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Why aren’t liberals more critical of Islam?

WI Crippler said:
Modern day liberalism is only willing to extend and fight for the ideals and rights they believe in within the boundaries of Western civilization. Once you step outside that area, they become much more tolerant of right-wing extremism they so despise within their own countries.
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Or modern day "Progressives", or "Socialists", anyway.

Here is how it works:

"My life is worthless and miserable, and there must be a reason for this besides me"

"My culture must be at fault. It's effed up and not me"

"Everything that's not of my culture must be better"

"Best of all is that which most opposes my culture"

"Go Mullahs, go!!".
 
I'll try to answer this honestly and without irritation.

First of all, there's a huge difference between "radical Islamist" and Muslim. Just as huge a gap as there is between the Westboro Baptists, FLDS wackos, and even Jehovah's Witnesses and your garden variety Presbyterian or Lutheran.

It's quite often people will rail against all Muslims when in fact the VAST majority of Muslims are as peaceful as butterflies and simply want the same things out of life as everyone else.

Second, lets look at the religio-political aspect of the USofA. Who wants to infuse and corrupt the constitution with more religious over-tones and subtext? Is it the Christians or the Muslims?
Should I point out people like Michelle Bachmann, Rick Perry, and Rick Santorum? Huge, major candidates for president in the last election.

Third, who represents the main blockade in things like gay marriage, pro-choice, and preventing science from being taught in school? It's not really Muslims is it? Not in the USofA.

Forth - who stands firmly in the way of advocating birth control? The largest Christian corporation on the planet perhaps? The Catholic Church maybe?


What many of us find amusing is that many of the things "you" like to rail about regarding the Muslim religion can be directly comparable to christianity. It's really an apples to apples analogy yet you tend to overlook such things.

As an American, any and all religions should be welcomed into this country, and given equal treatment and respect. That's the freedom of religion idea.

What is not welcome is violence and hatred. Which comes from humans of all walks of life and all cultures, and all religions.

Don't forget that entire cultures have been destroyed in the name of Christianity over the course of thousands of years.

Generally speaking, people tend to get upset when a group of people starts to think it's better than the others.
Often times, religion is a catalyst for just such a process.
 
Dragonfly said:
I'll try to answer this honestly and without irritation.

First of all, there's a huge difference between "radical Islamist" and Muslim. Just as huge a gap as there is between the Westboro Baptists, FLDS wackos, and even Jehovah's Witnesses and your garden variety Presbyterian or Lutheran.

It's quite often people will rail against all Muslims when in fact the VAST majority of Muslims are as peaceful as butterflies and simply want the same things out of life as everyone else.

Second, lets look at the religio-political aspect of the USofA. Who wants to infuse and corrupt the constitution with more religious over-tones and subtext? Is it the Christians or the Muslims?
Should I point out people like Michelle Bachmann, Rick Perry, and Rick Santorum? Huge, major candidates for president in the last election.

Third, who represents the main blockade in things like gay marriage, pro-choice, and preventing science from being taught in school? It's not really Muslims is it? Not in the USofA.

Forth - who stands firmly in the way of advocating birth control? The largest Christian corporation on the planet perhaps? The Catholic Church maybe?


What many of us find amusing is that many of the things "you" like to rail about regarding the Muslim religion can be directly comparable to christianity. It's really an apples to apples analogy yet you tend to overlook such things.

As an American, any and all religions should be welcomed into this country, and given equal treatment and respect. That's the freedom of religion idea.

What is not welcome is violence and hatred. Which comes from humans of all walks of life and all cultures, and all religions.

Don't forget that entire cultures have been destroyed in the name of Christianity over the course of thousands of years.

Generally speaking, people tend to get upset when a group of people starts to think it's better than the others.
Often times, religion is a catalyst for just such a process.
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thank you!!
 
One has to parse between legitimate criticism and paranoid prejudice (IE taqiyya: the idea that every Muslim is lying to you). Then there's the Quran "scholars" who mysteriously appeared after 9-11, who picked a few quotes from an anti-Islam web-site but have never read the book or the hadiths.

But then there's the "Christianity was just as bad 400 years ago" argument, as if it's an inevitability that all cultures are compatible with secularism and we're just playing a waiting game. The success rate of secular nations in the Muslim world have thus far been poor. Then there's blaming colonialism, poverty and modern imperialism - which a number of non-Muslim nations have overcome successfully.

There's nothing inevitable about the modernization of Islam, but the modernization of Christianity required criticism of the faith for success.
 
Ben K. said:
One has to parse between legitimate criticism and paranoid prejudice (IE taqiyya: the idea that every Muslim is lying to you). Then there's the Quran "scholars" who mysteriously appeared after 9-11, who picked a few quotes from an anti-Islam web-site but have never read the book or the hadiths.

