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Moral Dilemma's. How do you handle them?

See you are letting your collectivist thinking taint your hypothetical. It shouldn't be "we"-- it should be "you".

Oh please. You're getting distracted with nuance. Yes...I'm using WE. As in those that work for this country of We the People, and do the work in the name of US to keep US safe. We capture a terrorist and we interrogate him to stop the bomb from going off. We go to war and we have elections. If that's collectivist to you, I'd suggest you put down the Ayn Rand books and get over it and simply deal with the question. It has to do with your own moral compass. Not mine or the "collective" view of the people. Ok??
 
So there is no suffering in your town? might want to start searching basements for a kid. he is bound to be there somewhere :mrgreen:

You're avoiding the question. My town is not exactly the Idyllic city in the story. So clearly nobody is being kept in a dungeon in order for the skies to be perfect, the days to always be prosperous, life to be a bowl of cherries. So we don't have those issues.
 
Moral Dilemma #3.

The ticking time bomb.

You all know the scenario. We capture a suspected terrorist. We know about a bomb that is going to go off and kill hundreds or maybe even thousands of innocent people. Do we claim that torture is justified if it means saving lives. If we do, then do we torture the suspected terrorist to prevent the bomb from going off?

We are saying that it's ok to torture a person if it means that it will save hundreds or thousands of lives.

Ok. If that's true...then what difference does it make who gets tortured as long as we can act in time to stop the bomb and save those lives.

Suppose instead of torturing the suspect, we also grab his 7 year old daughter. We tell the suspect that we will remove her fingers one at a time unless he talks.

If using torture in order to prevent a bomb from killing people is justified, then why does it make any difference who gets tortured as long as the bomb is stopped from going off? Would it be acceptable to torture the little girl if it means that it would save hundreds or thousands of lives? Her innocence doesn't matter here. What matters is a basic question of sacrificing one person to save hundreds, and if torturing her accomplishes that task, is it not justifiable.

Torturing the terrorist or removing his daughters fingers is morally bankrupt behavior.
 
The city of happiness

The city of happiness
The story (“The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas”) tells of a city called Omelas—a city of happiness and civic celebration, a place without kings or slaves, without advertisements or a stock exchange, a place without the atomic bomb. Lest we find this place too unrealistic to imagine, the author tells us one more thing about it: “In a basement under one of the beautiful public buildings of Omelas, or perhaps in the cellar of one of its spacious private homes, there is a room. It has one locked door, and no window.” And in this room sits a child. The child is feeble-minded, malnourished, and neglected. It lives out its days in wretched misery.

They all know it is there, all the people of Omelas . . . They all know that it has to be there . . . They all understand that their happiness, the beauty of their city, the tenderness of their friendships, the health of their children, . . . even the abundance of their harvest and the kindly weathers of their skies, depend wholly on this child’s abominable misery. . . . If the child were brought up into the sunlight out of the vile place, if it were cleaned and fed and comforted, that would be a good thing, indeed; but if it were done, in that day and hour all the prosperity and beauty and delight of Omelas would wither and be destroyed. Those are the terms.

Are those terms morally acceptable?

I've thought about this for awhile, and I think it depends entirely on the degree of the decline of the standard of living by people in Omelas. If letting the kid go would only say slightly decrease the internet speed of the people of Omelas than it is obviously morally wrong not to free the kid. If on the other hand, freeing the kid would cause the thousands of people of Omelas to have their lives turned into living hells, each of them feeling the maximum amount of pain possible while still remaining sane? It seems to me that freeing the child would be obviously immoral.

There's a line somewhere, and I couldn't tell you where it is. It reminds me of the sorites paradox about gradually removing grains of sand from a million grain pile until it is no longer a heap. It's easy to tell what is right on the extremes and harder or impossible in-between.
 
I've thought about this for awhile, and I think it depends entirely on the degree of the decline of the standard of living by people in Omelas. If letting the kid go would only say slightly decrease the internet speed of the people of Omelas than it is obviously morally wrong not to free the kid. If on the other hand, freeing the kid would cause the thousands of people of Omelas to have their lives turned into living hells, each of them feeling the maximum amount of pain possible while still remaining sane? It seems to me that freeing the child would be obviously immoral.

