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The Supernatural

Northern Light said:
It's not that black and white though. It's not like we have to choose science or religion, as though these are the only choices. It's possible to venture into grey areas as scientists and acknowledge that we have to leave the model a little bit flexible in order to open ourselves up to potentially new avenues.

For example... a common argument against paranormal phenomena like telepathy is that it's confirmation bias. This is *always* the go to argument for dogmatic scientists. But the experimental data demonstrates, statistically, that there is likely more going on than that. The telephone experiment is a good example, along with the bystander gaze experiment. The rates are higher than 60%.

But how do we investigate these claims if science is not willing to acknowledge ESP? So you see, there is a problem there. We either journey into the grey zone or we keep pretending that something that could be possible, is simply impossible -- not because we have proven it as such, but because we've decided material reductionism and mechanistic life are the "laws" and so those claims should be dismissed.

You and others keep asserting that if something is observable then science will be willing to test it. Sheldrake and others have demonstrated that the peer review circles are staunchly against even LOOKING at research. That's a BIG oversight.

The discovery of new phenomena that is beyond our testing range always starts with mere observation, and then circumstantially-repeatable experiments. Then theories are developed. Then, with enough interest, we develop the tools to look harder. But if there is refusal to do the initial observation, the succession of events doesn't happen.
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The British and the American governments, as well as the Chinese and the Soviets, all conducted their own research into ESP throughout most of the Cold War. I don't know how much funding was poured into those projects, but with the motivation of having super psychic soldiers before anyone else, I'm going to guess that funding was "enough." The research fizzled and was discontinued due to lack of results.
 
I'm a skeptic, I am not superstitious nor do I believe in anything supernatural or spiritual.

I've had what I thought was an out of body experience when I was awakened from a dream that my friends were just about to show up, by said friends in the very clothes they wore in my dream. Of course I saw them earlier that day @ school in said clothes.

I also experienced a very strange sleep paralysis in college when I took a nap after downing a tall chai tea, the nap took 5 hours but felt like 10 seconds. I slept with my eyes open (I was told) and saw the sunset in what appeared to be fast forward.
 
Cardinal said:
Not a clue.


If it has no interesting in "entering laboratory conditions," then science is probably the wrong discipline for studying it.


If it won't enter "laboratory conditions"? No idea.
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What other discipline would you find appropriate?

Could you not take a scientific approach to tackling questions regarding supernatural phenomena?
 
Cardinal said:
The British and the American governments, as well as the Chinese and the Soviets, all conducted their own research into ESP throughout most of the Cold War. I don't know how much funding was poured into those projects, but with the motivation of having super psychic soldiers before anyone else, I'm going to guess that funding was "enough." The research fizzled and was discontinued due to lack of results.
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That's one thing about secret projects, even a successful one can be called a failure, moved deeper underground and then expanded... As far as this topic I have no real proof that it's the case, just that it may not be so cut and dry.
 
Science or the human brain lacks the terminology to explain many aspects of physics because it's currently beyond our comprehension/imagination making it unexplainable. Supernatural may be just a level of sophistication, intelligence and energy that we've yet to attain or possibly ever will.

For example while you're alive the center of reality is within you and can't be proved otherwise.
 
Knowledge=power said:
I hear the argument of certain realms being supernatural and unreachable by science or any kind of observation.

Have you ever experienced anything supernatural? Any stories of hauntings, or possessions, or seances?

I lived near a cemetery as a kid. There was an urban legend that if you put flour on your car, and stop on the railroad tracks just before the entrance to the cemetary, that spirits would push your car off of them to save you, because they had suffered the fate of being hit by a train and were good spirits trying to look out for people. I never tried it. Truth is, as logical and bolted to reality as I am, that stuff still spooks me quite a bit. The funny thing is, if this realm was supernatural and not observable, how could supernatural beings act in the physical world and cause chandeliers to sway, and floors to creak? Are they capable of healing? Protecting?

The supernatural realm is where God is supposed to live too. My extremely religious extended family used to tell us that there is a constant war going on between angels and demons and that it is happening all around us :roll:

How can anything supernatural interact with us? Whether it be God, or a spirit, or a demon, etc?

I do not believe in such things, but I'd like to hear from people who as to what they think.
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After my husband died I had those 'hallucinations' at night that there was someone in the room with me. As an educated person, I consider them hallucinations. I worked with a woman who is native American, she told me they were real. A lot of people have that same experience and find it comforting. I did not find it comforting. When I moved out of the house we lived in they stopped until I had a patient die. It happened again then, but not since. Before my doctor put me on oxygen at night my dreams were like people describe their NDEs. Those places I dreamt of were not unpleasant places. But I didn't see dead loved ones or God or anything.

As to natural versus supernatural. Perhaps it is all the same continuum and we just haven't been able to explain everything with our limited understanding. Example: Dogs can hear things we can't. Just sayin.
 
BmanMcfly said:
What other discipline would you find appropriate?

Could you not take a scientific approach to tackling questions regarding supernatural phenomena?
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Maybe. Results were inconclusive with the Cold War projects, but scientists have come up with a way of testing the recently popular "Simulation Hypothesis," which would have seemed pretty unlikely just a short time ago, so who knows? If the supernatural exists, then scientific methods or instruments have not come far enough to detect it. Until then, results are "inconclusive."
 