But then there's the "Christianity was just as bad 400 years ago" argument, as if it's an inevitability that all cultures are compatible with secularism and we're just playing a waiting game. The success rate of secular nations in the Muslim world have thus far been poor. Then there's blaming colonialism, poverty and modern imperialism - which a number of non-Muslim nations have overcome successfully.

There's nothing inevitable about the modernization of Islam, but the modernization of Christianity required criticism of the faith for success.
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Great post. Its a really difficult subject to have any reasonable discussion over.
 
first create a monster ,feed them and support against the eastern block , then try to control them by using moderate! islam in arabian spring although you claim to be fighting against islamists ,then tell lies to your citizens that muslims want to destroy the god blessed america

as disturbing as radicaL islamists
 
Dragonfly said:
I'll try to answer this honestly and without irritation.

First of all, there's a huge difference between "radical Islamist" and Muslim. Just as huge a gap as there is between the Westboro Baptists, FLDS wackos, and even Jehovah's Witnesses and your garden variety Presbyterian or Lutheran.

It's quite often people will rail against all Muslims when in fact the VAST majority of Muslims are as peaceful as butterflies and simply want the same things out of life as everyone else.

Second, lets look at the religio-political aspect of the USofA. Who wants to infuse and corrupt the constitution with more religious over-tones and subtext? Is it the Christians or the Muslims?
Should I point out people like Michelle Bachmann, Rick Perry, and Rick Santorum? Huge, major candidates for president in the last election.

Third, who represents the main blockade in things like gay marriage, pro-choice, and preventing science from being taught in school? It's not really Muslims is it? Not in the USofA.

Forth - who stands firmly in the way of advocating birth control? The largest Christian corporation on the planet perhaps? The Catholic Church maybe?


What many of us find amusing is that many of the things "you" like to rail about regarding the Muslim religion can be directly comparable to christianity. It's really an apples to apples analogy yet you tend to overlook such things.

As an American, any and all religions should be welcomed into this country, and given equal treatment and respect. That's the freedom of religion idea.

What is not welcome is violence and hatred. Which comes from humans of all walks of life and all cultures, and all religions.

Don't forget that entire cultures have been destroyed in the name of Christianity over the course of thousands of years.

Generally speaking, people tend to get upset when a group of people starts to think it's better than the others.
Often times, religion is a catalyst for just such a process.
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I agree with much of what you have to say, especially in regards to the difference between Muslims and Islamists. Some of what you say strikes me as a bit specious, however, especially in regards to your comparisons between Islam and Christianity. All these issues in regards to gay rights and whatnot only have to do with lack of representation within the population rather than lack of support or opposition.

Were you to compare the populations of Christians vs Muslims world wide and try to chart the range of attitudes among their adherents, you would find that Islam is far more conservative in nature. That does not mean there are no liberal Muslims nor conservative Christians -- obviously not. It simply means that the relationship between the adherents and the religion is such that Islam is more predisposed towards fundamentalist beliefs. THey are NOT the same despite your claims, they are different, and part of this difference lies in the structure of the religions, themselves. Islam is more predisposed towards rules and laws, whereas Christianity is more predisposed towards spirit. Sure, there are countless Christians who WANT Christianity to be all about rules and laws -- Pharisees all -- an these people can be as annoying as all get up, but that doesn't change the nature of Islam one iota.

If people make excuses for Islam while attacking Christianity, they are acting as hypocrites. THis hypocrisy is even more obvious when they attack Christianity for certain aspects that are much less prevelent and much less strident than similar aspects of Islam.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
This is yet another stupid overgeneralization. The post is also ironic. Exactly what you claim happens with the left, is exactly what happens with the right. One never finds someone on the extreme right taking a position that would seem to have them agree with a position on the left. That is why these people are not really conservatives. They are just anti-liberals. They really have nothing they believe in. Just things they DON'T believe in.
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It's pretty obvious I've touched a nerve based on the tone of your criticism, but there was something I noticed about your response. I noticed that you didn't actually dispute it. You instead played "the right is just as bad as the left" moral equivalence game, which as far as I can tell, the facts simply don't support. Sure, there are cases where the right will take a position just to disagree with the left, that's the nature of politics... But I challenge you to come up with an example from the right that even comes close to what I posted.

I mean it's one thing to choose a particular side of an argument just to spite your political opponents, but it's quite another when doing so entails defending or protecting a religious ideology that hates America, that oppresses/abuses women, that executes homosexuals, that kills innocent women and children in the name of their beliefs, and condones (and in some cases encourages) violence against non-believers, Jews, or anyone who they feel has insulted their religion in some way. Politics or no politics, there's simply no way to justify this... Never mind the fact that it completely contradict how the left treats Christianity. At the drop of a hat, the left will target and relentlessly attack Christians for things like their opposition to gay marriage and their belief that the gay lifestyle is a sin, while at the very same time go out of their way to protect the feelings of Muslims and defend the Islamic religion, which not only opposes the gay lifestyle, but in many parts of the world executes homosexuals for the crime of being gay.

