discovered taking place in the last 100 years) so evolution doesn't exist the way the textbooks say.

I'd reply by saying you look MUCH different than you did from when you were 10, but if there was a picture taken of you every day, there wouldn't be a singe picture taken that anyone could look at just one day forward or one day backward that would look significantly different. The picture that shows that you've changed from a boy to an adolescent to an adult... Does that mean you haven't changed between 10 years old an now?

I assure you that I'm not a creationist in that sense...

Thanks for the analogy, I think this can put us in the same page... Now, for the moment take evolution as aging (which given the randomness of genetic variations, aging would not be appropriate either, since randomness and direction are not really compatible concepts, but still useful). If your theory of aging is this gradual growth, it works from 1-10 and from 18-50 (give or take), then you look at the period from 10-18 and not only do you see this growth, but you see "extras" like an increase in hair, an increase in smell, etc... The theory of growth remains valid, but requires refinement to compensate for those other changes (puberty is obviously explained but for the purpose here)...
 
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