The End of Blind Faith?

calamity · Mar 9, 2013

In reading an interesting set of articles recently, it occurred to me that in this day and age, an appeal to faith simply gets you nowhere during an argument or reasoned debate. Not that this comes as a surprise. But, it is, nonetheless, a powerful cultural shift.

For example, take the debate over same sex marriage.

When Wilson answered a question by citing the Bible, Sullivan pounced. Wilson’s was a fundamentalist, theocratic argument. Sullivan defined democracy as a system that excludes appeals to religious authority from the foundations of public life.
Gay Marriage and Christian Imagination » Peter Leithart | A First Things Blog

This same action can be seen all throughout our society: Theologian arguments may state that the earth was created in a week about 10,000 years ago. Rational people scoff at that, demand proof. The theologian points to scripture. Secular folks shake their heads.

Much the same occurs when anyone begins a discussion about Jesus or Noah's Ark or the Exodus. Secularists point to the historical record, rightly show that no such events could have been possible. The faithful deny the realities, argue that what is written in their Book supersedes whatever science or archaeology have unearthed.

In the end, religious blind faith is waning. Fewer and fewer people believe that science is wrong about a four billion-year old planet where dinosaurs once ruled and man only appeared in the recent past. In fact, to think man and the dinosaurs inhabited the same space at the same time a mere 6,000 years ago is today considered childish, if not stupid. But, a few hundred years ago, thinking differently and saying it out loud would have resulted in a burning at the stake. Nowadays, thinking it results in your opinions being dismissed.

Discuss.

Goshin · Mar 9, 2013

Yet, at least 80% of Americans self-identify as religious to some degree, whereas outright atheism remains well below 10%.

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Harshaw · Mar 9, 2013

calamity said:
In reading an interesting set of articles recently, it occurred to me that in this day and age, an appeal to faith simply gets you nowhere during an argument or reasoned debate. Not that this comes as a surprise. But, it is, nonetheless, a powerful cultural shift.

For example, take the debate over same sex marriage.

This same action can be seen all throughout our society: Theologian arguments may state that the earth was created in a week about 10,000 years ago. Rational people scoff at that, demand proof. The theologian points to scripture. Secular folks shake their heads.

Much the same occurs when anyone begins a discussion about Jesus or Noah's Ark or the Exodus. Secularists point to the historical record, rightly show that no such events could have been possible. The faithful deny the realities, argue that what is written in their Book supersedes whatever science or archaeology have unearthed.

In the end, religious blind faith is waning. Fewer and fewer people believe that science is wrong about a four billion-year old planet where dinosaurs once ruled and man only appeared in the recent past. In fact, to think man and the dinosaurs inhabited the same space at the same time a mere 6,000 years ago is today considered childish, if not stupid. But, a few hundred years ago, thinking differently and saying it out loud would have resulted in a burning at the stake. Nowadays, thinking it results in your opinions being dismissed.

Discuss.

Blind faith in something is hardwired into our brains. Everyone does it, including you.

MaggieD · Mar 9, 2013

calamity said:
In reading an interesting set of articles recently, it occurred to me that in this day and age, an appeal to faith simply gets you nowhere during an argument or reasoned debate. Not that this comes as a surprise. But, it is, nonetheless, a powerful cultural shift.

For example, take the debate over same sex marriage.

This same action can be seen all throughout our society: Theologian arguments may state that the earth was created in a week about 10,000 years ago. Rational people scoff at that, demand proof. The theologian points to scripture. Secular folks shake their heads.

Much the same occurs when anyone begins a discussion about Jesus or Noah's Ark or the Exodus. Secularists point to the historical record, rightly show that no such events could have been possible. The faithful deny the realities, argue that what is written in their Book supersedes whatever science or archaeology have unearthed.

In the end, religious blind faith is waning. Fewer and fewer people believe that science is wrong about a four billion-year old planet where dinosaurs once ruled and man only appeared in the recent past. In fact, to think man and the dinosaurs inhabited the same space at the same time a mere 6,000 years ago is today considered childish, if not stupid. But, a few hundred years ago, thinking differently and saying it out loud would have resulted in a burning at the stake. Nowadays, thinking it results in your opinions being dismissed.

