Proof that God exists

Alyssa · Feb 28, 2013

(the video has nothing to do with the OP, really. i just thought it was nice.)

Is design and purpose proof of God's existence?

imo, I say no because using the universe itself for proof that Something created it seems a bit redundant. However, many people seem lean on teleological explanations in debates.

If you answer that design and/or purpose cannot be used as proof for God's existence, can there be proof of God?

Knowledge=power · Feb 28, 2013

Alyssa said:
(the video has nothing to do with the OP, really. i just thought it was nice.)

Is design and purpose proof of God's existence?

imo, I say no because using the universe itself for proof that Something created it seems a bit redundant. However, many people seem lean on teleological explanations in debates.

If you answer that design and/or purpose cannot be used as proof for God's existence, can there be proof of God?

I don't believe there can be any physical proof, especially if said God is supernatural or exists in some other realm.

The conviction to believe in a God has to come from within. Some have it, some don't. Either way, there is no real proof. Attempts to claim there is proof are intellectually dishonest.

mak2 · Feb 28, 2013

The last thing I want during this life is proof God exists. It woudl be ok if I was in heaven, but here it would simply destroy my faith. And yes, it is a nice video. Thanks.

Alyssa said:
(the video has nothing to do with the OP, really. i just thought it was nice.)

Is design and purpose proof of God's existence?

imo, I say no because using the universe itself for proof that Something created it seems a bit redundant. However, many people seem lean on teleological explanations in debates.

If you answer that design and/or purpose cannot be used as proof for God's existence, can there be proof of God?

Knowledge=power · Feb 28, 2013

mak2 said:
The last thing I want during this life is proof God exists. It woudl be ok if I was in heaven, but here it would simply destroy my faith. And yes, it is a nice video. Thanks.

Proof would destroy your faith? How?

mak2 · Feb 28, 2013

I think we have talked about this before. If I have proof faith is not involved. Christianity is based on faith, not evidence.

Knowledge=power said:
Proof would destroy your faith? How?

Knowledge=power · Feb 28, 2013

mak2 said:
I think we have talked about this before. If I have proof faith is not involved. Christianity is based on faith, not evidence.

Why all of the efforts to find proof by the Christians then?

CaptinSarcastic · Feb 28, 2013

Alyssa said:
(the video has nothing to do with the OP, really. i just thought it was nice.)

Is design and purpose proof of God's existence?

imo, I say no because using the universe itself for proof that Something created it seems a bit redundant. However, many people seem lean on teleological explanations in debates.

If you answer that design and/or purpose cannot be used as proof for God's existence, can there be proof of God?

Of course there CAN be proof that God (especially the God of the Bible) exists (if God does in fact exist). God could simply appear to all of us and tell us he exists, and maybe do a card trick or bring someone back from the dead.

mak2 · Feb 28, 2013

I have no idea. I have often asked that question myself.

Knowledge=power said:
Why all of the efforts to find proof by the Christians then?

specklebang · Feb 28, 2013

The force that created the Universe could be called God. Does that force keep tabs on us humans? Is our species unique? On those quadrillions of planets out there do those beings feel that they have a "God"?

Best approach IMHO is conduct yourself as if there were a God.

The General · Feb 28, 2013

mak2 said:
The last thing I want during this life is proof God exists. It woudl be ok if I was in heaven, but here it would simply destroy my faith. And yes, it is a nice video. Thanks.

Knowledge=power said:
Proof would destroy your faith? How?

You Know the old saying seeing is believing, that is a lie. Seeing is knowing. You can not know and believe in something. I found my own proof that God is real. That proof is that my church still remands uncorrupted for more than 200 years. Even the Red Cross have started to become corrupted in that time span. (charging out soldier for their care packages, twice for each)

jmotivator · Feb 28, 2013

Alyssa said:
(the video has nothing to do with the OP, really. i just thought it was nice.)

Is design and purpose proof of God's existence?

imo, I say no because using the universe itself for proof that Something created it seems a bit redundant. However, many people seem lean on teleological explanations in debates.

If you answer that design and/or purpose cannot be used as proof for God's existence, can there be proof of God?

