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Marxist-Leninist Atheism

LowDown

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Marxist-Leninist atheism is part of the Marxist-Leninist philosophy. It rejects religion and relies on a materialist understanding of nature. Marxist-Leninism promotes atheism and argues that religion should be abolished. It has its roots in the writings of Ludwig Feuerbach, George Wihelm Friedrich Hegel, Karl Marx, and V.I. Lenin. (Wikipedia)

Feuerbach was mainly motivated by a desire to remove certain limitations on human behavior that traditionally were imposed by religious belief. The trick was to remove the restrictions that one doesn't like while retaining those one does. How to get rid of a restriction about sex without also destroying the prohibition against violations of human rights and dignity since those prohibitions are there traditionally because God says so? He attempted to address fundamental concerns of human rights and dignity, morality, and the purpose of existence by reformulating them in a way that was not supernatural. His solution was to create a belief centered on worship of humanity. Marx was attracted by Feuerbach’s way of thinking and incorporated it into much of his own writing.

Marx tended to see religion in terms of either a means of controlling the people for the benefit of the ruling classes and at the same time a means for the poor and dispossessed to find comfort and consolation. Marx disapproved of religion in both senses because it turned the poor away from the idea that they could improve their lot through revolution. Marx thought that with revolution and the realization of the communist utopia that religion would disappear altogether there being no more reason for it to exist. Marx clearly saw elimination or undermining of religion as a means of deliberately provoking violent revolution against the established order.

Lenin rejected the idea that religion could be replaced with a Feuerbach type worship of humanity and insisted on a purely materialistic philosophy, going further than Marx and many other Marxists were willing to go. According to Lenin a true communist could only be atheistic.

Official policy in the USSR under Lenin and later Soviet rulers was that religion was tolerated, but the state was to do whatever was deemed necessary in order to eliminate it. Anti-religion efforts thus became a central part of the attempt to produce the “New Soviet Man.”

The thought initially was that religion would die away spontaneously with the coming of the socialist system. When this didn’t happen anti-religious campaigns were begun. Huge amounts of money and resources were spent, legislation was passed, arrests were made, and violence was used to suppress religion, but the whole effort failed.

Refusing to accept the idea that it might be the oppression of the Soviet state that caused people to hold on to their religious beliefs, Soviet leaders re-adapted their thinking about religion such that religion became the cause of harsh conditions in the Soviet Union rather than a result of those conditions. Religion was thus blamed for at least part of the Soviet Union’s failures.

Marx’s understanding of religion underlines his basic lack of understanding of human nature. He thought that people would give up religion when the political conditions supporting it ceased to exist. He was wrong about this because he was wrong about why people believe in the first place. By the same token he was wrong in his idea that the state would cease to exist when the socialist idea was realized. In truth the Soviet state became an entrenched class interest in itself that appropriated resources for itself to the detriment of everyone else. A basic understanding of human nature would have allowed Marx to foresee this. He thought that it would be possible to mold men in the image of the ideal socialist – that it would be possible to create the New Soviet Man. This also was a miserable failure resulting only in a selfish, self centered and nihilistic generation of apparatachiks that plague the Russian Republic even to this day. He thought that if the people held property in common they would work as hard to improve it as they would if they owned it themselves. The squalor, want and waste of captial that characterized the Soviet Union puts the lie to that idea.
 
I'm surprised that Marx actually believed that religion was some sort of adaptation for those in lower classes. While yes, religion is more prevalent among those who are in the lower class "correct if I'm wrong", it's also prevalent in the upper classes. I would also find it difficult to worship a species that's normally busying itself with trying to make its own existence as painful and meaningless as possible. The government is no more justified in quelling religion than it would be in making all atheists attend mandatory prayer sessions/church attendance.
 
What does any of that have to do with the truth of any religious claim? We all know that the USSR failed abysmally to be socialist. We also all know that cultural changes, like abandoning religion, don't take place overnight, despite the Soviet leaders wanting it to. We all agree that trying to force people to adhere to one belief or another is wrong. So what's your point?

Actually, I have a more fundamental question. I've head people argue that religion is beneficial, as opposed to arguing that it is true. Suppose that there is no god, shouldn't people then abandon religion? Or should they adhere to it despite it being false? Obviously, atheists should (and many of us would) embrace religion if it were shown to be true. But do you think the opposite is true? Should religion live or die by its veracity?
 