Discuss.

Blind Faith is a pretty tough sell today. Whose blind faith?? This list gets us through "G."

Abrahamic religions

Main article: Abrahamic religions
A group of monotheistic traditions sometimes grouped with one another for comparative purposes, because all refer to a patriarch named Abraham.
Babism
Azali
Bahá'í Faith
Christianity
Catholicism
Main article: Catholic Church
Protestantism
Main article: Protestantism
Eastern Orthodoxy
Other Eastern Churches
Oriental Orthodox Church
Assyrian Church of the East
Bible Student movement
Christian Universalism
Latter Day Saint movement
Nontrinitarianism
Swedenborgianism
Unitarianism
Druze
Gnosticism
Christian Gnosticism
Ebionites
Cerdonians
Marcionism (not entirely Gnostic)
Colorbasians
Simonians
Early Gnosticism
Borborites
Cainites
Carpocratians
Ophites
Hermeticism
Medieval Gnosticism
Cathars
Bogomils
Paulicianism
Tondrakians
Persian Gnosticism
Mandaeanism
Manichaeism
Bagnolians
Syrian-Egyptic Gnosticism
Main article: Syrian-Egyptic Gnosticism
Sethians
Basilidians
Valentinians
Bardesanites

Medusa · Mar 9, 2013

calamity said:
In reading an interesting set of articles recently, it occurred to me that in this day and age, an appeal to faith simply gets you nowhere during an argument or reasoned debate. Not that this comes as a surprise. But, it is, nonetheless, a powerful cultural shift.

For example, take the debate over same sex marriage.

This same action can be seen all throughout our society: Theologian arguments may state that the earth was created in a week about 10,000 years ago. Rational people scoff at that, demand proof. The theologian points to scripture. Secular folks shake their heads.

Much the same occurs when anyone begins a discussion about Jesus or Noah's Ark or the Exodus. Secularists point to the historical record, rightly show that no such events could have been possible. The faithful deny the realities, argue that what is written in their Book supersedes whatever science or archaeology have unearthed.

In the end, religious blind faith is waning. Fewer and fewer people believe that science is wrong about a four billion-year old planet where dinosaurs once ruled and man only appeared in the recent past. In fact, to think man and the dinosaurs inhabited the same space at the same time a mere 6,000 years ago is today considered childish, if not stupid. But, a few hundred years ago, thinking differently and saying it out loud would have resulted in a burning at the stake. Nowadays, thinking it results in your opinions being dismissed.

Discuss.

it is not related to secularism ..secularism doesnt mean atheism ..

and yes ,the probability of these events having occured doesnt seem quite high to me not because l am believer but it seems because ancient people living in mesapotamia were smarter than we think now.many of these events had already been mentioned in sumerian mythology before the holy books came to appear and especially sumerian myths may keep some secrets of how human beings were created ..

these things are not as simple as we think ..

Ray410 · Mar 9, 2013

Important to remember that the MSM sees a huge part of it's job as creating a feeling of loss of hope and a sense of defeat in Conservative traditionalists. This is a big part of their war on traditional America so that is all that you see in the news. At the same time, the MSM gives a huge, unwarranted amount of space and commentary to pop culture immorality, atheism and homosexuality as if those were majority viewpoints in the United States. Liberal politicians of course, have expanded their big diverse circus tent to include anyone that will complain about anything American.

Combine those destructive efforts together and it is easy for an individual to get the sense that faith and religion are gone. Nothing could be further from the truth. Strong faith continues to be the sole support of morality, family and happiness in America. The Liberals can only succeed in their destruction of the America they hate so much if they destroy your faith. Don't give them that power.

grip · Mar 9, 2013

I think you can believe in some of the bible/religion/god without accepting every word as literally accurate.
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. And unless you're seeing miracles all faith is blind.

calamity · Mar 9, 2013

Goshin said:
Yet, at least 80% of Americans self-identify as religious to some degree, whereas outright atheism remains well below 10%.