I'd say yes, there can be proof of God, but not proof that atheists seek.

Like a swaying tree is proof of a breeze sweeping by, watching compassion sweep through humanity in response to tragedy I see as proof of God.

On a side note, I can show strong evidence that an afterlife exists with three easy non-religious assumptions:

#1: Time is an infinite commodity

#2: Life arose from random chance. Life is a probability.

#3: Human Thought is nothing more than the byproduct of chemical reactions in the brain

SO, if life is a probability, and the development of the human brain is natural, then conscious thought can be considered purely as a probability. Moreover, the chemical reactions in your brain right now causing your current memories and consciousness are also a probability. So, we can conclude that you being where you are right now thinking what you are thinking right now has some incredibly small chance of happening, and it obviously did happen.

Now, if time is infinite, the chance that you will happen again, exactly as you happened right now, is ... 100%. More importantly, you will happen again an infinite number of times.

Alyssa · Feb 28, 2013

Knowledge=power said:
Proof would destroy your faith? How?

If faith requires proof, it has no substance.

CaptinSarcastic said:
Of course there CAN be proof that God (especially the God of the Bible) exists (if God does in fact exist). God could simply appear to all of us and tell us he exists, and maybe do a card trick or bring someone back from the dead.

The Israelites didn't believe in God even when he appeared before them and performed miracles.

jmotivator said:
I'd say yes, there can be proof of God, but not proof that atheists seek.

Like a swaying tree is proof of a breeze sweeping by, watching compassion sweep through humanity in response to tragedy I see as proof of God.

yes, that is subjectively interpreting life events as proof that God exists.

jmotivator said:
On a side note, I can show strong evidence that an afterlife exists with three easy non-religious assumptions:

#1: Time is an infinite commodity

How does that prove an after life exists?

jmotivator said:
#2: Life arose from random chance. Life is a probability.

I think life is inevitable. Order depends on Random chance for the raw materials of creation. Think of the chaos in the center of a star and nuclear fusion forming new elements that make up our planet and its moon as an example.

jmotivator said:
#3: Human Thought is nothing more than the byproduct of chemical reactions in the brain

this is where our perception of reality originates.

jmotivator said:
SO, if life is a probability, and the development of the human brain is natural, then conscious thought can be considered purely as a probability. Moreover, the chemical reactions in your brain right now causing your current memories and consciousness are also a probability. So, we can conclude that you being where you are right now thinking what you are thinking right now has some incredibly small chance of happening, and it obviously did happen.

If something has only a small chance of happening, it doesn't make it miraculous. It's just rare.

jmotivator said:
Now, if time is infinite, the chance that you will happen again, exactly as you happened right now, is ... 100%. More importantly, you will happen again an infinite number of times.

Interesting thought. I would say that if time is infinite and there are an infinite number of dimensions, there are infinite possibilities. Therefore, the universe in some form has always and will always exist. So where is the need for a Creator?

jmotivator · Feb 28, 2013

Alyssa said:
yes, that is subjectively interpreting life events as proof that God exists.

Does love exist?

How does that prove an after life exists?

You aren't used to reading proofs, are you?

I think life is inevitable. Order depends on Random chance for the raw materials of creation. Think of the chaos in the center of a star and nuclear fusion forming new elements that make up our planet and its moon as an example.

Yes, but anything that has a probability of happening will happen an infinite number of times given an infinite amount of time. If you assume that given an infinite amount of time you will only happen once then you can't believe that you sprung from random chance.

this is where our perception of reality originates.

That is what I am saying. Follow along with the steps rather than focus on each independently. I an setting up three criteria and then forming a conclusion from them.

If something has only a small chance of happening, it doesn't make it miraculous. It's just rare.

I haven't mentioned anything about miracles at this point. As I asserted from the start I am making a purely atheistic argument here on the possibility of you having another life after this one.

Interesting thought. I would say that if time is infinite and there are an infinite number of dimensions, there are infinite possibilities. Therefore, the universe in some form has always and will always exist. So where is the need for a Creator?

If there are infinite possibilities then there is a creator since you can't remove the possibility of a creator from an infinite set of possibilities... and if that possibility exists then a creator does exist because it had an infinite amount of time to happen. But actually there are only 10 dimensions (11 if you count dimension 0).

