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Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Denied

Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
Nope. It's not her fault that the category is titled as such.
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It's her fault for lying about her answer and being told she has to show proof. It's kinda the OPs fault for starting a dishonest thread implying she was forced to join a religion to gain citizenship. She was not. She was told to show proof of her claim.
 
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Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

VanceMack said:
It's her fault for lying about her answer and being told she has to show proof. It's kinda the OPs fault for starting a dishonest thread implying she was forced to join a religion to gain citizenship. She was not. She was told to show proof of her claim.
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Well, they are telling her to join a church and get a note from the church. That sounds like forcing her to join a religion to me. Besides, religious reasons doesn't necessarily imply you're part of a religion. She holds to her antiwar stance religiously.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
Well, they are telling her to join a church and get a note from the church. That sounds like forcing her to join a religion to me.
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No, they are telling her to prove her claim. That only sounds like being forced to join a religion to you because it fits your argument that athiests are being persecuted. How dare they read her application and expect her to give proof of her own words... :roll:
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

VanceMack said:
No, they are telling her to prove her claim. That only sounds like being forced to join a religion to you because it fits your argument that athiests are being persecuted. How dare they read her application and expect her to give proof of her own words... :roll:
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Read my edits. You don't have to belong to a church to hold to some belief religiously.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

I should note that I'd have no problem with her being required to show a history of objecting to war. It's just silly to require her to join a church.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
I should note that I'd have no problem with her being required to show a history of objecting to war. It's just silly to require her to join a church.
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It's more silly to worry about the possible military service potential of anyone at age 64. ;)
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

ttwtt78640 said:
It's more silly to worry about the possible military service potential of anyone at age 64. ;)
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True.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
Read my edits. You don't have to belong to a church to hold to some belief religiously.
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You can keep trying that bull**** justification if you want. I doubt even you believe it and I highly doubt anyone else buys it (anyone that is that isnt already of the mindset to excuse and justify the lies). And to answer your next post, its only silly to ask her to join a church if she had announced she was an atheist and a conscientious objector and not declared she was exempt due to her deep long held spiritual and religious beliefs. Its silly to claim you have a certain set of qualifications and then being upset you are asked to demonstrate proof of said qualifications.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

ttwtt78640 said:
It's more silly to worry about the possible military service potential of anyone at age 64. ;)
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Not if you are intent on making a statement and having a 'cause'.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

VanceMack said:
You can keep trying that bull**** justification if you want. I doubt even you believe it and I highly doubt anyone else buys it (anyone that is that isnt already of the mindset to excuse and justify the lies). And to answer your next post, its only silly to ask her to join a church if she had announced she was an atheist and a conscientious objector and not declared she was exempt due to her deep long held spiritual and religious beliefs. Its silly to claim you have a certain set of qualifications and then being upset you are asked to demonstrate proof of said qualifications.
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So, you're only spiritual and/or religious if you belong to a church? That's silly.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
So, you're only spiritual and/or religious if you belong to a church? That's silly.
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No...its silly to make such a claim and then be upset when you are told to verify your claim. Its BEYOND silly to claim being an 'atheist' makes you part of a spiritual or religious organization. Had this woman been HONEST and simply stated "I am an atheist and a pacifiist, as such a conscientious objector to war of any kind" then wwe would be having a very different discussion and I would be on her side. She didnt. She lied.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

VanceMack said:
No...its silly to make such a claim and then be upset when you are told to verify your claim. Its BEYOND silly to claim being an 'atheist' makes you part of a spiritual or religious organization. Had this woman been HONEST and simply stated "I am an atheist and a pacifiist, as such a conscientious objector to war of any kind" then wwe would be having a very different discussion and I would be on her side. She didnt. She lied.
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Her letter doesn't say she's part of a spiritual or religious organization.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
Her letter doesn't say she's part of a spiritual or religious organization.
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It says she holds deep spiritual and religious beliefs. She is a liar. She lied. She is neither deeply spiritual, nor religious. had she not lied...had she spoke truth, then there would be no debate here. I would be absolutely on her side. Unfortunately, she lied and was called on her lie and now she and others are whining because she was called on her lie.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