BmanMcfly said:
That's one thing about secret projects, even a successful one can be called a failure, moved deeper underground and then expanded... As far as this topic I have no real proof that it's the case, just that it may not be so cut and dry.
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I don't discuss conspiracy theory.
 
Knowledge=power said:
I hear the argument of certain realms being supernatural and unreachable by science or any kind of observation.

Have you ever experienced anything supernatural? Any stories of hauntings, or possessions, or seances?

I lived near a cemetery as a kid. There was an urban legend that if you put flour on your car, and stop on the railroad tracks just before the entrance to the cemetary, that spirits would push your car off of them to save you, because they had suffered the fate of being hit by a train and were good spirits trying to look out for people. I never tried it. Truth is, as logical and bolted to reality as I am, that stuff still spooks me quite a bit. The funny thing is, if this realm was supernatural and not observable, how could supernatural beings act in the physical world and cause chandeliers to sway, and floors to creak? Are they capable of healing? Protecting?

The supernatural realm is where God is supposed to live too. My extremely religious extended family used to tell us that there is a constant war going on between angels and demons and that it is happening all around us :roll:

How can anything supernatural interact with us? Whether it be God, or a spirit, or a demon, etc?

I do not believe in such things, but I'd like to hear from people who as to what they think.
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I believe in the unknown and the unexplained. Is that a belief in the supernatural? I think it is to a certain extent. I do not believe science can either prove or disprove the existence or non-existence of god or gods. I think there are things way beyond the capabilities of man to either explain or debunk. Does this means I believe in ghosts and goblins , probably not the way westerners would define them. I have seen some things in the smoky mountains of Laos that are, at least to me unexplainable. That is fine by me. I do not need a scientific explanation or answer to everything. Accepting what is as what is or what happened as it happened at times is enough.
 
Perotista said:
I believe in the unknown and the unexplained. Is that a belief in the supernatural? I think it is to a certain extent. I do not believe science can either prove or disprove the existence or non-existence of god or gods. I think there are things way beyond the capabilities of man to either explain or debunk. Does this means I believe in ghosts and goblins , probably not the way westerners would define them. I have seen some things in the smoky mountains of Laos that are, at least to me unexplainable. That is fine by me. I do not need a scientific explanation or answer to everything. Accepting what is as what is or what happened as it happened at times is enough.
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I think it would be interesting to hear about some of those things.
 
Cardinal said:
The British and the American governments, as well as the Chinese and the Soviets, all conducted their own research into ESP throughout most of the Cold War. I don't know how much funding was poured into those projects, but with the motivation of having super psychic soldiers before anyone else, I'm going to guess that funding was "enough." The research fizzled and was discontinued due to lack of results.
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Do you really think those governments would acknowledge psychic powers if they were discovered? That's not mainstream science but government espionage, so I don't think we can rely on those reports.
 
Goshin said:
Yes, but I rarely speak of it. Skeptics merely roll their eyes and laugh into their sleeves, so why bother? Not to mention some of those experiences were very disturbing.
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I would guess that they have never experienced anything they can't explain. My sister is skeptical, and I always dare her to spend the night in haunted places or test her beliefs but she refuses. I think that that is another component of skepticism. Some of them outright refuse to challenge their assumptions. You'll never reach any amount of truth that way.

In my sister's case, I wonder if she is afraid that supernatural things may be real and may exist.
 
Cardinal said:
I don't discuss conspiracy theory.
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What conspiracy theory? I was talking about trends with declassified projects... The claim is that the project was halted due to unsatisfactory results, when declassified documents show otherwise... That's all that I'll say on the subject though.
 
BmanMcfly said:
What conspiracy theory? I was talking about trends with declassified projects... The claim is that the project was halted due to unsatisfactory results, when declassified documents show otherwise... That's all that I'll say on the subject though.
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Which declassified documents?
 
lizzie said:
Well, in my perception, it is sort of like a parallel existence or world. I am also inclined toward believing that reincarnation is very likely, based on experiences of a few people I know, and a couple of scientific-minded individuals that I only know via reading. There is nothing I have concrete evidence of, merely intuitive impressions and taking the word of others at face value. Since I don't objectively "know", I don't tend to try and convince anyone else, but I am comfortable with whatever reality is.
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I think reincarnation seems possible, since in our universe there is a pattern of destruction and rebirth. I can't remember how it was explained to me exactly, but almost everything in the universe is made up of star dust and the same elements, and these elements create new planets, stars, and life forms (like us, humans) through a pattern of destruction and reconstruction.
 
Northern Light said:
Do you really think those governments would acknowledge psychic powers if they were discovered? That's not mainstream science but government espionage, so I don't think we can rely on those reports.
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Are scientists refusing to acknowledge ESP or have they acknowledged it but kept it secret?

Edit: ugh. Not getting into conspiracy theories!
 
BmanMcfly said:
That's not a valid analogy... Science claims to search for truth through evidence, but then refuse to examine evidence that is anomalous to their current model of belief.