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, how many of those would point to the Bible to base their argument? From the weather to earthquakes, maybe only about 5% of those 80% would attribute any natural event to an "Act of God". Agreed, though, that a lot more would classify it as "God's will".

Tee disconnect between the two however is worth thinking about. Most people are smart enough to know GOd didn;t cause the tornado, but yet a majority will attribute the results of the twister as something God intended. I find that strange, and evidence that we are still in transition. In other words, I suspect that soon, more and more people will self-identify as atheist or agnostic.

RabidAlpaca · Mar 9, 2013

Goshin said:
Yet, at least 80% of Americans self-identify as religious to some degree, whereas outright atheism remains well below 10%.

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the caveat to that is that of those 80% of religious Americans, a much, much larger portion now choose to be privately religious, or spiritual, without buying in to a larger religion with strict rules and orders. I think the pope-commands-all style religious scheme is certainly dying out.

calamity · Mar 9, 2013

Ray410 said:
Important to remember that the MSM sees a huge part of it's job as creating a feeling of loss of hope and a sense of defeat in Conservative traditionalists. This is a big part of their war on traditional America so that is all that you see in the news. At the same time, the MSM gives a huge, unwarranted amount of space and commentary to pop culture immorality, atheism and homosexuality as if those were majority viewpoints in the United States. Liberal politicians of course, have expanded their big diverse circus tent to include anyone that will complain about anything American.

Combine those destructive efforts together and it is easy for an individual to get the sense that faith and religion are gone. Nothing could be further from the truth. Strong faith continues to be the sole support of morality, family and happiness in America. The Liberals can only succeed in their destruction of the America they hate so much if they destroy your faith. Don't give them that power.

That's a big chunk to chew there, Ray.

I, for one, do not believe that there is this vast Left Wing conspiracy "creating a feeling of loss of hope and a sense of defeat in Conservative traditionalists". For instance, the Theory of Evolution is not a scheme to defang creationism. It's simply a theory which is consistent with observation which undermines the basic tenants of creationism as written in Genesis.

Manc Skipper · Mar 9, 2013

Blind faith is alive and well in the USA as in no other developed country. 46% of Americans believe that humans were created by God in the last 10,000 years, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Ray410 · Mar 9, 2013

calamity said:
That's a big chunk to chew there, Ray.

I, for one, do not believe that there is this vast Left Wing conspiracy "creating a feeling of loss of hope and a sense of defeat in Conservative traditionalists". For instance, the Theory of Evolution is not a scheme to defang creationism. It's simply a theory which is consistent with observation which undermines the basic tenants of creationism as written in Genesis.

You do agree that your OP conveyed "a feeling of loss of hope and a sense of defeat in Conservative traditionalists"

Medusa · Mar 9, 2013

Manc Skipper said:
Blind faith is alive and well in the USA as in no other developed country. 46% of Americans believe that humans were created by God in the last 10,000 years, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

what does this " developed " mean ?

and the belief in god means nondevelopment ?

Goshin · Mar 9, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
I think the caveat to that is that of those 80% of religious Americans, a much, much larger portion now choose to be privately religious, or spiritual, without buying in to a larger religion with strict rules and orders. I think the pope-commands-all style religious scheme is certainly dying out.

Yes, we are certainly a more secular and skeptical society than we were 60 years ago, of this there is no question. Nor are we as inclined to accept the words of any authority figure without question.

I also wouldn't argue that of the 80% or so who profess some religious belief, a much smaller number (perhaps half) are really serious about it and try to live their lives according to their beliefs.

I think a crucial point here is that "arguments from faith" do matter to those who share that faith.... to those outside that faith, naturally such arguments are far less than persuasive absent some other sort of support (ie logic and reason).

When I speak on Christian matters of faith, I recognize that I am speaking in a mode that is inclusive to Christians and that non-Christians will view meta-Christian arguments from the skeptical position of an outsider. This is perfectly natural, just as an argument based on shari-ah would have little impression on me, as I am not Muslim... I would consider it on its own merits rather than as an article of faith, since that is not my faith.

