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Atheists, the Pope Says You're Alright...

ChezC3 said:
Well, an interesting thing to me is those of the humanistic bend rarely know or if knowing, prefer not to acknowledge the fact that St. Augustine of Hippo (Doctor of the Church) was hugely influential to their tradition.
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I suppose that it would help if atheists learned that different denominations had/have different beliefs.
 
Dezaad said:
Sword through the "dove" for me. The Catholic Church (along with all churches) need to stop trying to influence laws on the basis of religion. Only then can atheists stop trying to influence belief.

Belief as a political thing invites scrutiny of belief.
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I can't speak on the variety of churches, but the Church, its teachings have a logical premise. It isn't really so much a case with them as it is others that you should do it cuz God said so! They break it down a bit further than that.
 
Tucker Case said:
I'm guessing the indifference is due to the fact that the way he did it was condescending and doesn't treat atheists as equals.

In his statement, he had the atheist in a "seeking answers" position, and himself as the "paternal/educator" figure.

This gives the appearance that atheists are little unthinking wayward sheep which he, the shepherd, must guide in some way. Now, given the context of who he is (the "shepherd of the Catholic faith), this isn't surprising nor should it be seen as offensive, but that's not very easy to see from the perspective of a non-Catholic atheist. From their perspective, it's the kind of statement which warrants indifference.
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I can see the condescension angle to an extent. Although, the more I think about certain atheists taking issue with that, the more ridiculous negative responses to the Pope seem given that such atheists tend to argue that religious people treating criticism as condescension are "too sensitive."

What really matters, though, is that his message is not intended for atheists. It is intended for Roman Catholics. How atheists react to it means nothing. It's all about how Catholics react to it. If this inspires many Catholics to start determining good based on deed rather than belief, then it doesn't matter if he did it in a somewhat condescending way.

Some atheists being apathetic to his comments won't make any real difference, though.
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Actually, how atheists react to it does mean something when you're gauging how atheists who complain about religious intolerance react to a message of tolerance. The other stuff matters as well, but for different reasons.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
I can see the condescension angle to an extent. Although, the more I think about certain atheists taking issue with that, the more ridiculous negative responses to the Pope seem given that such atheists tend to argue that religious people treating criticism as condescension are "too sensitive."

Actually, how atheists react to it does mean something when you're gauging how atheists who complain about religious intolerance react to a message of tolerance. The other stuff matters as well, but for different reasons.
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Apathy doesn't indicate anything other than that which was already known: Atheists hold no deference for the pope.

If the reaction you were commenting on was atheist animosity, rather than apathy, then the reaction of those atheists means something.

But apathy is to be expected from people who hold not deference for the pope. You came in and commented on the apathy of atheists with your first comment, not animosity. Don't move the goal posts to try and make it about the negative responses (negative responses are, by definition, not apathetic).
 
ChezC3 said:
Pope Francis says atheists can be good | World news | The Guardian

So, would you accept this as an olive branch, or will you put a sword through the dove?
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I think it's a wonderful message to Catholics...and that's what it's primary aimed at, CATHOLICS. Not the Pope telling athiests "you guys are okay" but the Pope telling Catholics "Those guys are okay".

It's pushing a message christianity already should in general be pushing. Just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't necessarily mean they're "bad people" or that you should treat them like parriah. Treat them kindly, show them respect, work with them for common good, and if it seems they're open to it then enlighten them to Christ but do not disrespect them by beating them with the religious equivilent of a cudgel.
 
Zyphlin said:
I think it's a wonderful message to Catholics...and that's what it's primary aimed at, CATHOLICS. Not the Pope telling athiests "you guys are okay" but the Pope telling Catholics "Those guys are okay".

It's pushing a message christianity already should in general be pushing. Just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't necessarily mean they're "bad people" or that you should treat them like parriah. Treat them kindly, show them respect, work with them for common good, and if it seems they're open to it then enlighten them to Christ but do not disrespect them by beating them with the religious equivilent of a cudgel.
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Exactly. It's not an olive branch to atheists, it's basically a Jesuit social justice message to all Catholics: Don't judge a person, judge their deeds.
 
ChuckBerry said:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that "Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion but the imputability of the offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances" (CCC#2125).

The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. On Good Friday we all pray:

Let us pray also for those who do not believe in Christ,that, enlightened by the Holy Spirit,they, too, may enter on the way of salvation. Almighty ever-living God,grant to those who do not confess Christ that, by walking before you with a sincere heart, they may find the truth and that we ourselves, being constant in mutual love and striving to understand more fully the mystery of your life, may be made more perfect witnesses to your love in the world. Through Christ our Lord.

Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too! - Living Faith - Home & Family - Catholic Online

I too have long recognized a difference in my heart between those who by virtue of life circumstances or lack of religious discipline in early life did not believe, and those who hold contempt towards religion and the very idea of God. Pope Francis is alluding to conscience, that connection that we all have with God, and if we attend to it, whether we call it God or not, we can do good.
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Wow, thanks for posting that. It actually makes me chuckle a bit...

My dad is the quintesential lapsed catholic. My grandfather is VERY religious, and dad went to Catholic school all the way up through 9th grade. Growing up, early on, we went to Catholic church but around the time I was 9 or so dad had a talk with me asking me if I wanted to still go and if I liked it and my 9 yo self of course said no. And so I stopped.

Later in life, talking to him about religion, I very much got his view of it. He routinely jokes that he went to church services enough while in school to last him a lifetime (He hated his nuns ;)). His general view is if you strive to be a good person...being kind, charitable, caring, helpful, etc....then he'd like to think if there's a god that he's not going to condemn you to eternal suffering because you didn't go into a building every sunday or because you didn't specifically say "Yo, big guy, you're totally up there".
 
Tucker Case said:
That's nice of him. Somebody should let him know that I said that Catholics should be seen as good people if they do good, too.
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Well considering that it appears he's talking to Catholics rather than to athiests....wouldn't your statement be more accurate being aimed at letting those like you know that you say catholics should be seen as good people?

Also...it's wonderful to know that you're the equivilent of a defacto leader of whatever you believe across the entire world with the power to essentially speak on behalf of what your particular belief is as part of canon for said belief system.
 
Zyphlin said:
Well considering that it appears he's talking to Catholics rather than to athiests....wouldn't your statement be more accurate being aimed at letting those like you know that you say catholics should be seen as good people?
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Doesn't work as well as a joke that way. ;)

Also...it's wonderful to know that you're the equivilent of a defacto leader of whatever you believe across the entire world with the power to essentially speak on behalf of what your particular belief is as part of canon for said belief system
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This is why it works as a joke.

Also, I do have the power to speak on behalf of all of the people in the world with my particular belief system. ;)
 
Tucker Case said:
Doesn't work as well as a joke that way. ;)
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Heh, my bad on reading tone then. It seemd like a sarcastic swat back at the Pope as if what he said was worthy of condemnation, insult, and belittling and not as some kind of light hearted joke.
 
Zyphlin said:
Heh, my bad on reading tone then. It seemd like a sarcastic swat back at the Pope as if what he said was worthy of condemnation, insult, and belittling and not as some kind of light hearted joke.
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I should have put the :2razz: smiley at the end of it then. My bad.
 
Zyphlin said:
I think it's a wonderful message to Catholics...and that's what it's primary aimed at, CATHOLICS. Not the Pope telling athiests "you guys are okay" but the Pope telling Catholics "Those guys are okay".

It's pushing a message christianity already should in general be pushing. Just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't necessarily mean they're "bad people" or that you should treat them like parriah. Treat them kindly, show them respect, work with them for common good, and if it seems they're open to it then enlighten them to Christ but do not disrespect them by beating them with the religious equivilent of a cudgel.
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I'd just like to point out one thing. Look at your post and then back to me then back at your post than back to me

Thread: Atheists, the Pope Says You're Alright...

did I say Atheists, the Pope tells you you're alright?

Or did, I say the pope says you're alright, like Hey, Johnny, that guy Zyp, he's alright. Did you hear me telling you you were alright? No, I told Johnny you was alright, like the pope told the catholics yous was alright. that means yous is alright, and I says it, like da pope did, alright?:smoking:
 
ChezC3 said:
I'd just like to point out one thing. Look at your post and then back to me then back at your post than back to me
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You're on a horse?

Thread: Atheists, the Pope Says You're Alright...

did I say Atheists, the Pope tells you you're alright?
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I wasn't suggesting YOU were stating that the Pope was speaking to athiests. It was more in response to the numerous other people in the thread who WERE responding to your OP as if the Popes comments were aimed at athiests, not catholics. Posts like # 4, post #14 (which was a misreading of tone on my part), post #15 to a lesser extent. As well as just a general vibe I had gotten today from various places I've heard it talked about, that somehow the Pope was specifically telling athiests that they have his approval or something.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
calamity said:
Like who cares what the Pope says? He's the leader of a criminal organization which conspires to protect child molesters. The last thing I want his his approval.
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:slapme::beatdeadhorse

I'm surprised it took this long...