In fact, we believe God is an infinite being, he is not separate from you an I. We are part of that infinite creator.

lizzie · Feb 28, 2013

Alyssa said:
Is design and purpose proof of God's existence?

imo, I say no because using the universe itself for proof that Something created it seems a bit redundant. However, many people seem lean on teleological explanations in debates.

If you answer that design and/or purpose cannot be used as proof for God's existence, can there be proof of God?

Imo, the proof is that most of us survive until adulthood.

Alyssa · Feb 28, 2013

jmotivator said:
Does love exist?

In our minds, it does.

jmotivator said:
You aren't used to reading proofs, are you?

Answering a question with an irrelevant question.. hmm not sure how your question factors into this discussion. I am familiar with writing a premise and forming conclusions based on a premise using either deductive or reductive logic. Unless I have misread your post, your statement does not lead to a logical conclusion.

jmotivator said:
Yes, but anything that has a probability of happening will happen an infinite number of times given an infinite amount of time. If you assume that given an infinite amount of time you will only happen once then you can't believe that you sprung from random chance.

Sure I could. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. There is infinity and there is random chance.

jmotivator said:
That is what I am saying. Follow along with the steps rather than focus on each independently. I an setting up three criteria and then forming a conclusion from them.

You are free to conclude whatever you want from those statements. However, that doesn't mean you are correct. You have not proven anything using logic or facts/.

jmotivator said:
I haven't mentioned anything about miracles at this point. As I asserted from the start I am making a purely atheistic argument here on the possibility of you having another life after this one.

i know, that was my own point.

jmotivator said:
If there are infinite possibilities then there is a creator since you can't remove the possibility of a creator from an infinite set of possibilities... and if that possibility exists then a creator does exist because it had an infinite amount of time to happen. But actually there are only 10 dimensions (11 if you count dimension 0).

In fact, we believe God is an infinite being, he is not separate from you an I. We are part of that infinite creator.

Sure I could. If the universe has always existed, it doesn't require a Creator or even a moment to be created. The universe would then take on the roll of God being Infinite and being the Source of all power and life. Thus, your last statement is more accurate.

lemmiwinx · Feb 28, 2013

Sorry to break the news but we're just very smart insects living in good times.

A massive meteor could strike the planet tomorrow and we would be back in earthworms rule the planet mode.

ashurbanipal · Mar 1, 2013

jmotivator said:
On a side note, I can show strong evidence that an afterlife exists with three easy non-religious assumptions:

#1: Time is an infinite commodity

#2: Life arose from random chance. Life is a probability.

#3: Human Thought is nothing more than the byproduct of chemical reactions in the brain

SO, if life is a probability, and the development of the human brain is natural, then conscious thought can be considered purely as a probability. Moreover, the chemical reactions in your brain right now causing your current memories and consciousness are also a probability. So, we can conclude that you being where you are right now thinking what you are thinking right now has some incredibly small chance of happening, and it obviously did happen.

Now, if time is infinite, the chance that you will happen again, exactly as you happened right now, is ... 100%. More importantly, you will happen again an infinite number of times.

I hate to say this, but I think this is probably not a good argument. Assumption 2 has too much packed into it; if life arose from physical stuff, then it arose from a set of conditions. While we do not know what conditions might be necessary for life, we have no reason to assume there are an infinite number of different sets of conditions. So you'd need to also assume that future infinite time would allow for something in that set of conditions to recur. And that assumption doesn't seem very safe.

Think of it like this: suppose there were 1000 different general configurations of initial material conditions that could give rise to life. We'll represent all possible conditions (including those that cannot give rise to life) by the counting numbers, starting with 1. The 1000 general configurations are assigned to the first 1000 prime numbers. Now, obviously, after the 1000th prime, two points hold: first, there are still an infinite series of numbers (so time is still infinite). Second, life will not occur again (no further possibility for the preconditions occurring).

ashurbanipal · Mar 1, 2013

As for a proof of God's existence:

The Ontological argument is the only one that rises to the level of a proof. It seems an awful lot like cheating, but it's turned out to be surprisingly resilient, and it's quite difficult to say specifically what is wrong with it. Anselm's version went something like this:

1) There is a conceivable being greater than which none can be conceived.

