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Value of Human Life

1. What are the common interests?

We belong to the same nation. Therefore, it's at least relatively safe to assume we both want that nation to prosper.

2. Aliens are a different species.

Noun

alien (plural aliens)

A person, animal, plant, or other thing which is from outside the family, group, organization, or territory under consideration.
A foreigner residing in a country.
Any life form of extraterrestrial origin.
One excluded from certain privileges; one alienated or estranged.

alien - Wiktionary

That is one out of four definitions, and the other three all apply.
 
It's much more involved that a line on a map. Same language, same culture, same laws all influence how easily with empathize with other people. I can more easily imagine some guy in Los Angeles sitting in his den reading the same science magazine I'm reading than I can some guy in rural Pakistan doing who knows what with his free time. Ontario is harder because Canadian culture is slightly different, but it's still easier than the rural Pakistani. Mexico is harder than Canada because the culture is much different and the language isn't the same. To me, Mexico is no different than, say, Germany or Spain or France as far as my ability to empathize.

Why does your ebility to empathize depend on them being like you?

Why would that be different than say only empathizing with people from your religion, or race, or whatever?
 
I think it's important that a man takes to it on himself to fight for his own freedom, so that he can truly understand and appreciate what it means to be free when he finally gets it in his hands.

I respect and value all human life, but our military is for our protection and the peoples problems outside of our borders are not our problem. As I said, people must fight for their own causes and they must be the decider on what those causes are, so that they can truly appreciate the award.
 
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We belong to the same nation. Therefore, it's at least relatively safe to assume we both want that nation to prosper.

I want me and the people I love to prosper .... not the nation, beyond me and the people I love, I want EVERYONE to prosper, be them on one part of an imaginary man made line or the other, or under one government or another.

alien - Wiktionary

That is one out of four definitions, and the other three all apply.

Ok, and when you say alien, I would say they don't apply, a foreigner living in my country is no more important than a national, don't see why he would be.

Also the whole idea of nationalism goes against the christian ethic of universalism which I am commited to.
 
I want me and the people I love to prosper .... not the nation, beyond me and the people I love, I want EVERYONE to prosper, be them on one part of an imaginary man made line or the other, or under one government or another.

That's the difference between us. I want my family to prosper first, and then my extended family, and then my nation, and then everyone else.

Ok, and when you say alien, I would say they don't apply, a foreigner living in my country is no more important than a national, don't see why he would be.

Also the whole idea of nationalism goes against the christian ethic of universalism which I am commited to.

I am neither a Christian nor a universalist. I am very much tribalist in my outlook, and ideologically committed to that outlook.
 
That's the difference between us. I want my family to prosper first, and then my extended family, and then my nation, and then everyone else.

Yeah, but WHY your nation? family and extended family makes sense, they are people you know and love individually.

If the US decides to sell Texas to Mexico or Michagin to Canada tommorrow, they are automatically out ... just because some imaginary lines drawn up by rulers have changed, how is that rational?

I am neither a Christian nor a universalist. I am very much tribalist in my outlook, and ideologically committed to that outlook.

Fair enough
 
This is pretty much what I'm getting at. Emotional investment is the currency when valuing human life. Speaking for myself, I cannot afford to invest in the lives of people who are dying en masse in the Middle East (or wherever). When I choose to focus on the issue, yes, I become angry and emotional, but I can filter out the emotional investment quite easily.
There was a great article on this a while ago, talking about a concept of the monkeysphere. Essentially - there is a hard limit on the number of people you can conceptualise as being actual real people who you empathise with, and that this is why an earthquake disaster killing hundreds in China isn't as tragic as a tornado in the US killing less than a seventh of that number. While I think that the concept is too black-and-white - there are levels of emotional investment, not 'all' vs 'none', it's a compelling argument.
 
Why does your ebility to empathize depend on them being like you?
Ask yourself that question as you try to empathize with a slug instead of a human being.

Why would that be different than say only empathizing with people from your religion, or race, or whatever?
To some extent - everything else being equal - one should empathize more with people of your own race than people that aren't. That's genetics at work - genes trying to make as many copies of themselves as possible. As I also said earlier, modern society has over-ridden that to some extent, though anyone who's aware of racism knows it's not gone completely. On average white Americans probably do relate easier to white Americans than black Americans and vice versa. There tend to be large sub-cultures in a country as big as ours. But I'd still bet most white Americans relate easier to black Americans than they do white Germans.


I don't know enough about organized religions on a personal level to answer that part. Can a Catholic more easily empathize with another Catholic in Africa or with the Baptist in the next state? :shrug: I'm betting the latter but that's just a WAG.
 
Ask yourself that question as you try to empathize with a slug instead of a human being.

I have an answer ... species ... nature (God) made. Not so with nation-states

To some extent - everything else being equal - one should empathize more with people of your own race than people that aren't. That's genetics at work - genes trying to make as many copies of themselves as possible. As I also said earlier, modern society has over-ridden that to some extent, though anyone who's aware of racism knows it's not gone completely. On average white Americans probably do relate easier to white Americans than black Americans and vice versa. There tend to be large sub-cultures in a country as big as ours. But I'd still bet most white Americans relate easier to black Americans than they do white Germans.

