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Is religion just a story for adults?

Voxx said:
Set into motion at the first cause.
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Which cause?

Why does it matter how many behaviors lead up to an event?
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Because each event requires a thought and an action, and there are an infinite number of variables (however minute) which determine each event and which action is taken. An event is only 'set' in retrospect, because time is linear.

The event will affect the next event and the next in a determinable way.
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You could spend a hundred years writing a program, and assuming there was a computer powerful enough to crunch the variables, it could never accurately determine a single person's actions throughout the course of their life. It could only determine trends.
 
Amadeus said:
Which cause?



Because each event requires a thought and an action, and there are an infinite number of variables (however minute) which determine each event and which action is taken. An event is only 'set' in retrospect, because time is linear.



You could spend a hundred years writing a program, and assuming there was a computer powerful enough to crunch the variables, it could never accurately determine a single person's actions throughout the course of their life. It could only determine trends.
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I do not know the cause. We aren't able to observe it.

'Thoughts' and actions are events themselves. Part of the physical world.
Variables? What variables? Imagine an event, frame by frame. From one infinitesimal moment to the next, the physical objects act and react on each other without any way to change it, without any disconnect. Causes and effects flow continuously. There is no variation. Particle A is in motion with a certain momentum and collides with Particle B and momentum is transferred, and B moves on to C, and so on.

Why couldn't it determine the behavior to the most precise detail, if the computer was programmed with all of the information about the location of every particle and every physical law? It would calculate the trajectory of particle A and see that it will collide with B and calculate the transfer of momentum, and then calculate the path of B, then the path of C, and it will process the motion of every particle in the system. Why wouldn't it be able to calculate the future paths of all the particles, if it had that processing power?
 
Voxx said:
Why couldn't it determine the behavior to the most precise detail, if the computer was programmed with all of the information about the location of every particle and every physical law?
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How could a computer be programmed with events that haven't happened yet? That's the only way it could possibly compute and predict a person's actions with any accuracy.

If I jump out the window right now and fall to my death, just to prove a point, would any computer have been able to predict that from the time of my birth?
 
Amadeus said:
How could a computer be programmed with events that haven't happened yet? That's the only way it could possibly compute and predict a person's actions with any accuracy.

If I jump out the window right now and fall to my death, just to prove a point, would any computer have been able to predict that from the time of my birth?
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It isn't programmed with the event, like it's some kind of movie.. It is programmed to MODEL the future by using the rules of the physical world and all of the information about the matter in the system. The position/velocity/acceleration of all the particles and the type of substance it is, etc.. all of this is currently observable information.

We have computers that model future events. Weather prediction, economic market prediction, chess-playing computers... But their processing power is limited, so the model is imperfect.

If such an advanced computer existed that had all information regarding the physical laws and the matter that has effected your life, and was able to process all that information in a model... of course it could predict your death at the time of your birth. It could predict your birth before your mother was born. Why shouldn't it be able to?
 
Voxx said:
If such an advanced computer existed that had all information regarding the physical laws and the matter that has effected your life, and was able to process all that information in a model... of course it could predict your death at the time of your birth. It could predict your birth before your mother was born. Why shouldn't it be able to?
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The computer is a conceptual paradox, and could only work if it was programmed with future events. It would also have to be programmed to take into account what it is predicting, since if it could accurately predict the future then the future could be altered.

You haven't followed your own logic to its natural conclusion.
 
Amadeus said:
The computer is a conceptual paradox, and could only work if it was programmed with future events. It would also have to be programmed to take into account what it is predicting, since if it could accurately predict the future then the future could be altered.

You haven't followed your own logic to its natural conclusion.
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I am aware of this. Please stop making assumptions about me.

Of course the machine could not really exist in its entirety. Maybe the universe is finite, and therefore we may think the machine could calculate the events, but it is not so. The machine is part of the universe and it would have to calculate itself and the effects it would have on the universe. This would cause an infinite regression, like if two mirrors were put opposite each other. It would require infinite energy to compute. That doesn't make the idea less legitimate. It's just a thought experiment. Put the computer in another realm from our universe, and give it all the information about the universe, and don't let it interact with us. It's basically a secular version of the religious idea of predestination.