Risky Thicket · Mar 9, 2013

Ray410 said:
Important to remember that the MSM sees a huge part of it's job as creating a feeling of loss of hope and a sense of defeat in Conservative traditionalists.

You of course base your statement on something other than anecdotal evidence, right? Surely your position is based on documented research. Would you provide it for us? Or is more a touchy feely kind of emotion based opinion?

This is a big part of their war on traditional America so that is all that you see in the news.

It is fine if you want to pull this out of your ass, but don't try to pass it off as factual unless you can document it.

At the same time, the MSM gives a huge, unwarranted amount of space and commentary to pop culture immorality, atheism and homosexuality as if those were majority viewpoints in the United States.

What percentage of MSM space and commentary is given to pop culture immorality, atheism and homosexuality? Who determined the "huge" amount of space and commentary "unwarranted'?

calamity · Mar 9, 2013

Ray410 said:
You do agree that your OP conveyed "a feeling of loss of hope and a sense of defeat in Conservative traditionalists"

No. The op sows that pointing to traditions, like words written in the Bible, instead of verifiable data is losing credence.

Your argument seems to be another example of the facts being interpreted as a conspiracy against conservative positions. Assertions of fact are politically neutral, verifiable and sometimes in error and thus open for revision. Faith is none of the above.

Ray410 · Mar 9, 2013

Risky Thicket said:
You of course base your statement on something other than anecdotal evidence, right? Surely your position is based on documented research. Would you provide it for us? Or is more a touchy feely kind of emotion based opinion?

It is fine if you want to pull this out of your ass, but don't try to pass it off as factual unless you can document it.

What percentage of MSM space and commentary is given to pop culture immorality, atheism and homosexuality? Who determined the "huge" amount of space and commentary "unwarranted'?

DO NOT EVER, under any circumstances, demand proof of common knowledge, readily available facts or phenomena easily verified by simple observation. That particular argumentative technique has been a staple of loon discourse for many years when faced with conclusions they cannot refute.

"What the Hell do you mean the sun comes up in the morning?!@!!!" "Prove it, show me the research, where's the learned treatise?"

It's worked well for the loons to change the subject, attack the other person or simply change the focus to irrelevant minutiae instead of the actual point, which is something unfavorable to the loons.

It reveals a trending toward emotion and away from knowledge, which is also another Liberal staple.

Ray410 · Mar 9, 2013

calamity said:
No. The op sows that pointing to traditions, like words written in the Bible, instead of verifiable data is losing credence.

Your argument seems to be another example of the facts being interpreted as a conspiracy against conservative positions. Assertions of fact are politically neutral, verifiable and sometimes in error and thus open for revision. Faith is none of the above.

OK, got it. You've moved your OP into the realm of your agenda, which I had not picked up on.

I wouldn't delete my post though, I would just direct it to others instead of to you.

ThePlayDrive · Mar 9, 2013

calamity said:
In the end, religious blind faith is waning. Fewer and fewer people believe that science is wrong about a four billion-year old planet where dinosaurs once ruled and man only appeared in the recent past. In fact, to think man and the dinosaurs inhabited the same space at the same time a mere 6,000 years ago is today considered childish, if not stupid. But, a few hundred years ago, thinking differently and saying it out loud would have resulted in a burning at the stake. Nowadays, thinking it results in your opinions being dismissed.

Discuss.

People are becoming more educated because our society has "democratized" education to a greater degree in recent centuries and decades. More people have access to formal education and more people have access to books, magazines, television, the internet and other informal types of education. Because of that access, less people believe in things that directly contradict scientific evidence. In many ways, rational thought has triumphed over irrational thought.

That said, people still have "blind faith" in many non-religious things. All you need to do is look at how many people believe in political ideas that are entirely nonsensical and not based on any evidence to see this.

calamity · Mar 9, 2013

Ray410 said:
OK, got it. You've moved your OP into the realm of your agenda, which I had not picked up on.