Marxist-Leninist atheism is part of the Marxist-Leninist philosophy. It rejects religion and relies on a materialist understanding of nature. Marxist-Leninism promotes atheism and argues that religion should be abolished. It has its roots in the writings of Ludwig Feuerbach, George Wihelm Friedrich Hegel, Karl Marx, and V.I. Lenin. (Wikipedia)

Feuerbach was mainly motivated by a desire to remove certain limitations on human behavior that traditionally were imposed by religious belief. The trick was to remove the restrictions that one doesn't like while retaining those one does. How to get rid of a restriction about sex without also destroying the prohibition against violations of human rights and dignity since those prohibitions are there traditionally because God says so? He attempted to address fundamental concerns of human rights and dignity, morality, and the purpose of existence by reformulating them in a way that was not supernatural. His solution was to create a belief centered on worship of humanity. Marx was attracted by Feuerbach’s way of thinking and incorporated it into much of his own writing.

Marx tended to see religion in terms of either a means of controlling the people for the benefit of the ruling classes and at the same time a means for the poor and dispossessed to find comfort and consolation. Marx disapproved of religion in both senses because it turned the poor away from the idea that they could improve their lot through revolution. Marx thought that with revolution and the realization of the communist utopia that religion would disappear altogether there being no more reason for it to exist. Marx clearly saw elimination or undermining of religion as a means of deliberately provoking violent revolution against the established order.

Lenin rejected the idea that religion could be replaced with a Feuerbach type worship of humanity and insisted on a purely materialistic philosophy, going further than Marx and many other Marxists were willing to go. According to Lenin a true communist could only be atheistic.

Official policy in the USSR under Lenin and later Soviet rulers was that religion was tolerated, but the state was to do whatever was deemed necessary in order to eliminate it. Anti-religion efforts thus became a central part of the attempt to produce the “New Soviet Man.”

The thought initially was that religion would die away spontaneously with the coming of the socialist system. When this didn’t happen anti-religious campaigns were begun. Huge amounts of money and resources were spent, legislation was passed, arrests were made, and violence was used to suppress religion, but the whole effort failed.

Refusing to accept the idea that it might be the oppression of the Soviet state that caused people to hold on to their religious beliefs, Soviet leaders re-adapted their thinking about religion such that religion became the cause of harsh conditions in the Soviet Union rather than a result of those conditions. Religion was thus blamed for at least part of the Soviet Union’s failures.

Marx’s understanding of religion underlines his basic lack of understanding of human nature. He thought that people would give up religion when the political conditions supporting it ceased to exist. He was wrong about this because he was wrong about why people believe in the first place. By the same token he was wrong in his idea that the state would cease to exist when the socialist idea was realized. In truth the Soviet state became an entrenched class interest in itself that appropriated resources for itself to the detriment of everyone else. A basic understanding of human nature would have allowed Marx to foresee this. He thought that it would be possible to mold men in the image of the ideal socialist – that it would be possible to create the New Soviet Man. This also was a miserable failure resulting only in a selfish, self centered and nihilistic generation of apparatachiks that plague the Russian Republic even to this day. He thought that if the people held property in common they would work as hard to improve it as they would if they owned it themselves. The squalor, want and waste of captial that characterized the Soviet Union puts the lie to that idea.

unfortunately ,he was right

religion has always been used by the dominant powers that control the societies .
 
Marxist-Leninist atheism is part of the Marxist-Leninist philosophy. It rejects religion and relies on a materialist understanding of nature. Marxist-Leninism promotes atheism and argues that religion should be abolished. It has its roots in the writings of Ludwig Feuerbach, George Wihelm Friedrich Hegel, Karl Marx, and V.I. Lenin. (Wikipedia)

Feuerbach was mainly motivated by a desire to remove certain limitations on human behavior that traditionally were imposed by religious belief. The trick was to remove the restrictions that one doesn't like while retaining those one does. How to get rid of a restriction about sex without also destroying the prohibition against violations of human rights and dignity since those prohibitions are there traditionally because God says so? He attempted to address fundamental concerns of human rights and dignity, morality, and the purpose of existence by reformulating them in a way that was not supernatural. His solution was to create a belief centered on worship of humanity. Marx was attracted by Feuerbach’s way of thinking and incorporated it into much of his own writing.