There's a line somewhere, and I couldn't tell you where it is. It reminds me of the sorites paradox about gradually removing grains of sand from a million grain pile until it is no longer a heap. It's easy to tell what is right on the extremes and harder or impossible in-between.

I don't believe there is a line. The town acted on the child unjustly and to restore justice the only course of action is free the child. No one has a right to a certain quality of life and when you gained that quality of life through violating the rights of someone else there is no question that you have no right to it.
 
I don't believe there is a line. The town acted on the child unjustly and to restore justice the only course of action is free the child. No one has a right to a certain quality of life and when you gained that quality of life through violating the rights of someone else there is no question that you have no right to it.

Fair enough.
 
Both would side with keeping the child imprisoned and for pretty much the same reason.



To free the child is to restore his liberty that was robbed from him when he was imprisoned against his will. According to you this would cause the quality of life for the group to be decreased. However, by all accounts since they gained this quality of life by violating the rights of the child through an act of aggression to restore justice the right course of action is to take this increased quality of life from them and restore his liberty. Let's us keep in mind that no one has a right to quality of life and so regardless of my choice here they have no rights in the equation.

In the later example I'm the party forced to be in the position of someone that must take the life of someone else. If I must act on the rights of another person it is paramount I act on as few people as possible.

Ok...pretty nice answers. I'd probably agree with that reasoning. The quality of life is not a right. Nor should one child's rights be compromised to provide a quality of life for the population. Maybe they need to learn to live with less, so that the child can live a normal life where he sees the sun.

The train situation is a tough call because the addition of a child pulls at us differently. In the original version, it's just another person on the tracks. It seems easier to make that call and say, take out the one, to save the five. When it's a child, if our morality is consistent, it shouldn't matter.
 
Oh please. You're getting distracted with nuance. Yes...I'm using WE. As in those that work for this country of We the People, and do the work in the name of US to keep US safe. We capture a terrorist and we interrogate him to stop the bomb from going off. We go to war and we have elections. If that's collectivist to you, I'd suggest you put down the Ayn Rand books and get over it and simply deal with the question. It has to do with your own moral compass. Not mine or the "collective" view of the people. Ok??

you are the one who said the thread was about our individual morality and now you have morphed it into a group morality of We The People. I am not the one being distracted by nuance. Which it--are we talking about individual morality or social morality? There is a world of difference between would you torture a terrorist and would you be morally upset if somebody who is willing to torture a terrorist tortured a terrorist.
 
Torturing the terrorist or removing his daughters fingers is morally bankrupt behavior.

I'm with you. That's going to cause a problem with those that think we should sacrifice one life for the safety of the many. For one thing the guy is just a suspect, but the other thing is that his daughter is innocent. But...if the moral thing to do from the Utilitarian consequentialist morality perspective is to do what in the best interest of the greatest number, then it shouldn't matter if we torture the girl as long as we save hundreds of lives in the process. I remember this argument being made by the Fox News bunch that saw Jack Bauer as a hero. We should torture and waterboard people to extract information. What would they make of this?
 
Moral Dilemma #3.

The ticking time bomb.

You all know the scenario. We capture a suspected terrorist. We know about a bomb that is going to go off and kill hundreds or maybe even thousands of innocent people. Do we claim that torture is justified if it means saving lives. If we do, then do we torture the suspected terrorist to prevent the bomb from going off?

We are saying that it's ok to torture a person if it means that it will save hundreds or thousands of lives.

Ok. If that's true...then what difference does it make who gets tortured as long as we can act in time to stop the bomb and save those lives.

Suppose instead of torturing the suspect, we also grab his 7 year old daughter. We tell the suspect that we will remove her fingers one at a time unless he talks.

If using torture in order to prevent a bomb from killing people is justified, then why does it make any difference who gets tortured as long as the bomb is stopped from going off? Would it be acceptable to torture the little girl if it means that it would save hundreds or thousands of lives? Her innocence doesn't matter here. What matters is a basic question of sacrificing one person to save hundreds, and if torturing her accomplishes that task, is it not justifiable.

Here I'm again going to say there's a line somewhere that justifies either of them. I would not pretend to know know where that is. I'm certainly glad to never be in one of these scenarios.
 
