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How do you explain this?

Knowledge=power said:
So here's what you want me to believe:

God told his people he would send his son, then they didn't realize it was Jesus and killed him - subsequently sealing their eternal fate - when God could have stepped in at any time and validated Jesus...? Either way God has sacrificed his people - whether inadvertently, or intentionally, is irelevant.
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No, they turned their back on him.
 
Rainman05 said:
Jesus is not another God. He is one with God. So you see, they didn't follow his teachings.

The jews killed jesus because he wasn't the Messiah they wanted. They wanted a Messiah like Moses was their savior from Egypt. Moses was a belligerent man with a good mind for warfare, trained in the finest military tactics at the Egyptian court, who massacred his way through Egypt to the Promised Land with his army which he trained up to par.

When Jesus came about, he was a peaceful man who didn't want to drive the Romans out of Israel and punish the enemies of the jews, as Moses did. He taught forgiveness and that the reward and salvation will be in the afterlife. he also went against the dominant hierarchy, the rabbi order, and so, they had him killed. He was too popular with the masses to be allowed to live for if the masses would adopt his ways, the rabbi order would lose all its power and influence. So the rabbis and the jewish officials went to Pontus Pilate and demanded that he kills Jesus or else he will have a riot on his hands the like of which wasn't since the Maccabean rebellion (which is what is celebrated during hannukah). Pilate didn't want to lose his position, which would have happened if there would be a revolt and Rome would have to commit its already thin-spreaded forces... so in the interest of keeping the peace, he took Jesus prisoner and let him be tried by the Jews, which sentenced him to death.

Jesus, the Messiah, was promised by God to save humanity from the sins of Adam and Eve and offer forgiveness, and this was promised since the genesis.

Now in the OT, you also have phrases like this:

He will bring destruction to the enemies of Israel (Num 24:15-19).

He will reign in perfect peace, justice, and righteousness as King over the entire earth (Gen 49:10

He will bring salvation to Israel and reign over her as King (Is 49:5-6a; Micah 5:2; Jer 23:5-6; 30:21; 33:16; Ezek 37:15-28).

He will be given glory and everlasting dominion over all the nations of the earth, and His kingdom will be established forever (Dan 7:13-14; 2 Sam 7:10-13; Ps 132:11b).

Now... this is in contrast to stuff like

He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace (Is 9:6c). - not really a prince of peace if he lays death and destruction now is he?

He will bring good news to the afflicted (Is 61:1-3).
He will wash away the guilt of sinners (Is 4:1-4).
He will serve as a channel of divine blessing to the world (Gen 12:1-3).
He will be called “the Lord our righteousness” (Jer 23:6; 33:16; cf. Mal 4:2).

And also, phrases like this

He will come from the town of Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).
He will come in humility (Zech 9:9).
He will die as a substitutionary sacrifice for guilty sinners to provide forgiveness and salvation (Is 53:1-12; Zech 3:9).
He will be rejected by man, pierced by the Jews, and crushed by God the Father (Is 53:1-12; Zech 11:4-14; 12:10; 13:7; cf. Ps 22; cf. Dan 9:26a).

So yeah. Jesus is one with God, prophecized since the Genesis and promised by God to mankind to free it from its sins... And he is one with God and the Holy Spirit.
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Ok, great. What about the Jews then? Their chopped liver?
 
Rainman05 said:
The Jews sentenced him to death, not the Romans. The Romans were the executioners, but not his judge and jury.
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No the Roman's and Jewish Going against the church was seen as a act of terrorism since the Govt back then was the church or working with the church . Crucifixion was Reserved for those kind crimes. Jesus lived as a Jew and even celebrated a Passover with his disciples .
 
Knowledge=power said:
Ok, great. What about the Jews then? Their chopped liver?
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Well I don't know. I'm not a theologist.

But I see no reason why the Jewish believers have to live by Christian dogma. they have their own. From their perspective, they are still waiting for their Messiah.
Christians are done waiting for the Messiah and await for the second coming which is no point to worry about because nobody knows when it will be.

The Hindus' are waiting on their 9th God or something like that... The buddhists are waiting for the weather to change because they have nothing better to do all day. Etc.
 
Knowledge=power said:
Ok, great. What about the Jews then? Their chopped liver?
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Christian is a names Jesus never called his version of religion , Nor god in a sense it really is a part of the Jewish religion .
 
Knowledge=power said:
I was thinking about this the other day:

So Yaweh is the God of the Jewish people. He is also the God of the Christian people. Yaweh explicitly told the Jewish people in the old testament NOT to worship any other Gods and to beware of false prophets. The Jews worshipped Yaweh and followed his orders - and still do. They killed Jesus for being a heretic, as they were instructed to do. Why didn't God foretell the coming of Jesus in the old testament? They didn't even get a heads ups warning signal like a message written in a cloud or some other supernatural phenomenon. What a helluva trap to lay for his people... eh? They killed Jesus for claiming to be the son of their God. They had no proof he was God's son, how could they have known?...