Marx tended to see religion in terms of either a means of controlling the people for the benefit of the ruling classes and at the same time a means for the poor and dispossessed to find comfort and consolation. Marx disapproved of religion in both senses because it turned the poor away from the idea that they could improve their lot through revolution. Marx thought that with revolution and the realization of the communist utopia that religion would disappear altogether there being no more reason for it to exist. Marx clearly saw elimination or undermining of religion as a means of deliberately provoking violent revolution against the established order.

Lenin rejected the idea that religion could be replaced with a Feuerbach type worship of humanity and insisted on a purely materialistic philosophy, going further than Marx and many other Marxists were willing to go. According to Lenin a true communist could only be atheistic.

Official policy in the USSR under Lenin and later Soviet rulers was that religion was tolerated, but the state was to do whatever was deemed necessary in order to eliminate it. Anti-religion efforts thus became a central part of the attempt to produce the “New Soviet Man.”

The thought initially was that religion would die away spontaneously with the coming of the socialist system. When this didn’t happen anti-religious campaigns were begun. Huge amounts of money and resources were spent, legislation was passed, arrests were made, and violence was used to suppress religion, but the whole effort failed.

Refusing to accept the idea that it might be the oppression of the Soviet state that caused people to hold on to their religious beliefs, Soviet leaders re-adapted their thinking about religion such that religion became the cause of harsh conditions in the Soviet Union rather than a result of those conditions. Religion was thus blamed for at least part of the Soviet Union’s failures.

Marx’s understanding of religion underlines his basic lack of understanding of human nature. He thought that people would give up religion when the political conditions supporting it ceased to exist. He was wrong about this because he was wrong about why people believe in the first place. By the same token he was wrong in his idea that the state would cease to exist when the socialist idea was realized. In truth the Soviet state became an entrenched class interest in itself that appropriated resources for itself to the detriment of everyone else. A basic understanding of human nature would have allowed Marx to foresee this. He thought that it would be possible to mold men in the image of the ideal socialist – that it would be possible to create the New Soviet Man. This also was a miserable failure resulting only in a selfish, self centered and nihilistic generation of apparatachiks that plague the Russian Republic even to this day. He thought that if the people held property in common they would work as hard to improve it as they would if they owned it themselves. The squalor, want and waste of captial that characterized the Soviet Union puts the lie to that idea.

Marx and Lenin were both idiots and had nothing to do with Atheism.

Atheism isnt a social belief system no matter how many times you try to make that claim. Atheism isnt even a system of beliefs. Atheism is simple a term used to label people who do not believe in gods. Atheists do not believe a certain way in some Leftist collective scheme. Atheists are actually individuals with millions of different belief systems among them. But religious people seem to predominantly view the word from a collectivists lens, and assume that everyone else must belong to some collective belief system. So the religious latch onto Communism and assert a lie that Atheism = Communism. But Atheists find such a attempt to be rather small minded and delusional religious rhetoric.


Atheism existed before Marx and Lenin were even a twinkle of genes in their evolutionary ancestors. Atheism predates all religions.
 
What does any of that have to do with the truth of any religious claim? We all know that the USSR failed abysmally to be socialist.

No, it just failed. Period.

It got a log closer to be truly socialist than most governments, actually nationalizing all industry. Hence the failure.
 
Marx and Lenin were both idiots and had nothing to do with Atheism.

Atheism isnt a social belief system no matter how many times you try to make that claim. Atheism isnt even a system of beliefs. Atheism is simple a term used to label people who do not believe in gods. Atheists do not believe a certain way in some Leftist collective scheme. Atheists are actually individuals with millions of different belief systems among them. But religious people seem to predominantly view the word from a collectivists lens, and assume that everyone else must belong to some collective belief system. So the religious latch onto Communism and assert a lie that Atheism = Communism. But Atheists find such a attempt to be rather small minded and delusional religious rhetoric.


Atheism existed before Marx and Lenin were even a twinkle of genes in their evolutionary ancestors. Atheism predates all religions.

so ,some of them may be more ignorant than many believers ?
 