I've thought about this for awhile, and I think it depends entirely on the degree of the decline of the standard of living by people in Omelas. If letting the kid go would only say slightly decrease the internet speed of the people of Omelas than it is obviously morally wrong not to free the kid. If on the other hand, freeing the kid would cause the thousands of people of Omelas to have their lives turned into living hells, each of them feeling the maximum amount of pain possible while still remaining sane? It seems to me that freeing the child would be obviously immoral.

There's a line somewhere, and I couldn't tell you where it is. It reminds me of the sorites paradox about gradually removing grains of sand from a million grain pile until it is no longer a heap. It's easy to tell what is right on the extremes and harder or impossible in-between.

I think it depends entirely on the degree of the decline of the standard of living by people in Omelas.

Well, there's no way of knowing that. And now your basing this kids freedom from suffering on some degree of the standard of living. Why should that matter if individual liberty is something that actually matters? What is the price for that in terms of the arbitrary standard of living. How much are you willing to give up, so that this kid can have the freedom and liberty that you enjoy?

It seems to me that freeing the child would be obviously immoral.

So it's better to keep this kid in a life of misery, so that nobody else has to live that way? consequentialist morality. That's very Utilitarian. Bentham would approve.

There's a line somewhere, and I couldn't tell you where it is.

That's the object here. Locate that point and ask why it should be there? What is the basis for putting it there? What is our morality based on. If it's not based on anything, then it's just arbitrary and totally inconsistent. That's bound to lead to hypocrisy at some point. How do we live up to our own standards of where that line is drawn?
 
Well, there's no way of knowing that. And now your basing this kids freedom from suffering on some degree of the standard of living. Why should that matter if individual liberty is something that actually matters? What is the price for that in terms of the arbitrary standard of living. How much are you willing to give up, so that this kid can have the freedom and liberty that you enjoy?

I don't know what the price is, but somewhere there is a line.


So it's better to keep this kid in a life of misery, so that nobody else has to live that way? consequentialist morality. That's very Utilitarian. Bentham would approve.

Basically. I wouldn't consider myself completely utilitarian since I don't believe entirely in the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

That's the object here. Locate that point and ask why it should be there? What is the basis for putting it there? What is our morality based on. If it's not based on anything, then it's just arbitrary and totally inconsistent. That's bound to lead to hypocrisy at some point. How do we live up to our own standards of where that line is drawn?
[/QUOTE]

I don't think the point can be definitively located in every situation. We have to make choices, and use are best guesses, and I do believe that there is some objective answer out there somewhere, but not necessarily that we can know it for every situation.
 
you are the one who said the thread was about our individual morality and now you have morphed it into a group morality of We The People. I am not the one being distracted by nuance. Which it--are we talking about individual morality or social morality? There is a world of difference between would you torture a terrorist and would you be morally upset if somebody who is willing to torture a terrorist tortured a terrorist.

Fisher, why is it that you're the only person having a problem with this?:roll: This is about YOUR moral perspective. How you manage to influence society with YOUR moral view is another subject. I really don't care about that. What you should know is that from the Utilitarian view point, YOUR moral view is not relevant. All that matters is utitlity. What produces the best results for the greatest number of people. Your moral view may agree with that, and place morality within that utilitarian view of consequentialist morality. Consequentialist Moral Reasoning. Locates morality in the consequences of an act. Catagorical Moral Reasoning. – locates morality in certain duties and rights. What is of interest here is where is YOUR moral compass?

With regard to the terrorist, do you or do you not approve of the torture to prevent the bomb from going off? I'm not asking if YOU would do the honors. I'm asking if you would approve of it regardless of who gets tortured as long as the bomb is prevented.
 
Here I'm again going to say there's a line somewhere that justifies either of them. I would not pretend to know know where that is. I'm certainly glad to never be in one of these scenarios.

Would you consider torturing the girl to save the people? It seems like you'd consider it.
 
Would you consider torturing the girl to save the people? It seems like you'd consider it.

Like I said it depends. If cutting off one finger had a 100% chance of saving 100 quadrillion people than I'd probably be okay with it. If it had a .0000000000001% chance of saving a single person, than her personal liberty is worth way more than that. I can't draw the line for you exactly where I believe it would be right and where it would be wrong.
 