But there may be a way for it to work. Suppose we decrease the scope of the computation. Put the computer in a galaxy far far away, and feed it all of the information about earth and the matter relevant to earth - such as the solar system, maybe even the entire Milky Way galaxy. Do not let anyone from the earth interact with the computer. Then you have a closed, finite system. Then the computer could predict accurately the future of things on earth for many millions of years. It would not be perfect, because things outside the galaxy affect the galaxy, and the earth. But it would be very precise in a certain timeframe.
 
Voxx said:
I am aware of this. Please stop making assumptions about me.
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It's predetermined. I have no free will.

In all seriousness, and with all due respect, I think that you are over-thinking things just a little bit. If it takes parallel dimensions and infinite energy just to predict what flavour of porn I'm going to watch, I think the premise needs a bit of tweaking.
 
Amadeus said:
It's predetermined. I have no free will.

In all seriousness, and with all due respect, I think that you are over-thinking things just a little bit. If it takes parallel dimensions and infinite energy just to predict what flavour of porn I'm going to watch, I think the premise needs a bit of tweaking.
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It isn't complicated. I put it down a couple times in 4 steps.

Voxx said:
1. all physical objects behave according to the rules of the physical world 2. the brain is a physical object 3. the mind (or cognition, if you wish) is a phenomenon that occurs as a result of the processes of the brain
Therefore, humans do not have free will. This means that we cannot place any true blame on people for their behavior, or their positions. We are the result of our circumstances.
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Stopandthink said:
1) if you consider Harry potter and the bible to be about the same then it I will quit wasting your time and mine
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Of course not, that's silly. The Bible has sold more copies. Other than that, though...

2) if you need evidence for an historical claim and you even discredit witness testimony, then why would you expect me to believe what you say?
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Not discredit witness testimony. Again, I'm not denying a man named Jesus existed, just that he was divine. I grant you the first premise, but it gains you nothing as a whole.

4) uncaused cause
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What makes you think the universe needs a cause?
 
Tetelestai said:
Then I don't care if you don't like that I worship my Lord.
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I couldn't care less what you do. I still have every right to point out that I think what you do is idiotic.
 
Tetelestai said:
Free will explains everything. If you were a parent and trained your child in doing good and what is right, are you responsible if he goes out and kill someone... after they become an adult? No, you're not. They have the free will to totally ignore all the training you gave them. They will be punished for what they did, not you.
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That's a dodge and you know it. The part you (rather obviously) left out was would you be held accountable if you had foreknowledge of your childs' actions?
The reason this distinction is so important is that while the concept of "free will" might seem to be a convenient excuse for why the world is going to pot, it is meaningless as justification for god's ineptitude if he has foreknowledge of the world going to pot and is capable of preventing it.

Tetelestai said:
The same goes for when they excel and do the right thing, they reap the rewards, not you. You could be the worst parent in the world and your child goes out and does the right and good thing. They stand on their own works... the parent has NOTHING to do with it.
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I don't entirely agree with this statement as society usually does give parents some credit if their child is successful, but that isn't important. What is important, is that the parent\child analogy fails here. Organized religion generally expects its followers to thank God for every single good thing that happens to them. A ridiculous concept in my book. If god is responsible for every good thing, he is also responsible for every bad thing, but this seems to be lost on the believers.

Tetelestai said:
God gave us the free will to do what we wanted. We can chose the right way or the wrong way. But WE are the ones who make the choice. God also accounted for that. He took the penalty for what we did to redeem us. So, by far, He is a better Father than most here on earth. I have never heard of an earthly father willing to sacrifice himself to pay for their child's murder. Thus, your argument is a straw man.
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A strawman?!? How have I changed your argument into a more convenient one for me? What argument???

Tetelestai said:
Yes, we are here to debate and I will use ANY and ALL tools as I deem necessary. If it comes off as preachy, it's because the information has direct relevance to what I am saying.
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Your rant about how great god is and how ridiculous the unbelievers are had less than zero relevance to what you were arguing.

Tetelestai said:
I will not allow you to hamstring my abilities because you are offended. That would be like me saying you can't use philosophy and science to make your point. Get real.
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:lamo
Hamstring your abilities?! If you have to use preaching to get a point across, you're basically admitting that you just can't use logic.
Oh, and preaching is not a rhetorical tool, it is a self-gratification tool, much like masturbation.
 
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