Marx and Lenin were both idiots and had nothing to do with Atheism.

Atheism isnt a social belief system no matter how many times you try to make that claim. Atheism isnt even a system of beliefs. Atheism is simple a term used to label people who do not believe in gods. Atheists do not believe a certain way in some Leftist collective scheme. Atheists are actually individuals with millions of different belief systems among them. But religious people seem to predominantly view the word from a collectivists lens, and assume that everyone else must belong to some collective belief system. So the religious latch onto Communism and assert a lie that Atheism = Communism. But Atheists find such a attempt to be rather small minded and delusional religious rhetoric.


Atheism existed before Marx and Lenin were even a twinkle of genes in their evolutionary ancestors. Atheism predates all religions.

Here we go with this pathetic attempt on the part of atheists to put distance between themselves and one of the few big experiments with official state atheism. The USSR even followed the recommended course of the New Atheists and attempted to abolish religion. The results speak for themselves.
 
unfortunately ,he was right

religion has always been used by the dominant powers that control the societies .

Yes, and Stalin just used terrorism, murder, imprisonment, torture, espionage, black propaganda, starvation, and other forms oppression to control Soviet society. Do you regard Stalin's methods as superior?
 
Yes, and Stalin just used terrorism, murder, imprisonment, torture, espionage, black propaganda, starvation, and other forms oppression to control Soviet society. Do you regard Stalin's methods as superior?

l am not stalinist

but religions are still being used by teh wild capitalism
 
Here we go with this pathetic attempt on the part of atheists to put distance between themselves and one of the few big experiments with official state atheism. The USSR even followed the recommended course of the New Atheists and attempted to abolish religion. The results speak for themselves.

Theocracies (state theism) don't go well either. What's your point?
 
I would like to add a few points.

(1) While the Soviet Marxists had established and brutally enforced state atheism, it is not quite clear why atheism should be a necessary requirement in Marxism. Even within the narrow circle of Leninists, there was, before the Catastrophe of 1917, a group of so-called "God-builders": Lunacharsky, Bazarov, Bogdanov, Maxim Gorky - their proposals were similar to the Nazi attempts at "neo-paganism" (big surprise).
Radical socialism in not hostile to religion at all, and often presents itself as "true Christianity" - from Bellamy in USA to Hugo Chavez.

(2) In addition to the intellectual tradition described by LowDown, there were the simple "dynamics of revolution" in a country where the Orthodox Church was virtually fused with the old regime; atheists among the revolutionaries had better chances of presenting themselves as the most radical and uncompromising variety, and most likely to end up on the top in a major upheaval. In a country with a strong secular tradition, the Communist radical would be better off exploiting religion, not pushing it away, perhaps.

(3) The Soviet atheism as a part of the indoctrination system was hardly something most Western atheists would recognize. Basically, you were supposed to believe that there is no God - an enforced mental disorder, rather than cold-headed empiricism. Not to mention all the irrational, quasi-religious features and bizarre rituals of the Soviet life under Stalin and later on.
 
We all know that the USSR failed abysmally to be socialist.

Why would you say that? It had succeeded brilliantly.

It was not the democratic, "libertarian" socialism you may imagine, but socialism by any reasonable definition: private property gone; the "class enemies" destroyed; all the "ills of capitalism" - from unemployment to boom-and-bust cycles - abolished by decree; wise government scientifically measures and directs every aspect of economic life, etc. And it worked for long 70 years! Too bad they turned out to be 70 years of nightmare.

Suppose that there is no god, shouldn't people then abandon religion? Or should they adhere to it despite it being false? Obviously, atheists should (and many of us would) embrace religion if it were shown to be true. But do you think the opposite is true? Should religion live or die by its veracity?

A lot of religious people understand that there's no empirical evidence of God's existence. They remain religious for a number of reasons, and one of them is the notion that if religion will fail, so will morality. The spectacle of Russians rejecting established religion and then proceeding to massacre millions is hardly something to ignore, even if causation is not truly established.

I would say, let every person evolve at his own pace. Atheism is a good thing when it is a product of rational thought, and when it is accompanied by a consistent moral system, so that the religious taboos are not replaced with vacuum - or other set of arbitrary dogma, usually much worse. Preaching atheism to the masses, a la Hitchens and Harris, is a dubious enterprise.
 