If you can't give me an example to support your equivalence argument, then how about at least addressing what I wrote in the previous paragraph?
 
madman said:
answer: Because islam is not trying to change the social and political landscape (via law) of America with their fairytale.
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Do you really believe that? Look at those countries where their numbers are in the majority. As soon as Mubarak was deposed Egypt voted in an islamic theocracy. Here are some others.

An Islamic state is a state that has adopted Islam, specifically Sharia, as its foundations for political institutions, or laws, exclusively, and has implemented the Islamic ruling system khilafah (Arabic: خلافة), and is therefore a theocracy. Although there is much debate as to which states or groups operate strictly according to Islamic Law, Sharia is the official basis for state laws in the following countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen. In Nigeria, the constitution provides that states may elect to use Shari'a laws and courts, though non-Muslims are not required in any state to submit to Shari'a jurisdiction and adherence varies by state.[7]

Saudi Arabia maintains religious courts for all aspects of law and has religious police to maintain social compliance. Also, Iran maintains religious courts for all aspects of law and has religious police to maintain social compliance,[citation needed] while its government is described by the US Central Intelligence Agency as a "theocratic republic".[8] Iran's head of state, or Supreme Leader, is appointed by an elected body called Assembly of Experts.[8][9] The Council of Guardians, considered part of the executive branch of government, is responsible for determining if legislation is in line with Islamic law and customs (the Sharia), and can bar candidates from elections, and greenlight or ban investigations into the election process.[8] Pakistan has Islam as its only official religion and its Federal Shariat Court has the duty of striking down any law not complying with the Sharia code of Islamic law; however, ruling falls upon legal scholars who, while required to be Muslim, are not religious clergy.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy



And I really hate to tell you, YOU too, are also the infidel.
 
mak2 said:
I dont defend Islam, I just point out the lies from the Right. Creeping Sharia is a scary fairy tale, as is most of the rest the RW goes on and on about.
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Actually, in contract law it is already here. Better read your contracts very carefully and see what that 'choice of law' clause says.
 
Grim17 said:
It's pretty obvious I've touched a nerve based on the tone of your criticism, but there was something I noticed about your response. I noticed that you didn't actually dispute it. You instead played "the right is just as bad as the left" moral equivalence game, which as far as I can tell, the facts simply don't support. Sure, there are cases where the right will take a position just to disagree with the left, that's the nature of politics... But I challenge you to come up with an example from the right that even comes close to what I posted.

I mean it's one thing to choose a particular side of an argument just to spite your political opponents, but it's quite another when doing so entails defending or protecting a religious ideology that hates America, that oppresses/abuses women, that executes homosexuals, that kills innocent women and children in the name of their beliefs, and condones (and in some cases encourages) violence against non-believers, Jews, or anyone who they feel has insulted their religion in some way. Politics or no politics, there's simply no way to justify this... Never mind the fact that it completely contradict how the left treats Christianity. At the drop of a hat, the left will target and relentlessly attack Christians for things like their opposition to gay marriage and their belief that the gay lifestyle is a sin, while at the very same time go out of their way to protect the feelings of Muslims and defend the Islamic religion, which not only opposes the gay lifestyle, but in many parts of the world executes homosexuals for the crime of being gay.

If you can't give me an example to support your equivalence argument, then how about at least addressing what I wrote in the previous paragraph?
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gay rights ?

does every westerner support gay rights ?

do all of them support abortions ?

do all of them respect the other people'S life style

if you will say " their rights are protected by laws in many states

l can say turkey is more developed than many western countries,more secular too .

death penalty was abolished ,nobody is punished for aborting or no racial discrimination occured in this country

we saw how french anti gay people showed their hatred towards the gays in another thread

maybe we should ask those radicals why they dont hate sweden or another western country ,

although new testament is full of peaceful verses

christians killed millions of people throughout the history in the name of jesus ,

they also had to kill themselves in bloody civil wars ,

although bible was more peaceful

the blacks they kidnapped to enslave made america " america"






if you keep your hands Off ME ,radicals wont hate you

it is not believable when some cons criticize the radicals
 
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Maenad said:
Do you really believe that? Look at those countries where their numbers are in the majority. As soon as Mubarak was deposed Egypt voted in an islamic theocracy. Here are some others.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy



