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objective morality

Does objective morality exist?

  • Total voters
    17
SingleCellOrganism said:
Without God, there is no morality objective or otherwise.

We're just biological androids, everything is irrelevant, and we're ultimately just animals. Self satisfaction should be maximized at the expense of others. (logically)

With God there is objective morality, established by God.

The creator made us as moral agents capable of understanding right/wrong. He directs us towards the right/righteous/moral behavior and will punish those who violate.
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What if "god" willed morality not be objective? Would it still be objective?
 
zgoldsmith23 said:
What if "god" willed morality not be objective? Would it still be objective?
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There are some things God can't do; one of them being establishing a principle and then calling it not objective :)

In other words, the lack of objectivity would be objectivity in itself.
 
SingleCellOrganism said:
There are some things God can't do; one of them being establishing a principle and then calling it not objective :)
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So, he's not omnipotent? Well that's not very "god-like."

In other words, the lack of objectivity would be objectivity in itself.
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"The only objective thing is that it's all subjective."
 
zgoldsmith23 said:
So, he's not omnipotent? Well that's not very "god-like."



"The only objective thing is that it's all subjective."
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Jehovah/Yahweh never claimed to be omnipotent! In the bible at least, there are some things God cannot do.

(I'll let the other religions speak for themselves)

But just thinking about this critically: God can't make a round square, or a circular triangle. As well as any other manner of logical inconsistencies.

From a moral perspective, he can't force free-willed minds to do anything; only provide instruction.
 
SingleCellOrganism said:
Jehovah/Yahweh never claimed to be omnipotent! In the bible at least, there are some things God cannot do.
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For just one example:

Matthew 19:26 said:
"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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But just thinking about this critically: God can't make a round square, or a circular triangle. As well as any other manner of logical inconsistencies.

From a moral perspective, he can't force free-willed minds to do anything; only provide instruction.
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He can force a mind to do things, just eliminate free-will. Surely he can do that if he gave it to us?
 
zgoldsmith23 said:
For just one example:





He can force a mind to do things, just eliminate free-will. Surely he can do that if he gave it to us?
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Yes, but since he determined that we be free-willed, it's a logical inconsistency to suggest that he can manipulate a free-willed mind.

So sure, he could have made us 'righteous' automatons, but fortunately (for us) didn't.

edit: as to the scripture you posted, you need context, Jesus isn't saying "EVERYTHING you can conceive of is possible"

“Truly I say to you that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. Again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.”

When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: “Who really can be saved?” Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

See the distinction with what is being said, and a blanket 'everything is possible you can conceive of' statement? Jesus is responding to the disciples who are basically saying "we're all hosed" to which Jesus says that "God can do what you cannot"
 
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Legal positivism would be what your looking for....natural law doesnt really set and standards of moral ground. Humans for instance would be extremely chaotic in a " state of nature".
 
Objective morality is a problem because some evolutionary theorists believe that our sense of right and wrong develop historically, and that it is open to change as we evolve throughout the generations. If it is the case that our brain develops over thousands and thousands of years, some evolutionary thinkers might say, then our understanding of right and wrong might change as well. So their is essentially no such thing as a set standard for all...so yes it would be subjective based off laws and society .
 
Medusa said:
they are not real believers.
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Funny, they seem convinced that they believe to me. Playing the irrational "no true theist" card again? Of course you are!
 
I believe there are absolute morals as dictated by God in the Bible. You can believe what you want, but ultimately when stacked against absolute morals a person is wrong and in my belief will stand before God in judgement.
 
l still have been questioning lots of concepts regarding god ,religions ,"how to be a good human " ,the other life " etc. although l first began to feel god by heart after having experienced some disappointing things in the life .l know what you will say now

" you lost your beloved ones or had some grief and felt lonely and conditioned yourself to believe in god "

but it is not that simple .

l had started a thread about death ,you can search one of my posts about dreams in that thread,l know you will mock the psychic experiences in dreams

anyway

l never became a real believer till a few years ago . l used to think as a teenager that there was a god who wasnt interested in this world and religions were just man made rules .then l tended to develop a nihilistic way of thinking in a period of time .and l didnt even pray too much for anything l wanted to get in this life.what l quitted believing was my own god instead of the god in holy books .( but we all still have different gods in my opinion whether we believe in the same religion or not ))

then l really began to feel the need to get some spiritual support as a person who lost her joy of living (teh belief in god is the best cure in case you lose your faith in everything




but all l can say after all is that l feel god in my heart ( whatever you call it ) and l dont believe in him because l fear him

l believe in a supreme being because l really felt disturbed anf regretfull after leaving the religion (this feel is not like a fear or lack of knowlegde about the historical background of the heavenly religions ).in my opinion the belief in god is an emotional case rather than a logic based process.l can say l perceive god through my senses.

so finally l still claim not everybody can be a true believer.
Cephus said:
Funny, they seem convinced that they believe to me. Playing the irrational "no true theist" card again? Of course you are!
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no l dont believe in democracy in its current form

but voted yes by mistake.((
 
SingleCellOrganism said:
Without God, there is no morality objective or otherwise.

We're just biological androids, everything is irrelevant, and we're ultimately just animals. Self satisfaction should be maximized at the expense of others. (logically)
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Self satisfaction is not the goal, procreation - passing along as many of your genes as possible - is. If you're going to lay out the biological facts, then do it right.
 
SingleCellOrganism said:
Yes, but since he determined that we be free-willed, it's a logical inconsistency to suggest that he can manipulate a free-willed mind.
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If "god" truly is omnipotent, then he is all powerful. So are you saying once "god" has determined something, he is unable to change it?

edit: as to the scripture you posted, you need context, Jesus isn't saying "EVERYTHING you can conceive of is possible"
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That seems a bit of a wishful interpretation. Omnipotent means all powerful, or having absolute power of all things.

“Truly I say to you that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. Again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.”
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This has to do with non-omnipotent people, not an omnipotent being.

When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: “Who really can be saved?” Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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"All things are possible" so, yes, Jesus claims "god" is omnipotent. We've agreed he can't be omnipotent.
 
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