No, it just failed. Period.

It got a log closer to be truly socialist than most governments, actually nationalizing all industry. Hence the failure.

Nationalizing for the benefit of a small ruling class. That has much more in common with the aristocracies that socialism is a counter reaction to, than with socialism itself. Lots of nationalism doesn't mean socialism. Collective ownership for the common good does. Collective ownership in name only for the good of a tiny elite is about as far from socialism as you can get.

Here we go with this pathetic attempt on the part of atheists to put distance between themselves and one of the few big experiments with official state atheism. The USSR even followed the recommended course of the New Atheists and attempted to abolish religion. The results speak for themselves.

Are you really suggesting that it was a lack of religion that made the Soviet Union such a terrible place? And that enforcing a specific religion would be an improvement in some way? Because you'll need a lot of evidence to back up a claim like that.

I also don't know of a single prominent atheist (and certainly not myself) who advocates for a legally enforced abolition of religion. Dawkins doesn't. Harris doesn't. Krauss doesn't. Hitchins didn't. If such a movement exists, it is very small and fringe. What we do advocate for is not enforcing any religious rules on those who don't adhere to those religions. And that scientific knowledge and morality that is not based on ancient writings cast sufficient doubt upon the veracity of any religious claims that they are almost guaranteed not to be true. That's pretty much all that atheists advocate.

This entire thread is nothing but false equivalency between beliefs and the lack of beliefs. There is no equivalency at all. No moreso than an equivalency between different kinds of pasta and no pasta.
 
Why would you say that? It had succeeded brilliantly.

It was not the democratic, "libertarian" socialism you may imagine, but socialism by any reasonable definition: private property gone; the "class enemies" destroyed; all the "ills of capitalism" - from unemployment to boom-and-bust cycles - abolished by decree; wise government scientifically measures and directs every aspect of economic life, etc. And it worked for long 70 years! Too bad they turned out to be 70 years of nightmare.



A lot of religious people understand that there's no empirical evidence of God's existence. They remain religious for a number of reasons, and one of them is the notion that if religion will fail, so will morality. The spectacle of Russians rejecting established religion and then proceeding to massacre millions is hardly something to ignore, even if causation is not truly established.

I would say, let every person evolve at his own pace. Atheism is a good thing when it is a product of rational thought, and when it is accompanied by a consistent moral system, so that the religious taboos are not replaced with vacuum - or other set of arbitrary dogma, usually much worse. Preaching atheism to the masses, a la Hitchens and Harris, is a dubious enterprise.

Your last statement is food for thought, but the solution is not, I think, to be found in letting people remain in the troglodyte state they are in................
 
Here we go with this pathetic attempt on the part of atheists to put distance between themselves and one of the few big experiments with official state atheism. The USSR even followed the recommended course of the New Atheists and attempted to abolish religion. The results speak for themselves.

The masses were not ready for atheism in that time and place, so what? In parts of the world, atheism is currently a majority, without any cajoling or enforcement on the part of the state. In a couple generations, this could well be the case even in the US. What's pathetic is your attempt to link nonbelievers to stalinism.
 
Collective ownership for the common good does. Collective ownership in name only for the good of a tiny elite is about as far from socialism as you can get.

But any coerced collective ownership is always "collective ownership in name only" then. Collectivization requires enforcement, enforcement requires hierarchy. Those on the top will have longer reach and better access.

Your "socialism" appears to be entirely "socialism" of voluntary communes and cooperatives existing within a framework of free market rules defending their property rights. Kind of like the Amish (to keep it close enough to the topic).
 
Why would you say that? It had succeeded brilliantly.

It was not the democratic, "libertarian" socialism you may imagine, but socialism by any reasonable definition: private property gone; the "class enemies" destroyed; all the "ills of capitalism" - from unemployment to boom-and-bust cycles - abolished by decree; wise government scientifically measures and directs every aspect of economic life, etc. And it worked for long 70 years! Too bad they turned out to be 70 years of nightmare.