And I really hate to tell you, YOU too, are also the infidel.
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unfortunately US Ggovernment that claims to fight against radical monsters have been supporting those monsters

interesting but truth

naked truth which some cons dont want to undertstand

conservativism doesnt mean imperialism

but religions have always been abused by dominant powers in many countries
 
tererun said:
This would also be a matter of perception and environment. being concerned with the problems of Islam while it is a small minority while surrounded by huge abuses by christianity makes no sense. You are far more likely in america to have problems with christianity than any form of islam. Christianity is a massive power and a huge oppressive force in america and therefor it demands a larger response. If america were predominantly Muslim then Islam would be a concern. It is also why the ever present abuses by christianity in the middle east often go unnoticed as christians are in the minority and the problems they create are much smaller than the problems the muslims cause.
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What are those 'huge abuses?'
 
Medusa said:
unfortunately US Ggovernment that claims to fight against radical monsters have been supporting those monsters

interesting but truth

naked truth which some imperialist cons dont want to undertstand
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Not sure what you are saying.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Do you ever post anything that is NOT some stupid overgeneralization?
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Well, I often wonder why atheists defend islam so. One would think islam is not a religion. They also defend the islamic theocracies with 'well if that's the majority of THU PEOPLE want, it's OK.' There are also Christians and Jews in those countries. So what about the 'rights of the minorities' which is their great refrain in this country?

And I guess I'm not understanding that rule about rude posts right about now.
 
Maenad said:
Not sure what you are saying.
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the arabian spring has been supported by US and teh europeans

saddam ,qaddafi ,mubarek ,assad ,

dont you watch any news .)

l dont understand you!!
 
Maenad said:
Well, I often wonder why atheists defend islam so. One would think islam is not a religion. They also defend the islamic theocracies with 'well if that's the majority of THU PEOPLE want, it's OK.' There are also Christians and Jews in those countries. So what about the 'rights of the minorities' which is their great refrain in this country?
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l know an atheist who supporst crusaders

believe or not but many atheists hate muslims
 
Medusa said:
arabian spring has been supported by US and teh europeans

saddam ,qaddafi ,mubarek ,assad ,

dont you watch any news .)
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Well, those countries voted in islamic theocracies. Maybe YOU don't watch any news.
 
What a cesspool of over-generalizations this thread is.
 
Maenad said:
Well, those countries voted in islamic theocracies. Maybe YOU don't watch any news.
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of course! because they were islamist and america knew this fact

however they supported them!!!!!!!!!
isnt it clear enough ?

whether you like or not

those monsters are still being supported by free america

at least a little honesty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what were american soldiers doing in libya ??

all of these countries are turning to a radical islamist country!!!!!!!!!!!!

honesty pleaseee
act like world police then accuse muslims of hating america

l already live in ME

but some needs to watch the news everytime
america also knows turkey is being pushed into islamism which they claim to fight against

but they still support them

have to admit

imperialism is as disgusting as those monsters

:vomit:
 
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Medusa said:
of course! because they were islamist and america knew this fact

however they supported them!!!!!!!!!
isnt it clear enough ?

whether you like or not

thoser monsters are still being supported by free america

at least a little honesty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what were american soldiers doing in libya ??

all of these countries are turning to a radical islamist country!!!!!!!!!!!!

honesty pleaseeeeeeeeeeee
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So, you are saying that America wanted those countries to be islamic theocracies. I don't. I think no one expected arab spring to have that result. Maybe except Obama. And IMO after listening to his speech in Cairo, I think he orchestrated it. And BTW, there are Christians and Jews in those countries. What about THEIR rights?
 
Maenad said:
So, you are saying that America wanted those countries to be islamic theocracies. I don't. I think no one expected arab spring to have that result. Maybe except Obama. And IMO after listening to his speech in Cairo, I think he orchestrated it. And BTW, there are Christians and Jews in those countries. What about THEIR rights?
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yes

cons are never believable!!!!!



obama is responsible for everything



believe me l dislike obama when he is always interested in ME

but l am not a bigoted american

and l cant ignore he is more ethical and reasonable than many other presidents


we protected their rights for hundreds of years against civilized crusaders


note ; cia agents are smarter than many think

they all wanted to form ME as a moderate islamic region ,easy to control

,easier to control
 
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Maenad said:
They also defend the islamic theocracies with 'well if that's the majority of THU PEOPLE want, it's OK.'
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I've heard this charge.

But never seen it done.

I assume you have multiple citations to illustrate this assertion?
 
Medusa said:
l know an atheist who supporst crusaders

believe or not but many atheists hate muslims
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true. I know atheists, some of whom would very much be regarded as left leaning, who the muslims - and any believer - with a passion.

and many others who don't hate, but consider them backward due to their religion .... but they also think the same of chrisians.
 
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