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Memes - Do you believe what you believe?

Amadeus

Amadeus

Chews the Cud
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This is kind of a paradoxical question that probably can't be answered, but maybe it will lead to an interesting discussion...

Do you think your opinions on certain issues (e.g. guns, religion) are self-derived, or do you think that your environment has contributed to the shaping of your beliefs? Would you have the same opinions if you studied a particular topic in a societal vacuum? Are you the victim or product of a memetic thinking?
 
Amadeus said:
Societal vacuum. The absence of cultural influence.
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No such thing. Culture shapes your every interaction, it shapes your thought patterns. It's an inescapable influence. If you remove it, there's nothing to base an opinion on. Take guns, assessed in a vacuum, they're neutral objects that can have positive or negative uses. It's only when your cultures shapes your view that you get a meaningful opinion, that guns become the embodiment of evil, or the only defense against tyranny, or any other opinion in between.
 
Amadeus said:
Do you think your opinions on certain issues (e.g. guns, religion) are self-derived, or do you think that your environment has contributed to the shaping of your beliefs? Would you have the same opinions if you studied a particular topic in a societal vacuum? Are you the victim or product of a memetic thinking?
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Environment MUST contribute. In my case, my thoughts on gun control are derived from my experience as an adult, as guns were not a factor in my environment growing up. My parents were both relatively pacifist. My thoughts on religion definitely started in my childhood, and the religious impulse is strong in me, but my beliefs themselves, have progressed through several changes. My core values came from my childhood upbringing. The way I act on those core beliefs, and the form that they take, is a result of my particular ability to reason as an adult.
 
spud_meister said:
No such thing. Culture shapes your every interaction, it shapes your thought patterns. It's an inescapable influence. If you remove it, there's nothing to base an opinion on. Take guns, assessed in a vacuum, they're neutral objects that can have positive or negative uses. It's only when your cultures shapes your view that you get a meaningful opinion, that guns become the embodiment of evil, or the only defense against tyranny, or any other opinion in between.
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It depends on the issue. I was not raised around guns or religion to any real extent, nor was I pushed in any particular direction as to their right/wrongness. I had very little opinion on most issues until my mid-20s.
 
I can assure you that no one is going to claim to be a product of "memes". I'd be willing to bet that everyone feels they have derived their philosophy and ethics in just as respectable a manner as yourself.

Enter a jackass: "You're wrong! I just believe anything!"
 
There is an very challenging series on feral children raised devoid of social contact or raised with animals.
 
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Incredible example...




 
ecofarm said:
I can assure you that no one is going to claim to be a product of "memes". I'd be willing to bet that everyone feels they have derived their philosophy and ethics in just as respectable a manner as yourself.

Enter a jackass: "You're wrong! I just believe anything!"
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I would like to know what the roots of my beliefs are. Perhaps I have been influenced/infected by memes. If so, maybe I can reflect on what I believe to be true.
 
Amadeus said:
I would like to know what the roots of my beliefs are. Perhaps I have been influenced/infected by memes. If so, maybe I can reflect on what I believe to be true.
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You're probably infected.
 
From birth most people are incessantly and massively instructed with truisms of what is right, what is wrong, about behavior, beliefs and so forth. Continuously from fine detail to sweeping platitudes, slogans and beliefs.

This is the most challenging and fascinating aspect of the forum. Most debates are just slinging slogans and platitudes as truisms back and forth. If someone has a strong viewpoint but is proven wrong factually or in logic, the typical response of many is the furiously rage, ridicule, try to divert or try to derail. However, my response on dozens of occasions as been to simply acknowledge that I was wrong because I don't function on slogans and platitudes. I've changed my partisan stance more than once too. I was grew up on a society devoid of laws, government, and with virtually no good social norms or rules of behavior, so there is little I sense is automatically right or wrong, true or false.

There is even evidence that a person's brain hardwires to the values, norms and beliefs, the social standards, the person grows up in - and why people tend to furiously dig in if those core beliefs are challenged. Understanding this nature of people could affect everything from education, to criminal justice to foreign policy. It literally make take a generation or two for a society to substantively change not just psychologically but even for how their brains function.
 
Amadeus said:
I would like to know what the roots of my beliefs are. Perhaps I have been influenced/infected by memes. If so, maybe I can reflect on what I believe to be true.
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The roots are found in early childhood experiences. I was raised by devout Christian parents. I raised my son in a non-religious environment. My core values are the same as those of my parents. My son's core values are very similar to my own. We are taught the basics of the values that we hold later into life. Those values may become more refined with time, but they are still there. Some of them even appear to be genetic. A good friend of mine has a son who is pretty dysfunctional in society, and has a problem with poor impulse control, stealing, etc. He has been chronically in trouble with law enforcement. His mother (my friend) is one of the most upstanding women that I know. She wouldn't consider living the way he does. The problem is, his bio father has been in and out of jail his entire adult life, and the son was not raised with the father's environmental influence.
 