Decreeing it and doing it are very different things. The Soviet Union decreed a lot of things. It didn't live up to very many of them. Private property and class distinctions were very much a part of the Soviet Union. Private property for the small elite ruling class and none for anyone else. As I have said several times, the Soviet Union was very much like the aristocratic system that preceded it. It adopted only the trappings of socialism, not any of its actual ideals and goals. Democratic rule and personal liberty are hallmarks of socialism. It's not socialism without them. It's something else.

A lot of religious people understand that there's no empirical evidence of God's existence. They remain religious for a number of reasons, and one of them is the notion that if religion will fail, so will morality. The spectacle of Russians rejecting established religion and then proceeding to massacre millions is hardly something to ignore, even if causation is not truly established.

Causation is completely not established. The Soviet Union was not dissimilar from any previous tyrannical regime, least of all the ones that slaughtered people based on religious ideologies. Neither is there any evidence to suggest that the average non-religious Soviet citizen lacked morality in any way. Nor did the non-religious members of every human civilization throughout history. There's no reason to think that any non religious person has any difficulty understanding the different between right and wrong.

I would say, let every person evolve at his own pace. Atheism is a good thing when it is a product of rational thought, and when it is accompanied by a consistent moral system, so that the religious taboos are not replaced with vacuum - or other set of arbitrary dogma, usually much worse. Preaching atheism to the masses, a la Hitchens and Harris, is a dubious enterprise.

Fortunately, atheism does not include a dogma, arbitrary or otherwise, nor does the sum total human philosophy or morality require religion. There cannot be a vacuum. And every person does "evolve" at their own pace. That's why atheists do not attempt to enforce atheism. That's why dogmatic adherence to a position without reasons why is contrary to most atheists. That's why atheism and science find themselves natural allies. Despite the fear by some religious people that morality disappears without a god to enforce it, there is simply nothing to suggest that fear is true. There is nothing dubious about asserting that an unfounded idea is false.

But any coerced collective ownership is always "collective ownership in name only" then. Collectivization requires enforcement, enforcement requires hierarchy. Those on the top will have longer reach and better access.

Your "socialism" appears to be entirely "socialism" of voluntary communes and cooperatives existing within a framework of free market rules defending their property rights. Kind of like the Amish (to keep it close enough to the topic).

You seem to misunderstand the actual meanings of the words "voluntary" and "coercion". A society collectively agreeing to do something is not coercion. A market is not necessary. Hierarchy needn't be anything that extends beyond specific spheres and tasks. Any civilization requires some kind enforcement. Property is not necessary, either. Nor is collective ownership necessarily coercive. A society that agrees to do so is voluntarily adopting it. Your model is based on false assumptions and exaggerated positions.
 
Nationalizing for the benefit of a small ruling class.

Sorry, but that's a feature, not a bug.

Are you really suggesting that it was a lack of religion that made the Soviet Union such a terrible place?

Well, it certainly didn't seem to help. Isn't the claim that it will be all unicorns and butterflies once religion is gone?

And that enforcing a specific religion would be an improvement in some way? Because you'll need a lot of evidence to back up a claim like that.

Enforcing religion is counterproductive. If it departs the culture there's not much to be done. The patient is already dead. Evidence? You guys use evidence, do you?

I also don't know of a single prominent atheist (and certainly not myself) who advocates for a legally enforced abolition of religion. Dawkins doesn't. Harris doesn't. Krauss doesn't. Hitchins didn't.

I beg to differ. All the prominent new atheists seem to be calling for an end to religion. At least that's what Hitchens et al. seems to be saying when he calls religion the source of all human evil or words to that effect. Here's a sample:

 
Here we go with this pathetic attempt on the part of atheists to put distance between themselves and one of the few big experiments with official state atheism. The USSR even followed the recommended course of the New Atheists and attempted to abolish religion. The results speak for themselves.

lol Thanx for your strawman argument.

I would never support State Atheism anymore than I would support State Religions. And I am not a New Atheist I am a Strong Atheist, so go argue with whoever it is that you thought I was.

Try as you might you cannot relate Atheism with Communism at least not without a huge amount of intellectual dishonesty.
 
Sorry, but that's a feature, not a bug.



Well, it certainly didn't seem to help. Isn't the claim that it will be all unicorns and butterflies once religion is gone?



Enforcing religion is counterproductive. If it departs the culture there's not much to be done. The patient is already dead. Evidence? You guys use evidence, do you?