2) Whatever you conceive that being to be, unless that being exists in actual reality, your conception is not the greatest that can be conceived.

3) Therefore the greatest conceivable being (i.e. God) exists in actual reality.

This sounds like an attempt to just define God into existence. But then, it seems pretty clear that an actually existing greatest-possible-being is more great than a merely imaginary one. It also seems clear that there should be a greatest conceivable being. Various attempts to knock those ideas down have been tried, but none have really done the job.

I don't particularly like the argument, because it seems like cheating to me as well. But I have a devil of a time saying what's wrong with it (note that the argument has been substantially updated since Anselm's time to account for advances in formal modal logic. A complicated, but valid modal version was presented by Alvin Plantinga. His premises all seem true.). Lately, I find myself wondering whether this isn't a case where I should be persuaded by sound reasoning, regardless of how much it conflicts with my intuitions.

Paralogic · Mar 1, 2013

Alyssa said:
... can there be proof of God?

No, because no gods exist.

That's so simple, you'd think people would be aware of such a simple truth after millions of years of human evolution.

The reasons why they are not is a well studied, analyzed and explained by Science.

Peter Grimm · Mar 1, 2013

Knowledge=power said:
I don't believe there can be any physical proof, especially if said God is supernatural or exists in some other realm.

The conviction to believe in a God has to come from within. Some have it, some don't. Either way, there is no real proof. Attempts to claim there is proof are intellectually dishonest.

Some of the most fascinating treatises in the field of philosophy have pondered this question or attempted to prove/disprove God.

I wouldn't be so quick to call anyone who broaches the topic "intellectually dishonest."

That is, unless Descartes is intellectually dishonest in your mind.

Peter Grimm · Mar 1, 2013

Paralogic said:
No, because no gods exist.

That's so simple, you'd think people would be aware of such a simple truth after millions of years of human evolution.

The reasons why they are not is a well studied, analyzed and explained by Science.

You can be fairly certain, as a matter of probability, that there have existed multitudes of people whose IQ's eclipse your own who, like it or not, believe/d in God.

That would run counter to your insinuation that belief in God is a function of intellect.

Paralogic · Mar 1, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
You can be fairly certain, as a matter of probability, that there have existed multitudes of people whose IQ's eclipse your own who, like it or not, believe/d in God.

That would run counter to your insinuation that belief in God is a function of intellect.

I didn't mention "intellect".

Belief in supernatural entities is a psychological dysfunction, and/or a psychological disorder, not a matter of intellect.

Examine your own assumptions before you make them public.

Peter Grimm · Mar 1, 2013

Paralogic said:
I didn't mention "intellect".

Belief in supernatural entities is a psychological dysfunction, and/or a psychological disorder, not a matter of intellect.

Examine your own assumptions before you make them public.

Is it?

Go find me where in the DSM 5 it states that belief in God is an accepted psychological disorder.

Good luck to you.

Paralogic · Mar 1, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Is it?

Yes.

Go find me where in the DSM 5 it states that belief in God is an accepted psychological disorder.

Do you mean the religious are following scientific research of the human behavior, and follow its results?

Is this a request that can even be considered sane?

Peter Grimm · Mar 1, 2013

Paralogic said:
Yes.

Do you mean the religious are following scientific research of the human behavior, and follow its results?

Is this a request that can even be considered sane?

^^ Ad hominem attack on religious people. ^^

Proof that God exists

Alyssa

¡Selah!

Knowledge=power

Well-known member

mak2

Knowledge=power

Well-known member

mak2

Knowledge=power

Well-known member

CaptinSarcastic

mak2

specklebang

Discount Philosopher

The General

Member

jmotivator

Computer Gaming Nerd

Alyssa

¡Selah!

jmotivator

Computer Gaming Nerd

lizzie

Alyssa

¡Selah!

lemmiwinx

ashurbanipal

ashurbanipal

Paralogic

Peter Grimm

Peter Grimm

Paralogic

Peter Grimm

Paralogic

Peter Grimm