I don't know what the price is, but somewhere there is a line.




Basically. I wouldn't consider myself completely utilitarian since I don't believe entirely in the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

I don't think the point can be definitively located in every situation. We have to make choices, and use are best guesses, and I do believe that there is some objective answer out there somewhere, but not necessarily that we can know it for every situation.[/QUOTE]


Interesting. I think you actually lean more toward a Catagorical Moral Reasoning. I do think that there is an objective truth but we can't ever see it in it's entirety. We get glimpses of it now and then, especially when we are confronted with situations like these.

Consequences of Utilitarianism – Bentham
The right thing to do, the just thing to do, is to maximize utility.
Utility = the balance of pleasure over pain, happiness over suffering. All of us are governed by two masters: Pain and Pleasure. We human beings like pleasure, and dislike pain. The right thing to do individually or collectively is to maximize the over-all level of happiness. “The greatest good for the greatest number”

That's utilitarianism. That's Jeremy Bentham.

I think we can know this when we take an action. Is it in the best interest of the greatest number? Or we can look at another view that Kant had which was To act freely is not to choose the best means to a given end. Choose the end itself for its own sake. When we act as Means, to the realization of ends outside us, we are instruments rather than authors of the purposes we pursue. That is the Heteronomous determination of the will. When we act autonomously, according to a law we give ourselves, we cease to be instruments for purposes outside us, and we do something for its own sake. We become Ends in ourselves. This capacity to act freely is what gives life it’s special dignity. Respecting human dignity means regarding persons not just as means, but also as ends in themselves. This is why it’s wrong to use people for the sake of other peoples well- being or happiness. This is why Utilitarianism goes wrong. It’s the reason why it’s important to respect persons and uphold their rights.

There is a story of a young boy who goes to the corner store to buy some bread. The store owner knows that he could short change the young kid and he'd never know it. But he doesn't do it. He gives the kid the correct change. His reason is that if it got around that he'd cheated the kid, he'd lose customers as a result, so he gives that kid the right change. But there is no moral worth to what he did. He doesn't respect that kid, and is merely using him to keep his business going. He should simply give the kid the right change because that's the right thing to do. That's where he finds moral worth.
 
Consequences of Utilitarianism – Bentham
The right thing to do, the just thing to do, is to maximize utility.
Utility = the balance of pleasure over pain, happiness over suffering. All of us are governed by two masters: Pain and Pleasure. We human beings like pleasure, and dislike pain. The right thing to do individually or collectively is to maximize the over-all level of happiness. “The greatest good for the greatest number”

That's utilitarianism. That's Jeremy Bentham.

Yep. I don't follow that exactly. There's more to what's right than whether it brings pain or pleasure.
I think we can know this when we take an action. Is it in the best interest of the greatest number? Or we can look at another view that Kant had which was To act freely is not to choose the best means to a given end. Choose the end itself for its own sake. When we act as Means, to the realization of ends outside us, we are instruments rather than authors of the purposes we pursue. That is the Heteronomous determination of the will. When we act autonomously, according to a law we give ourselves, we cease to be instruments for purposes outside us, and we do something for its own sake. We become Ends in ourselves. This capacity to act freely is what gives life it’s special dignity. Respecting human dignity means regarding persons not just as means, but also as ends in themselves. This is why it’s wrong to use people for the sake of other peoples well- being or happiness. This is why Utilitarianism goes wrong. It’s the reason why it’s important to respect persons and uphold their rights.

I do agree with Kant somewhat here. I see a lot value in seeing people as ends in themselves and upholding their rights. I see negative value in using people simply as mere means. But I don't see it as ultimate value that cannot be overcome. In our everyday lives I don't see it being overcome often, if ever, but in these hypothetical scenarios I can imagine times when the negative value of not using a person merely as a means is overcome by the otherwise goodness of the action.
 