I beg to differ. All the prominent new atheists seem to be calling for an end to religion. At least that's what Hitchens et al. seems to be saying when he calls religion the source of all human evil or words to that effect. Here's a sample:



There is a big difference between a individual calling for the end of religion and a government doing it.
 
Private property and class distinctions were very much a part of the Soviet Union. Private property for the small elite ruling class and none for anyone else.

Nonsense. The "ruling class" had operated entirely by virtue of being the bureaucracy of the state - nobody had any private property on any scale worth mentioning. Class distinctions also were null and void. Anybody could go to any height of power, assuming total loyalty to the system and complete absence of any normal morality.

As I have said several times, the Soviet Union was very much like the aristocratic system that preceded it. .

Which makes no sense whatsoever. Centralized absolutist rule with total enslavement of most citizens - like the Czarism before the 1860s - sort of, in a way, only much harsher. "Aristocratic system" - not even close.

Democratic rule and personal liberty are hallmarks of socialism. It's not socialism without them. It's something else.

Democratic rule and personal liberty are incompatible with socialism, in the long run. Socialism with them is not socialism, but something else.


The Soviet Union was not dissimilar from any previous tyrannical regime.

It was a very new kind of "tyrannical regime". Never before, with the partial exception of the Terror in revolutionary France, so many people were killed out of loyalty to pure collectivist abstractions like "classes" - regardless of what they think or do (as with religious tyrannies), regardless even of who they are ethnically (as with the Nazis; although ethnic persecutions had also gathered speed under Stalin). It is the final and complete triumph of dehumanizing theory in service of the raw power of modern, technological state.

There's no reason to think that any non religious person has any difficulty understanding the different between right and wrong.

But there's also no reason to think that any person whose morality was framed in religious terms will smoothly switch to the "God-free" version. Taboos were gone, and replaced not with nothing or some intuitive morality, but with the hideous morality of the "new communist man", at least in some minds - numerous enough to inflict a mass slaughter on unprecedented scale.



Despite the fear by some religious people that morality disappears without a god to enforce it, there is simply nothing to suggest that fear is true.

Well, I am not a religious person, but there's simply too much suggesting exactly that, in many instances, under many circumstances. It is not an iron-clad law, obviously. But we need to develop and affirm a consistent non-religious morality first, before going full speed with knocking down the flawed, authority-based, dysfunctional but still existing - warts and all - morality. Our fierce disagreement on such key issue as meaning and significance of coercion and freedom of choice, for example, illustrates rather well that we atheists are not quite done with that project yet.


A society collectively agreeing to do something is not coercion.

A society is an abstraction. Real, individual people are real. Saying that if you are being coerced by "society", it's no coercion makes no sense whatsoever.

A market is not necessary.

Yes, it is. By definition: people voluntarily interacting with each other is "market". Saying that "market is not necessary" is tantamount to saying "freedom of choice is not necessary".

Nor is collective ownership necessarily coercive.

In a commune or among the Amish - no. In a society at large, the communes themselves need to be protected from depredations of those individuals and organizations that don't give a fig about their voluntary collective ownership. Likewise, individuals who do not wish to be a part of the communes need to be protected in their ability to leave, acquire and own non-collective property, etc. The free-market rules cover voluntary "socialist" collectives and individuals, and all forms of organization in between. The socialist rules (on the State, coercive level) deprive everyone of their rights.
 
There is a big difference between a individual calling for the end of religion and a government doing it.

Of course, of course. Nobody here is calling for censorship. But is it a right thing to do, to go on an "atheist crusade" beyond polite skepticism and above securing the place for atheists under the sun? What if I convince someone that there's no reason to believe in the Imaginary Friend, and that someone will interpret his newly-found freedom from superstition as a license to crack skulls - Hey, it's not like I will burn in hell? Will I be responsible?

I should be free to explain and promote my atheism, of course. But should I actually exercise this right in front of the broadest possible audience?
 
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No, it just failed. Period.

It got a log closer to be truly socialist than most governments, actually nationalizing all industry. Hence the failure.

Nationalizing =/= socialist, if it did, then absolute monarchies are socialist.

nationalizing is ONLY socialist if it leads to democratization.
 
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