I don't know enough about organized religions on a personal level to answer that part. Can a Catholic more easily empathize with another Catholic in Africa or with the Baptist in the next state? :shrug: I'm betting the latter but that's just a WAG.

It isn't genetics at work, there are more differences amung white people or black peopel than there are between them.

Whether or not you relate more to someone doesn't change whether or not their life is more or less valuble ... Or whether you should view their life and more or less valuble.
 
I have an answer ... species ... nature (God) made. Not so with nation-states
You said "depend on them being like you". I gave you a concrete example of trying to empathize when it isn't like you. I take it I made my point?


It isn't genetics at work, there are more differences amung white people or black peopel than there are between them.
Yes, I'm aware of that but that doesn't change the "average", which I specifically included in my statement.


Whether or not you relate more to someone doesn't change whether or not their life is more or less valuble ... Or whether you should view their life and more or less valuble.
You're looking at it from a rational point of view. I'm not, as my opening post shows, "I think if we're all completely honest with ourselves ..." That includes being emotionally honest, not just rational. Our emotions will tend to side with our genes.
 
You said "depend on them being like you". I gave you a concrete example of trying to empathize when it isn't like you. I take it I made my point?

Yeah, except you gave a rediculous example, if you think human life is more valuble the more similar they are to you, then you have to defend it.

Yes, I'm aware of that but that doesn't change the "average", which I specifically included in my statement.

There isn't really an average, I meant average as well.

You're looking at it from a rational point of view. I'm not, as my opening post shows, "I think if we're all completely honest with ourselves ..." That includes being emotionally honest, not just rational. Our emotions will tend to side with our genes.

Our emotions tend to side with how we grew up ... not with our genes, also genes have nothing to do with nation-states.

Also we should act rationally ...
 
Yeah, except you gave a rediculous example, if you think human life is more valuble the more similar they are to you, then you have to defend it.
It's not a ridiculous example, it highlights the point. I tried the more simple examples earlier and you rejected them without cause.


There isn't really an average, I meant average as well.
Of course there's an average. Every large data set has an average of some kind, in this case, genes - in the modern vernacular, alleles. There are a lot of alleles that go into making up the human face and build and are more shared inside the same race. I can't easily tell the difference between Japanese and Korean - but they can, or so I've been told.


Our emotions tend to side with how we grew up ... not with our genes, also genes have nothing to do with nation-states.
Our genes are the starting point and you can't change that. Nature and nurture go hand in hand, however, so to some extent our emotions come from nurture, which is the cultural aspect of empathy. You asked for the connection, you just provided it.


Also we should act rationally ...
Being polite has little to do with what we feel. This thread isn't about how we should act, it's about how we feel and do act. Value doesn't come strictly from rationality. If that were true our economy (consumer spending) would be radically different than it is.
 
It's not a ridiculous example, it highlights the point. I tried the more simple examples earlier and you rejected them without cause.

Yes it is, slugs are not human ....

Of course there's an average. Every large data set has an average of some kind, in this case, genes - in the modern vernacular, alleles. There are a lot of alleles that go into making up the human face and build and are more shared inside the same race. I can't easily tell the difference between Japanese and Korean - but they can, or so I've been told.

Except studies show that you have as many genetic differences with people of your same color as you do with people of other colours ... there is no genetic race.

Our genes are the starting point and you can't change that. Nature and nurture go hand in hand, however, so to some extent our emotions come from nurture, which is the cultural aspect of empathy. You asked for the connection, you just provided it.

Yeah, but if you are just going to accept that I can only empathise with people that I consider to be like me, and not understand others, then you're essencially willfully ignorant.

Someone who considers people of his own country as more important, intrinsicly, are willfully ignorant.

Being polite has little to do with what we feel. This thread isn't about how we should act, it's about how we feel and do act. Value doesn't come strictly from rationality. If that were true our economy (consumer spending) would be radically different than it is.

Yes, we are not perfectly rational, but you seam to be saying "yeah, I'm not acting rationally, and I don't want to....."
 
Yes it is, slugs are not human ....
Exactly! How much more unalike would you prefer?


Except studies show that you have as many genetic differences with people of your same color as you do with people of other colours ... there is no genetic race.
That's not exactly true. In general, genetisists will tell you that because the common definition of race does not apply. However, there are subsections of the human genome where people tend to fall. I tend to fall in with northwestern Europe, for example. Asians tend to fall into northern and southern. Blacks are all over the map because of the varying lineages in Africa.


Yeah, but if you are just going to accept that I can only empathise with people that I consider to be like me, and not understand others, then you're essencially willfully ignorant.

Someone who considers people of his own country as more important, intrinsicly, are willfully ignorant.
Being able to empathize easier with people who are like you doesn't preclude understanding others.

It's not intrinsic, that would be genetic based instead of culture based.