The city of happiness

The city of happiness
The story (“The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas”) tells of a city called Omelas—a city of happiness and civic celebration, a place without kings or slaves, without advertisements or a stock exchange, a place without the atomic bomb. Lest we find this place too unrealistic to imagine, the author tells us one more thing about it: “In a basement under one of the beautiful public buildings of Omelas, or perhaps in the cellar of one of its spacious private homes, there is a room. It has one locked door, and no window.” And in this room sits a child. The child is feeble-minded, malnourished, and neglected. It lives out its days in wretched misery.

They all know it is there, all the people of Omelas . . . They all know that it has to be there . . . They all understand that their happiness, the beauty of their city, the tenderness of their friendships, the health of their children, . . . even the abundance of their harvest and the kindly weathers of their skies, depend wholly on this child’s abominable misery. . . . If the child were brought up into the sunlight out of the vile place, if it were cleaned and fed and comforted, that would be a good thing, indeed; but if it were done, in that day and hour all the prosperity and beauty and delight of Omelas would wither and be destroyed. Those are the terms.

Are those terms morally acceptable?

I can't bring myself to honestly debate that - the fat man and the rail road track is a little less cumbersome. . . because I want to ask how in the hell is the kids making any of that happen and just what hell is unleashed when the little devil's let out of the cage?

See = I'm suspicious and not quite in the same universe.
 
Couple of comments.

Example 1.
The story (“The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas”) tells of a city called Omelas—a city of happiness and civic celebration, a place without kings or slaves, without advertisements or a stock exchange, a place without the atomic bomb
For someone who does not particularly value the absence of those things in and of themselves, there isn't much of a dilemma, but I see where you are going.

You are attempting to set up a scenario using absolutes. Absolute happiness for the many versus absolute misery for the individual.
This is useful for establishing a logical framework for further debate. Argumentam ad absurdum.

Let's try to see what happens if we change some variables in the equation.
What if we slightly inconvenience the individual in order to slightly better the lives of the many?
Or what if we moderately inconvenience a third of the population in order to moderately improve the lives of the remainnig two thirds?

In real life this could equate to whether we should impose extra taxes on the top X% in order to pay for extra welfare for the bottom Y%, no?
Or if we should kill the single whistleblower to maintain national security.
Or for establishing acceptable loss ratios for collateral damage when bombing a Taliban position in the middle of a village.


Moral Dilemma #2.
You're driving a train. Suddenly you have no brakes. Up ahead you see 5 workman on the tracks. The Whistle doesn't work. The only thing you can do is steer slightly. As you look, you can also see a side track which you could steer onto, but there is a person on that track as well. You have a decision that you must make now. Do you veer off to the side track knowing that you'll kill one person instead of 5? Or do you stay the course and kill the 5 workmen, saving the one?
Depends who the 6 people are.
If the one person on the sidetrack was my child, I would kill the 5 without hesitating, then take a whizz on their remains just to demonstrate that I found the implied dilemma insulting.
If it was my elderly aunt who has terminal cancer and two weeks left to live, I would probably hesistate a bit then run her down, and then cry a bit over life's unfairness and the fact that my consins were about to kick my ass sometime in the immediate future.

It is the same dilemma; the good of the many versus the few. But again, as soon as you introduce relevant circumstance, the scenario changes.
Personal preference as well as personal impact plays a role for the person making the decision.

Going back to example #1.
A libertarian would probably release the child and let the chips fall where they may, whereas a social democrat would keep it imprisoned. But what if it was your own child? Or not a child at all, but Hitler instead?

Or example #3.
Would you torture the guilty to avoid a nuclear terror attack? His family? A random person? Your neighbour?
Or would you torture them just a teensy tiny little bit (aka waterboarding)? Or withhold chocolate rations?
Or what if it wasn't a question of nuclear weapons, but of a regular old suicide bomb that would "merely" kill 20 people? Or cause the Coca Cola company to suffer a quarterly deficit?

Moral imperatives tend to become a bit fuzzy when you remove the absolutes, and tend to devolve into utilitarianism. But utilitariansim is individual.

My thought is that your exercise is useful for getting to know oneself better, but as regards the application of concrete principles in real life, it is a bit less relevant.
 