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lizzie said:
The roots are found in early childhood experiences. I was raised by devout Christian parents. I raised my son in a non-religious environment. My core values are the same as those of my parents. My son's core values are very similar to my own. We are taught the basics of the values that we hold later into life. Those values may become more refined with time, but they are still there. Some of them even appear to be genetic. A good friend of mine has a son who is pretty dysfunctional in society, and has a problem with poor impulse control, stealing, etc. He has been chronically in trouble with law enforcement. His mother (my friend) is one of the most upstanding women that I know. She wouldn't consider living the way he does. The problem is, his bio father has been in and out of jail his entire adult life, and the son was not raised with the father's environmental influence.
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I don't think there is a magic phase. I grew up in a large family and we are all over the place. While each child's experiences are different even within the same family, I think life experience has had as much influence as what parents taught in early childhood.
 
lizzie said:
The roots are found in early childhood experiences. I was raised by devout Christian parents. I raised my son in a non-religious environment. My core values are the same as those of my parents. My son's core values are very similar to my own. We are taught the basics of the values that we hold later into life. Those values may become more refined with time, but they are still there. Some of them even appear to be genetic. A good friend of mine has a son who is pretty dysfunctional in society, and has a problem with poor impulse control, stealing, etc. He has been chronically in trouble with law enforcement. His mother (my friend) is one of the most upstanding women that I know. She wouldn't consider living the way he does. The problem is, his bio father has been in and out of jail his entire adult life, and the son was not raised with the father's environmental influence.
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What is difficult to factor in - and many highly protest if anyone tries - is how much is a person's personality and demeanor originated in genetics? The traits of dogs are extremely defined and known by their breed/genetics. How much genetics affects a person is a complicated question and one people don't want to approach - and for good reasons. However, that does not mean it isn't a factor. Rather, a danger factor to explore giving the dangers of eugenics.
 
Amadeus said:
This is kind of a paradoxical question that probably can't be answered, but maybe it will lead to an interesting discussion...

Do you think your opinions on certain issues (e.g. guns, religion) are self-derived, or do you think that your environment has contributed to the shaping of your beliefs? Would you have the same opinions if you studied a particular topic in a societal vacuum? Are you the victim or product of a memetic thinking?
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Good topic.

Environmental factors definitely shape one's beliefs on certain issues and one's personality / character. In a vacuum, there would be no relevant points of measure for one to percieve societal issues - therefore, almost all issues in a vacuum are essentially hypothetical. I believe the only core values which a person would could achieve consistently in a vacuum would be simple moral judgements, such as not harming others, etc.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Right is right wrong is wrong. Inside a vacuum or IRL it is one and the same.
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Well, since you're gonna claim objectivity, why don't you cite what you mean is "right" and "wrong," along with the evidence you have that it is, in fact, objective.
 
People are forgetting genes twins seperated at birth have similarities
 
Un biased said:
People are forgetting genes twins seperated at birth have similarities
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They have some similarities. To the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any real studies on either monozygotic or fraternal twins regarding their political or philosophical ideologies.
 
zgoldsmith23 said:
Well, since you're gonna claim objectivity, why don't you cite what you mean is "right" and "wrong," along with the evidence you have that it is, in fact, objective.
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You sound more like a liberal than a libertarian. There is no blurry line between right and wrong in the vast majority of situations. Lets say someone cuts you off driving down the highway. Do you pull up beside them and open fire with your pistol or is that wrong?
 
joko104 said:
What is difficult to factor in - and many highly protest if anyone tries - is how much is a person's personality and demeanor originated in genetics? The traits of dogs are extremely defined and known by their breed/genetics. How much genetics affects a person is a complicated question and one people don't want to approach - and for good reasons. However, that does not mean it isn't a factor. Rather, a danger factor to explore giving the dangers of eugenics.
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I personally suspect that genetics is a significant factor, in neural pathways, emotional make-up, and behavioral patterns. As for the learning of values, not nearly as influencial as environment. Being that breeding for looks and confirmation is so prevalent in the show animal world, and seems to contribute negatively to personality, I prefer mutts, whether they be dogs or humans.
 
Amadeus said:
It depends on the issue. I was not raised around guns or religion to any real extent, nor was I pushed in any particular direction as to their right/wrongness. I had very little opinion on most issues until my mid-20s.
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You were apathetic because you were raised in a culture of apathy to those issues. It's not a vacuum.

As a culture, we're exposed to memes from the earliest time, childrens songs are memes, children learn by emulating others behaviour. Humans are a product of their environment, it's inescapable.
 
Amadeus said:
This is kind of a paradoxical question that probably can't be answered, but maybe it will lead to an interesting discussion...

Do you think your opinions on certain issues (e.g. guns, religion) are self-derived, or do you think that your environment has contributed to the shaping of your beliefs? Would you have the same opinions if you studied a particular topic in a societal vacuum? Are you the victim or product of a memetic thinking?
Click to expand...

When I was a young adult, I didn't care about political opinions, it was boring. I didn't shoot guns or go to church. I played sports, road cross bikes, skateboards, swimming, fishing, partied and smoked doobs. As I matured a little, I started to hear others opinions (conservative mostly) at work and I simply agreed, because without much thought it seemed to make sense. Again, I wasn't very passionate about it yet. Then as I aged a little more, I began to have more intense reactions seeing what was happening in the News and elections. But I was sort of right wing brain washed, though I still believe in many of their philosophies of personal accountability, small government and social liberties.

One day my father told me to look at issues from different sides, which had a big impact. It made me decide to have opinions based solely on what was fair and reasonable and not on anything biased. This was much more difficult to consider all the variables and formulate a rational view for every topic. It also made me unpopular with anybody who was partisan on a majority of issues. Now I'm back to, "I don't care, it doesn't affect me and it's boring." :)
 
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