This is not arbitrarily forcing asinine rules that do not apply for the topic.
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This never actually happens. Scientists spend most of their time trying to destroy accepted models. That's where the Nobel prizes are. That's what string theorists did when they developed string theory. That's what Einstein did when he discovered relativity. That's what Darwin did when he figured out evolution via natural selection. That's what Hawking did, half a dozen times. The scientific community, and the general principles of science, gobbles up anomalous evidence as fast as it can.
 
SheWolf said:
I think reincarnation seems possible, since in our universe there is a pattern of destruction and rebirth. I can't remember how it was explained to me exactly, but almost everything in the universe is made up of star dust and the same elements, and these elements create new planets, stars, and life forms (like us, humans) through a pattern of destruction and reconstruction.
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FWIW, I never remember a time in my life when I didn't believe in re-incarnation. I have always believed it to be true. Growing up in the U.S. in a mainstream Christian faith, it's pretty difficult to hold onto such blasphemous and unpopular beliefs, especially as a child. You don't find many objective people who are readily willing to discuss the possibility. It becomes only a little bit easier to discuss as an adult - as we see here.
 
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As for supernatural experiences, I have had them.

I lived in a house where this black shadowy figure was standing over my bed. I didn't tell anybody about it, because I thought it was a dream or some normal shadow.... then my sister had the same experience in that room. She described it the same way... a man with kind of shoulder length hair with curls in it.

I eventually had a dream about the person, and he gave me his name.... and there was some kind of Native American connection and he showed me a tree. I kept getting a word like sequoia. I learned that sequoia is type of tree and a Native American tribe. I know it could have been just a dream, but I also have been curious to do some research on the house and see if I can find something that fits.


My dad has also had dreams or weird experiences. His grandpa, for example, had a stroke, and he was unable to talk for a long time and he was in the hospital. My dad was a little kid, and his grandpa was his friend. My dad was super upset, because his grandpa was suddenly unable to talk to him and looked really sick.

Well, one night my dad woke up and saw grandpa in his room. He talked to my dad, and said he was ok now, and then grandpa left. My dad woke up his mom and told her that grandpa was there and left. In the morning they learned that he had another stroke in the middle of the night and died.

I think the experience was really important to my dad as a kid, because he was ok once he saw his grandpa happy and talking again. My dad still talks about it a lot today.
 
Cardinal said:
Are scientists refusing to acknowledge ESP or have they acknowledged it but kept it secret?

Edit: ugh. Not getting into conspiracy theories!
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I think your question is valid and I agree let's not get into conspiracies. I would just rather focus on the work of very visible accredited scientists and not formerly secret (and perhaps still secret) government projects.

The data from public reporting on paranormal phenomena is more than enough to go on for forming research hypotheses.
 
Paschendale said:
This never actually happens. Scientists spend most of their time trying to destroy accepted models. That's where the Nobel prizes are. That's what string theorists did when they developed string theory. That's what Einstein did when he discovered relativity. That's what Darwin did when he figured out evolution via natural selection. That's what Hawking did, half a dozen times. The scientific community, and the general principles of science, gobbles up anomalous evidence as fast as it can.
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But it's all done via physical, mechanistic means. They aren't working in a whole new paradigm, they're still working in the same physical, concrete, "only 5 senses" means.

Why is the mainstream so averse to testing theories like morphic resonance, or reading the independent research done on it?
 
Northern Light said:
I think your question is valid and I agree let's not get into conspiracies. I would just rather focus on the work of very visible accredited scientists and not formerly secret (and perhaps still secret) government projects.

The data from public reporting on paranormal phenomena is more than enough to go on for forming research hypotheses.
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The taunting semantics inherent in the attribution "conspiracy theories" is the kind of language one often encounters when attempting to discuss paranormal phenomena or the "supernatural". I have learned to completely ignore it and the people who use it.
 
Perotista said:
I believe in the unknown and the unexplained. Is that a belief in the supernatural? I think it is to a certain extent. I do not believe science can either prove or disprove the existence or non-existence of god or gods. I think there are things way beyond the capabilities of man to either explain or debunk. Does this means I believe in ghosts and goblins , probably not the way westerners would define them. I have seen some things in the smoky mountains of Laos that are, at least to me unexplainable. That is fine by me. I do not need a scientific explanation or answer to everything. Accepting what is as what is or what happened as it happened at times is enough.
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Pero, the unfortunate thing about science is that they have to keep revising their thinking as new information is discovered, while the ancient beliefs remain the same. We are not knowledgeable enough yet to disregard or belittle something just because we don't understand it, IMO. I'm certain the universe holds many more surprises yet to come! :thumbs:
 
Northern Light said:
But it's all done via physical, mechanistic means. They aren't working in a whole new paradigm, they're still working in the same physical, concrete, "only 5 senses" means.

Why is the mainstream so averse to testing theories like morphic resonance, or reading the independent research done on it?
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Dr. J.B. Rhine did conduct research for years at Duke. His battle in the academic world is quite an interesting story. He was taunted (there's that word again), shunned and marginalized every step of the way by mainstream academia.
 
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