Now, according to Christians, if you don't accept Jesus as your lord and savior, it's into the lake of fire you go. So the Jews are now screwed for all eternity for staying true to their God's orders? What kind of crap is that? Talk about selling out your people.
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Well since he drowned all of them but one family, you might want to consider that "fairness" is not God's agenda.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
So you are talking about mythology, not actual history.
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Yeah but it is how they could have gotten the idea from , religions tend to fed on each other .
 
Fisher said:
Well since he drowned all of them but one family, you might want to consider that "fairness" is not God's agenda.
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The incest thing really does creep me out .
 
Un biased said:
Yeah but it is how they could have gotten the idea from , religions tend to fed on each other .
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Where who got the idea from? The Romans got the idea? We are talking about how Jesus was factually born of a Virgin.
 
Un biased said:
No the Roman's and Jewish Going against the church was seen as a act of terrorism since the Govt back then was the church or working with the church . Crucifixion was Reserved for those kind crimes. Jesus lived as a Jew and even celebrated a Passover with his disciples .
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Jesus was a Judean. There is no evidence of him being a jew. He didn't celebrate hannukah for instance... so he's not a jew. He's the first Christian... well, the founder of Christianity to be precise. Christ... Christianity. Get it?

The Romans weren't going against the Rabbi Order. They were working together to promote stability in the area. It was a tense relationship but that's how empires, and the romans, operate. You get local support from people you can work with and who are interested in a mutually beneficial agreement.


Crucifiction was a punishment reserved for anything the Romans wanted. It was a very popular penalty because it instilled terror and dred in the population and the people who they wanted to keep quiet. They punished thieves and bandits like this. They punished rapists like this. They punished traitors, deserters, slave uprisings, everything they could like this to discourage further behavior they wanted to discourage.

Jesus condemned the rabbi order and his death was instrumented by them and carried out by the Romans. I detailed everything in the previous post.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Where who got the idea from? The Romans got the idea? We are talking about how Jesus was factually born of a Virgin.
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Who really knows if she was a virgin or not and not just a girl who cheated on her husband and had to find a way to cover up the fact they never had intercourse and she is pregnant , she could have gotten the idea from the roman mythology . Several people have compared Jesus to Bacchus since he has similar chateristics in turning water into wine .
 
davidtaylorjr said:
No, it is factual history, and true.
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OK, show me some proof of this virgin birth then. Explain to me how this could happen ("God did it." doesn't count, since it doesn't actually tell us anything.).
 
afr0byte said:
OK, show me some proof of this virgin birth then. Explain to me how this could happen ("God did it." doesn't count, since it doesn't actually tell us anything.).
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But that is what happened.
 
Un biased said:
And the Jewish do not believe they will not be going to hell so in their mind set they will not be .
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What does their mindset matter? Buddhists do not believe they are going to hell either, but according to Christians principles, they are.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Being born of a virgin was a small superficial prophecy? Do you know anyone else who has or ever will fulfill that? Really?
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If you were a Jew living in 1CE Palestine, pretty much at the bottom of the pecking order in all of the known world, do you think you'd be more interested in some hippy kid who claimed to be born of a virgin or do you think you'd maybe blow that off and keep looking for a Heavenly King type Messiah to ride in at the vanguard of a conquering army and restore your people to their rightful place as God's chosen people?

I'm not syaing that someone actually being born of a virgin isn't interesting, but you're talking about a point in history where someone claimed to be born of a virggin every other Tuesday.

The point is that Jesus fills all the questionable, doubtful, and coincidental aspects of the Messiah prophecy without actually delivering on any of the substanital prophecies that a Jews of that time period would be expecting.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
But that is what happened.
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Yeah, OK. *wink* *wink* ... Certainly it's not more likely, as Un biased said, that Mary cheated on Joseph and then lied about it. That's never happened in human history, right? :lamo
 
Un biased said:
Who really knows if she was a virgin or not and not just a girl who cheated on her husband and had to find a way to cover up the fact they never had intercourse and she is pregnant , she could have gotten the idea from the roman mythology . Several people have compared Jesus to Bacchus since he has similar chateristics in turning water into wine .
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That's not a very nice thing to say.

Maybe your mother cheated on your "father" with another man and hence before she got married and married your father just to cover it up, you don't know your real dad and your mother is skank.

Doesn't feel to nice to say that now does it? So why would you say such a thing about Jesus? What did the guy ever do to you?

Stop being like you are and be a better person, or else, that hypothesis, may actually increase the odds of being reality.

EDIT;
afr0byte said:
Yeah, OK. *wink* *wink* ... Certainly it's not more likely, as Un biased said, that Mary cheated on Joseph and then lied about it. That's never happened in human history, right? :lamo
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Another one to the mix.
 
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