The city of happiness

The city of happiness
The story (“The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas”) tells of a city called Omelas—a city of happiness and civic celebration, a place without kings or slaves, without advertisements or a stock exchange, a place without the atomic bomb. Lest we find this place too unrealistic to imagine, the author tells us one more thing about it: “In a basement under one of the beautiful public buildings of Omelas, or perhaps in the cellar of one of its spacious private homes, there is a room. It has one locked door, and no window.” And in this room sits a child. The child is feeble-minded, malnourished, and neglected. It lives out its days in wretched misery.

They all know it is there, all the people of Omelas . . . They all know that it has to be there . . . They all understand that their happiness, the beauty of their city, the tenderness of their friendships, the health of their children, . . . even the abundance of their harvest and the kindly weathers of their skies, depend wholly on this child’s abominable misery. . . . If the child were brought up into the sunlight out of the vile place, if it were cleaned and fed and comforted, that would be a good thing, indeed; but if it were done, in that day and hour all the prosperity and beauty and delight of Omelas would wither and be destroyed. Those are the terms.

Are those terms morally acceptable?

I would say yes. In a normal city there will be violence and poverty. There will be hundreds, or thousands of malnourished and neglected children living out their days in misery. One is far better.
 
Moral Dilemma #2.


You're driving a train. Suddenly you have no brakes. Up ahead you see 5 workman on the tracks. The Whistle doesn't work. The only thing you can do is steer slightly. As you look, you can also see a side track which you could steer onto, but there is a person on that track as well. You have a decision that you must make now. Do you veer off to the side track knowing that you'll kill one person instead of 5? Or do you stay the course and kill the 5 workmen, saving the one?

If you're a utilitarian you would do what's in the best interests of the greatest number. You maximize pleasure over pain. There is more utility in taking out the one in order to save the five. So that is the morally correct decision.


Now...suppose the person on the side track is an 8 year old boy? Do you still take him out to save the greatest number? Does it matter who he is or how old he is? Morally speaking, isn't it better to save 5 over 1? If you are morally consistent with the idea that you save the most people, even if you have to sacrifice one life, then you kill the kid.

The train has no emergency brakes, but I can somehow steer it? What kind of magic train is this?

In the first scenario, I kill the one guy to save the 5. Someone's going to die regardless, and fewer people dying is better.

The second scenario is quite a bit harder to judge. Like most people in our society, I tend to place a higher value on the lives of children vs adults. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do.
 
What if that one person on the side track was a 6 year old child? Would that change your view?
No.

The only thing that might change my mind is the age/health of the 5 people. If they're old or terminal and the one is young and healthy then the group is the obvious choice.
 
And here it goes. We're looking for consistency here. Mr. Invisible's morality is inconsistent. It's whimsical. If it were indeed consistent then it should hold up under every condition. So the question is what is that kind of morality based on? His true instinct is to free the child, and I suspect it's because he feels that the child's individual rights matter. But in the second instance he is opting to take the Utilitarian position of doing what's in the interest of the greater number. Save the five at the expense of the one. Does the kids rights matter any less under these circumstances? Why should the kids rights have any less meaning because in one case it's kept in a dungeon, and in the other it's walking on the tracks? Are rights dependent on such things?
The difference is what you've written, the kid is kept in one scenario and is (presumably) just in the wrong place/wrong time in the second. I certainly didn't put the kid on the tracks since I'm driving the trolley.
 
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Well the terms may not be morally acceptable, but those are the conditions. You answer that NO, keeping the kid in the dungeon is not acceptable. Clearly his individual rights aren't being addressed. In the train scenario, you have to make another choice and because no matter what choice you make...somebody dies. You answered no. It would not make a difference. You'd allow the train to hit him and save the 5. Do the Childs rights matter any less whether he's in a dungeon, or walking on the tracks? If his rights are a deciding factor in freeing the child, why are his rights any less for walking on the track? You aren't as interested in the effects his freedom will have on the entire population of the city, as you are in the lives of the 5 workman that you're willing to save by knowingly killing a kid.

Actually, I answered no your question of if the person on the train tracks was a child, would it stop me from running over them. This could clearly me seen if you had read the entire post, including the quotes, which were both from you
 
That would be the utilitarian viewpoint. Greatest good for the greatest number. I wonder how far people might be willing to take that.
I have found that the best solutions seldom lie at the extremes.
 
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