I wouldn't delete my post though, I would just direct it to others instead of to you.

No. The op hasn't moved anywhere. It says what it says to support of the title: The End of Blind Faith? Blind faith no longer holds water in an open debate. This is not a liberal conspiracy. It's the result of the information age.

calamity · Mar 9, 2013

ThePlayDrive said:
People are becoming more educated because our society has "democratized" education to a greater degree in recent centuries and decades. More people have access to formal education and more people have access to books, magazines, television, the internet and other informal types of education. Because of that access, less people believe in things that directly contradict scientific evidence. In many ways, rational thought has triumphed over irrational thought.

That said, people still have "blind faith" in many non-religious things. All you need to do is look at how many people believe in political ideas that are entirely nonsensical and not based on any evidence to see this.

I think this is more due to the fact that the world is grey, not black and white. Almost any political argument can be refuted with facts to the contrary.

Risky Thicket · Mar 9, 2013

Ray410 said:
DO NOT EVER, under any circumstances, demand proof of common knowledge, readily available facts or phenomena easily verified by simple observation.

So, you can't document any of it, huh?

That particular argumentative technique has been a staple of loon discourse for many years when faced with conclusions they cannot refute.

Yes, the "technique" is called deductive reasoning.

"What the Hell do you mean the sun comes up in the morning?!@!!!" "Prove it, show me the research, where's the learned treatise?"

So what you are saying is that when I ask you for a percentage or for data you admittedly are unable to quantify it, right. Therefore when you make statements such as "...the MSM sees a huge part of it's job..." and "...the MSM gives a huge, unwarranted amount of space and commentary..." none of it is factual because it's all coming out of your butt, isn't it?

Regarding "unwarranted", what is "unwarranted"? Who determined it "warranted"?

It's worked well for the loons to change the subject, attack the other person or simply change the focus to irrelevant minutiae instead of the actual point, which is something unfavorable to the loons.

Don't try it again.

No one is attacking anyone here. I certainly haven't called any or any group any names. I didn't bring up media, you did. You presented statements as if they were factual. I asked for something other than anecdotal validation. Which, by the way, you have been unable to provide in any manner.

LowDown · Mar 9, 2013

calamity said:
In reading an interesting set of articles recently, it occurred to me that in this day and age, an appeal to faith simply gets you nowhere during an argument or reasoned debate. Not that this comes as a surprise. But, it is, nonetheless, a powerful cultural shift.

For example, take the debate over same sex marriage.

This same action can be seen all throughout our society: Theologian arguments may state that the earth was created in a week about 10,000 years ago. Rational people scoff at that, demand proof. The theologian points to scripture. Secular folks shake their heads.

Much the same occurs when anyone begins a discussion about Jesus or Noah's Ark or the Exodus. Secularists point to the historical record, rightly show that no such events could have been possible. The faithful deny the realities, argue that what is written in their Book supersedes whatever science or archaeology have unearthed.

In the end, religious blind faith is waning. Fewer and fewer people believe that science is wrong about a four billion-year old planet where dinosaurs once ruled and man only appeared in the recent past. In fact, to think man and the dinosaurs inhabited the same space at the same time a mere 6,000 years ago is today considered childish, if not stupid. But, a few hundred years ago, thinking differently and saying it out loud would have resulted in a burning at the stake. Nowadays, thinking it results in your opinions being dismissed.

Discuss.

"Religious blind faith" is a caricature of faith. For the most part it has never existed except in odd little fringe groups. If you want to discuss faith then don't use false stereotypes and misrepresentations of it. That would be bad faith.

Harshaw · Mar 9, 2013

Manc Skipper said:
Blind faith is alive and well in the USA as in no other developed country. 46% of Americans believe that humans were created by God in the last 10,000 years, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

And 98% of statistics are made up on the spot. :roll:

Manc Skipper · Mar 9, 2013

This one's from the annual Gallup survey. !5% believe in evolution, 37% in evolution directed by God, and the terrifying 46% are the majority.

The End of Blind Faith?

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