:roll:
 
Zyphlin said:
I think it's a wonderful message to Catholics...and that's what it's primary aimed at, CATHOLICS. Not the Pope telling athiests "you guys are okay" but the Pope telling Catholics "Those guys are okay".

It's pushing a message christianity already should in general be pushing. Just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't necessarily mean they're "bad people" or that you should treat them like parriah. Treat them kindly, show them respect, work with them for common good, and if it seems they're open to it then enlighten them to Christ but do not disrespect them by beating them with the religious equivilent of a cudgel.
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I've never met a catholic who thought otherwise. I would say the flock is leading the shepherd, but I believe the pope is just reiterating standard catholic doctrine.

The message makes me apathetic as a baptised and confirmed catholic atheist, because its not news to me from either viewpoint.
 
Zyphlin said:
You're on a horse?
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:sword:




I wasn't suggesting YOU were stating that the Pope was speaking to athiests. It was more in response to the numerous other people in the thread who WERE responding to your OP as if the Popes comments were aimed at athiests, not catholics. Posts like # 4, post #14 (which was a misreading of tone on my part), post #15 to a lesser extent. As well as just a general vibe I had gotten today from various places I've heard it talked about, that somehow the Pope was specifically telling athiests that they have his approval or something.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Nonsense, the confusion was mine...:confused:
 
Zyphlin said:
Heh, my bad on reading tone then. It seemd like a sarcastic swat back at the Pope as if what he said was worthy of condemnation, insult, and belittling and not as some kind of light hearted joke.
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I feel like I should explain further. To a certain degree there is an underlying point to my joke based on the thread. As you pointed out, and I myself pointed out even before you in this thread, the message was designed for Catholics. This thread, however, is informing atheists of the Pope's statements as though we should have some sort of reaction to his statements.

My joke was actually a comment on how inconsequential the Pope's comments are to an atheist. It was supposed to elicit the reaction of "Why should the Pope give a **** about your endorsement of Catholics?" in people (he shouldn't really give a ****), which, hopefully, would inspire some thought on their part about why an atheist should care one way or the other about the Pope's endorsement of them (We shouldn't really give a ****, either).

If someone finds my comment offensive, then they should find the fact that people are trying to tell atheists the Pope's comment equally offensive, because my comment was not about what the pope said, it was about being told about what the Pope said as though I should care about it.
 
ChezC3 said:
:slapme::beatdeadhorse

I'm surprised it took this long...

:roll:
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Yeah. We should just get past that whole religious leaders and their penchant for boy butt sex thing. After all. What really matters is what the Pope thinks of atheists. :roll:
 
ChezC3 said:
I can't speak on the variety of churches, but the Church, its teachings have a logical premise. It isn't really so much a case with them as it is others that you should do it cuz God said so! They break it down a bit further than that.
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No, actually they don't. Fancy theological arguments are not any less religious than simply saying "god said so", as that is the root nevertheless. And furthermore, as long as religion is influencing public policy in any manner, belief is fair game.
 
Ben K. said:
I've never met a catholic who thought otherwise. I would say the flock is leading the shepherd, but I believe the pope is just reiterating standard catholic doctrine.

The message makes me apathetic as a baptised and confirmed catholic atheist, because its not news to me from either viewpoint.
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Same here (on every count), except in the recent years, there was a wave of virulent attacks on religion by "new atheists" and no less poisonous counteroffensive, at least in America. The reminder from the Pope is quite welcome, under the circumstances.
 
Tucker Case said:
IThis thread, however, is informing atheists of the Pope's statements as though we should have some sort of reaction to his statements.
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I would suggest you're right in stating athiests, as a whole, shouldn't be expected to have an interest or care about this.

I would however suggest that for those athiests, and I've seen plenty, who continually paint all or a large portion of Chrisitanity and/or religion in general as intolerant, hostile to athiests, and close minded it is reasonable to think they may have a care to know about this because it's an example of a major figure within a major religion openly preaching and urging tolerance, peaceful relations with athiests, and a more open mind.

I don't expect an average non-football fan to care if Goodell comes out with some new rules that make the game "less barbaric". I WOULD, however, think it's reasonable to expect an average non-football fan who routinely acknowledges the "barbaric" nature of the game as being why they are not a fan to possibly find interest and react somewhat favorably to information regarding said new rules.
 
calamity said:
Like who cares what the Pope says? He's the leader of a criminal organization which conspires to protect child molesters.
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Alternative view: He's the leader of the world's largest religious assembly, with some 1.3 billion members. Not even half of them are child molesters, honest.
 
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