Killed in the Name of Belief or Killed Without Belief

marywollstonecraft said:

"All wickedness is but little to the wickedness of a woman. ... What else is woman but a foe to friendship, an unescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil nature, painted with fair colours. ... Women are by nature instruments of Satan -- they are by nature carnal, a structural defect rooted in the original creation."

from the Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of Witches), published by Catholic inquisition authorities in 1485-86, is not misogynistic?

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Well realistically the whole middle ages where misogynistic. True Christianity is pretty simple if you don't go all OT, lol. "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" Jesus was all about love and forgiveness, not placing blame on women for the downfall of humankind.

LowDown said:

No, I think we will have to agree to disagree on all that.

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By the way, did you manage to come up with an example of an officially atheistic government that didn't enforce its policies by killing large numbers of its own citizens? I'm seriously stumped on that.

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Please list governments which based their policy on what they didn't believe.

Black Manta said:

Well realistically the whole middle ages where misogynistic. True Christianity is pretty simple if you don't go all OT, lol. "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" Jesus was all about love and forgiveness, not placing blame on women for the downfall of humankind.

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It's a shame that Christians so rarely follow Jesus' example. Regardless of what Jesus said, Christianity has certainly not been kind or loving towards women and certainly has blamed them for the downfall of humanity. "True Christianity", as you put it, is a rather abstract thing. I'd rather talk about the Christianity (and Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and other faiths) that actually exist in the world. Not what they wish they were on paper.

Paschendale said:

It's a shame that Christians so rarely follow Jesus' example. Regardless of what Jesus said, Christianity has certainly not been kind or loving towards women and certainly has blamed them for the downfall of humanity. "True Christianity", as you put it, is a rather abstract thing. I'd rather talk about the Christianity (and Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and other faiths) that actually exist in the world. Not what they wish they were on paper.

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You are talking in blanket statements. Mankind has not been loving towards women even without the Bible, so you really have no point. There are people who truly follow the teaching and they have always been with us. It seems you would rather destroy, place blame or dwell on past mistakes rather than look at the positives religion in general has brought mankind.

Mankind kills in the name of power and wealth, period. Religion, any religion for the most part has been used as an excuse to condone it. As for the Bible, just because some got it wrong or were dishonest liars from the beginning leading people to war etc, is not the fault of what the Bible says as it does not condone it.

Black Manta said:

Religion, any religion for the most part has been used as an excuse to condone it.

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Why you think that doesn't make religion culpable is beyond me. Especially in this thread, which is about claiming that atheism is culpable for mass murder, despite atheism being simply a lack of religious belief. No one has ever justified any killing or discrimination with not believing in something, while religious beliefs have been explicitly invoked to justify and inform some of the worst atrocities in human history.

I also find it rather interesting how quickly you slip from "humankind" to "mankind" as soon as misogyny is no longer the explicit topic of discussion.

Paschendale said:

Why you think that doesn't make religion culpable is beyond me.

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Because we don't hold inanimate books or any other inanimate object culpable. The religion gats it's laws from the holy book. Anything outside of that is on the people.

Paschendale said:

Especially in this thread, which is about claiming that atheism is culpable for mass murder, despite atheism being simply a lack of religious belief. No one has ever justified any killing or discrimination with not believing in something, while religious beliefs have been explicitly invoked to justify and inform some of the worst atrocities in human history.

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It's not atheism or religion, it's human nature. People trying to blame either is just stupid.

Paschendale said:

I also find it rather interesting how quickly you slip from "humankind" to "mankind" as soon as misogyny is no longer the explicit topic of discussion.

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Does it make a difference to you? I can use whichever you like if it will help? :doh

LowDown said:

In response to the frequent criticism brought against religion by new atheists that religion inspires people to kill each other:

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Frequently the argument takes the form of "there is something about religion that causes people to be violent." But there is always some dodge concerning the observation that there is apparently something about the lack of belief that causes people to be even more murderous.

In fact, there is something common to both believers and non believers that causes violence, and that is human nature.

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Now, run that chart with a view to how many people were available to be killed in their respective realms.

Black Manta said:

Because we don't hold inanimate books or any other inanimate object culpable. The religion gats it's laws from the holy book. Anything outside of that is on the people.

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But we do hold ideas culpable. Ideas like eugenics. Ideas like racism. Ideas like religious morality. We'd even hold atheism culpable if it were the cause of anything. But it's not.

It's not atheism or religion, it's human nature. People trying to blame either is just stupid.

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Our nature is hardly static and unchangeable. We've changed it many times throughout history. We will do so many more times. Divesting ourselves of superstition is one such change. And the idea that violence and brutality are an unalterable part of our nature, and that we will forever be slaves to it, is an awfully depressing view. Don't you hope that we can be more? Our history is evidence that we can.

Also, this just sounds like you being an apologist. And invoking false equivalencies. But that's pretty much par for this thread.

Does it make a difference to you? I can use whichever you like if it will help? :doh

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It's just interesting. And I'm implying that it suggests a level of misogyny on your part. Though now I'm not implying it. I'm outright stating it.

Paschendale said:

Why you think that doesn't make religion culpable is beyond me. Especially in this thread, which is about claiming that atheism is culpable for mass murder, despite atheism being simply a lack of religious belief. No one has ever justified any killing or discrimination with not believing in something, while religious beliefs have been explicitly invoked to justify and inform some of the worst atrocities in human history.

I also find it rather interesting how quickly you slip from "humankind" to "mankind" as soon as misogyny is no longer the explicit topic of discussion.

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Isn't it funny how quickly theists try to back off of any responsibility that religion might have, especially their own religion, as soon as it becomes painfully clear that religion is at fault? They claim it isn't religion, it's the people! But the second people who just so happen to hold the same religious views do something good, it's a victory for religion, religion apparently can make people do good things, but it cannot make people do bad things.

And they think we don't notice when they do this.

LowDown said:

In response to the frequent criticism brought against religion by new atheists that religion inspires people to kill each other:

Frequently the argument takes the form of "there is something about religion that causes people to be violent." But there is always some dodge concerning the observation that there is apparently something about the lack of belief that causes people to be even more murderous.

In fact, there is something common to both believers and non believers that causes violence, and that is human nature.

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My argument, for one, has been that there is something about dogmatism that causes violence. Dogmatism doesn't have to be religious, though it often is.

These people weren't murderous due to a "lack of belief." Atheism was beside the point. They had a statist dogma in place of it. Religion was competition to the state dogma.

Also, that chart is really, really incomplete. There have been hundreds of major religiously motivated slaughters. This one barely even mentions a handful.

for those who wish to do their own research on this subject - here's one site, that provides some data. Please note that the guy who put the site together does provide multiple sources for the numbers

Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for Man-made Multicides throughout History

scroll down on this page to find his list: (Possibly) The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

One event on that list of Twenty is the Taiping Rebellion which took place in 19th C China. As with many wars, there are multiple causes but one of the big ones came when a guy by the name of Hong Xui Quan proclaimed he was Jesus's brother and decided to create a Heavenly Kingdom in China. Approximately 20 million died as Hong's followers attacked Confucionists, Buddhists and Taoists as demonically inspired beings.