Yes, we are not perfectly rational, but you seam to be saying "yeah, I'm not acting rationally, and I don't want to....."
I haven't said anything about right or wrong, I've made no judgments. Only you seem to be doing that. I've been commenting on tendencies based on genetic and/or cultural similarities.
 
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Exactly! How much more unalike would you prefer?

I'm talking within the human species ....

That's not exactly true. In general, genetisists will tell you that because the common definition of race does not apply. However, there are subsections of the human genome where people tend to fall. I tend to fall in with northwestern Europe, for example. Asians tend to fall into northern and southern. Blacks are all over the map because of the varying lineages in Africa.

Ok, still not an argument for nationalism or why you SHOULD empathise with one over the other.

Being able to empathize easier with people who are like you doesn't preclude understanding others.

That's what empathy is ... also again, why do national boundaries matter? You havn't made an argument for nationalism.

It's not intrinsic, that would be genetic based instead of culture based.

You have argued for fundemental genetic differences in races that you think should matter, also why do culture differences matter ethically? If it's easier to empathize with someone rather than someone else that doesn't mean its right to do so.

I mean was it right that Nazi's didn't empathize with Jews just because they had cultural differences? No becausea they were all human.

I haven't said anything about right or wrong, I've made no judgments. Only you seem to be doing that. I've been commenting on tendencies based on genetic and/or cultural similarities.

This whole thread is about right and wrong since it's about human "VALUE!"
 
This whole thread is about right and wrong since it's about human "VALUE!"

In order to determine value, you have to determine the currency. I maintain that the currency is empathy and emotional connection, which are highly subjective.
 
In order to determine value, you have to determine the currency. I maintain that the currency is empathy and emotional connection, which are highly subjective.

I don't think so, I think that humans have INTRINSIC value, all man is made in the image of God, so for example a human has value even if he lives in a society that doesn't think so, or no one has an emotional connection with thim, he still has value.
 
I don't think so, I think that humans have INTRINSIC value, all man is made in the image of God, so for example a human has value even if he lives in a society that doesn't think so, or no one has an emotional connection with thim, he still has value.

Even if that were the case, it would be impossible to determine an objective value for human life. We are not deities. There is Biblical scripture that places a set value on certain human life, but it is not flattering.
 
Even if that were the case, it would be impossible to determine an objective value for human life. We are not deities. There is Biblical scripture that places a set value on certain human life, but it is not flattering.

There is no objective value for anything other than in relation to other things. But the point is whatever the value is ... ALL human life has objective value in itself.

If you don't believe that, then in essence the Nazi's did nothing wrong .... they didn't empathize with jews, or have an emotional connection, then I guess those lives had no value ... so why should anyone condemn the Nazis?

I do because I claim ALL humans have intrinsic value.
 
If you don't believe that, then in essence the Nazi's did nothing wrong .... they didn't empathize with jews, or have an emotional connection, then I guess those lives had no value ... so why should anyone condemn the Nazis?

It is up for you to determine whether or not what the Nazis did was wrong. God cannot make that decision for you.
 
It is up for you to determine whether or not what the Nazis did was wrong. God cannot make that decision for you.

That doesn't answer the question, or even deal with the issue.

Did the Jews that the Nazi's killed have any intrinsic value? If not on what basis can you say what Nazi's did is wrong?
 
That doesn't answer the question, or even deal with the issue.

Did the Jews that the Nazi's killed have any intrinsic value? If not on what basis can you say what Nazi's did is wrong?

It answers the question perfectly. You have to decide if what the Nazis did was wrong. Judgement of the Nazis depends on your personal ethics, your ideology, and your overall personality. I have no direct emotional connection to the millions of Jews who died -- if I did, my head would likely explode. I can, however, express moral outrage at what the Nazis did to the Jews.
 
It answers the question perfectly. You have to decide if what the Nazis did was wrong. Judgement of the Nazis depends on your personal ethics, your ideology, and your overall personality. I have no direct emotional connection to the millions of Jews who died -- if I did, my head would likely explode. I can, however, express moral outrage at what the Nazis did to the Jews.

How can you express moral outrage at what the Nazi's did to the Jews?

What inherent value did those Jews .. or ANY human group have?
 
How can you express moral outrage at what the Nazi's did to the Jews?

What inherent value did those Jews .. or ANY human group have?

A number of factors enter into the 'equation'. Most importantly, I'm a fellow human. I can identify with the Jews on that very basic level. And even if no Jews had died, I would be appalled at the tactics used by the Nazis to demonize and dehumanize them.
 
A number of factors enter into the 'equation'. Most importantly, I'm a fellow human. I can identify with the Jews on that very basic level. And even if no Jews had died, I would be appalled at the tactics used by the Nazis to demonize and dehumanize them.

So I am a fellow Human, that is a distincion made by nature .. or God, whatever.

Also why is their value dependant on other peoples ability to identify with them? If the Nazi's did NOT identify with them, one what basis can you say that they acted morally wrong?

Also why does "I am a citizien of such and such country" count when it comes to empathy.
 
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