VanceMack said:
It says she holds deep spiritual and religious beliefs. She is a liar. She lied. She is neither deeply spiritual, nor religious. had she not lied...had she spoke truth, then there would be no debate here. I would be absolutely on her side. Unfortunately, she lied and was called on her lie and now she and others are whining because she was called on her lie.
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Again, there are multiple definitions of spiritual and religious. Anyways, you're saying that to be spiritual and or religious you have to belong to a church. Clearly that's not the case. I do agree she should have to show some kind of evidence that she's held these views for a long time, though.
 
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Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
Even if "those are the rules" (Others clearly disagree that those are the rules.), they should be changed. Religion shouldn't be afforded special rights.
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You miss the point. The religious aren't being given special consideration, they simply have a documentable reason why they are conscientious objectors. Atheists don't.

The rule is there to weed out cowards who would make up reasons to avoid national service. I agree that if you don't like the rule you should seek to change it, but I think it should be in the context of recognizing atheist organizations committed to non-violence, not simply allowing anyone to claim to be a non-violent atheist.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

ChuckBerry said:
You miss the point. The religious aren't being given special consideration, they simply have a documentable reason why they are conscientious objectors. Atheists don't.

The rule is there to weed out cowards who would make up reasons to avoid national service. I agree that if you don't like the rule you should seek to change it, but I think it should be in the context of recognizing atheist organizations committed to non-violence, not simply allowing anyone to claim to be a non-violent atheist.
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What about stuff like email records or letters indicating a history of opposition to war? Perhaps she could find a bunch of people to testify as to her position on war? Or, perhaps pictures of her at anti-war rallies throughout the years? I agree there has to be some sort of proof, but it's silly to require her to join a church.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
What about stuff like email records or letters indicating a history of opposition to war? Or, perhaps pictures of her at anti-war rallies throughout the years? I agree there has to be some sort of proof, but it's silly to require her to join a church.
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How about she start an atheist organization and petition the government for recognition of this group? It would be a boon, no doubt, to other atheists in a similar predicament.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

ChuckBerry said:
How about she start an atheist organization and petition the government for recognition of this group? It would be a boon, no doubt, to other atheists in a similar predicament.
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Sure, she could do that, but I don't see how it proves that others, in the future, didn't just join the group in case a draft ever happened. I wonder if the in good standing stuff means they had to go to group meetings regularly?
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
Does it bother monitoring Buddhist temples or Christian churches either?
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Buddhist..not sure. Don't know if they use cells or PCs

Christians...like a hawk.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

WCH said:
Buddhist..not sure. Don't know if they use cells or PCs

Christians...like a hawk.
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Do you have some evidence for all of this?
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

afr0byte said:
Even if "those are the rules" (Others clearly disagree that those are the rules.), they should be changed. Religion shouldn't be afforded special rights.
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Those ARE the rules. The exemption was written specifically to address religions of peace. If the American humanists want to add to the allowed exception list for the rule they can go through the legislature to do it, just like everyone else. However, to change the rule, and the meaning of the rule when written for a non-citizen - forget it. If she doesn't like the rules we have for citizenship - here's the door, there's your hat, what's your hurry.
 
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Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

clownboy said:
Those ARE the rules. The exemption was written specifically to address religions of peace. If the American humanists want to add to the allowed exception list for the rule they can go through the legislature to do it, just like everyone else. However, to change the rule, and the meaning of the rule when written for a non-citizen - forget it. If she doesn't like the rules we have for citizenship - here's the door, there's your hat, what's your hurry.
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The current state of CO status doesn't require someone belong to a religion.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
That article doesn't state that they're going in to churches.
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I posted another and I don't need to hear excuses. Everyday the news bring us more abuses.
 
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