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If I were to wake up in Heaven

skreetsmart said:
I would immediately begin to protest for all the souls in hell and would probably try to form a small army of dissenters who want to take the tyrant down ;)
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I would be like, holy crap, that's a 37 eyed lamb (or however many it was in revelation), that's freaky!
 
Northern Light said:
If I woke up in Heaven, it would just be yet another illusion I'd need to debunk in order to re-realize my freedom. Even a blissful place is a prison, especially if you have to spend eternity there under someone else's rules. At least on Earth I am aware of suffering which leads me to knowledge that this reality is an illusion; in Heaven the task would be made far more difficult because it would feel good. Heaven is no closer or farther from Divinity than Earth is. No thanks.
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Which law of physics do you break the most?
 
It's kind of amazing to me how people who go on and on about freedom and choice will then buckle down about how important it is to submit to a powerful authority. We all apparently need to be free to give up our freedom to someone who literally wants us to ignore the reality around us and let him tell us what to think. It's a very strange contradiction. Also the idea that the faith dichotomy isn't intrinsically coercive when it involves punishment and reward.

skeptical hippo said:
You get a choice. You dont have to go too hell. You can choose to live a good life and go to heaven and live in the ultimate paradise. I'd say that is plenty fair.
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That's not the choice. The choice is to live free or submit to an all-powerful slavemaster. The god deal is literally "do what I tell you or I'll hurt you". That's slavery.

FluffyNinja said:
The interesting thing about the Christian gospel is that salvation and damnation are "thrust" upon no one. The only choice involved is the choice made by us as individuals....to accept....or not to accept. Grace has been given freely........but sadly, not all will accept the gift. In fact, if we are to believe the very words of Christ........relatively few will willingly receive it. :shrug:
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And again. You get to choose to let god tell you what to do, or you choose to make up your own mind, and suffer for it. God is the ultimate Big Brother.
 
Paschendale said:
It's kind of amazing to me how people who go on and on about freedom and choice will then buckle down about how important it is to submit to a powerful authority. We all apparently need to be free to give up our freedom to someone who literally wants us to ignore the reality around us and let him tell us what to think. It's a very strange contradiction. Also the idea that the faith dichotomy isn't intrinsically coercive when it involves punishment and reward.



That's not the choice. The choice is to live free or submit to an all-powerful slavemaster. The god deal is literally "do what I tell you or I'll hurt you". That's slavery.



And again. You get to choose to let god tell you what to do, or you choose to make up your own mind, and suffer for it. God is the ultimate Big Brother.
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I think it's more of the idea that we have free will to make GOOD decisions. God wouldn't punish you because you make your own decisions; that's the whole idea. The thing is being a good person, trying to help others, all that good stuff.

Also, I believe that if you made bad decisions and you are truly sorry for them, God would forgive you.
 
skreetsmart said:
I would immediately begin to protest for all the souls in hell and would probably try to form a small army of dissenters who want to take the tyrant down ;)
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I choose to accept your premise as pithy and provocative and more a statement of your own character and nature and less of Gods.

Personally...I dont see God as this omnipotent ruler with rigid rules and a trigger finger on the 'smite' button'. Our earthly vision of God and the future is rather limited. I see him as a loving father and as such...he sees our heart...our intent. He understands us better than even we understand ourselves. There will be mercy, forgiveness, unconditional love and compassion...just as any earthly righteous parent would demonstrate for their own children. I dont think we understand him or the 'rules' all that well...but I think he understands us perfectly. I think...should there be an afterlife and a 'God'...that we will all be pleasantly surprised.
 
Paschendale said:
It's kind of amazing to me how people who go on and on about freedom and choice will then buckle down about how important it is to submit to a powerful authority. We all apparently need to be free to give up our freedom to someone who literally wants us to ignore the reality around us and let him tell us what to think. It's a very strange contradiction. Also the idea that the faith dichotomy isn't intrinsically coercive when it involves punishment and reward.
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Freedom of choice is important though. Don't you agree that if you are forced into doing something good it doesn't seem to count as much as it would if you decided to do it of your own free will? Choice matters.

That's not the choice. The choice is to live free or submit to an all-powerful slavemaster. The god deal is literally "do what I tell you or I'll hurt you". That's slavery.
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Actually it is a choice. Yes or no. Still a choice. While it may seem like it's really not a choice at all people still choose to say no all the time, so apparently it is a choice. And yeah many people do call it slavery, and that includes believers.


And again. You get to choose to let god tell you what to do, or you choose to make up your own mind, and suffer for it. God is the ultimate Big Brother.
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Lol yeah he is. He sees you all the time, knows what you are thinking, even knows what you will do next.
 
VanceMack said:
I choose to accept your premise as pithy and provocative and more a statement of your own character and nature and less of Gods.

Personally...I dont see God as this omnipotent ruler with rigid rules and a trigger finger on the 'smite' button'. Our earthly vision of God and the future is rather limited. I see him as a loving father and as such...he sees our heart...our intent. He understands us better than even we understand ourselves. There will be mercy, forgiveness, unconditional love and compassion...just as any earthly righteous parent would demonstrate for their own children. I dont think we understand him or the 'rules' all that well...but I think he understands us perfectly. I think...should there be an afterlife and a 'God'...that we will all be pleasantly surprised.
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Not all. Keep in mind there are plenty of people hedging there bet that when they die they won't see those pearly gates. As the bible says there will be lots crying and grinding of teeth.
 
skeptical hippo said:
Not all. Keep in mind there are plenty of people hedging there bet that when they die they won't see those pearly gates. As the bible says there will be lots crying and grinding of teeth.
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I have no doubt but not for the reasons some believe.
 
ChuckBerry said:
When you finally see the face of God (Catholics call it the "beatific vision") you will understand the infinity of God's mercy and understand truly that everyone in Hell deserves to be there.

God's beauty and grace is so vast that to reject it is madness. If you insist on rejecting the offerings of the author of all existence...OK.
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That is a great post. It seems strange that other posters would find something there to dislike or ridicule, even attack. It is notable that your reaction to them is "OK" but their reaction to Christians is rage and hate, it is not OK to them for anyone to have faith, because they do not.
 
ChuckBerry said:
When you finally see the face of God (Catholics call it the "beatific vision") you will understand the infinity of God's mercy and understand truly that everyone in Hell deserves to be there.

God's beauty and grace is so vast that to reject it is madness. If you insist on rejecting the offerings of the author of all existence...OK.
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so you think everybody is going to heaven and Satan will be the last one through the door due to God's infinite mercy?
 
Ray410 said:
That is a great post. It seems strange that other posters would find something there to dislike or ridicule, even attack. It is notable that your reaction to them is "OK" but their reaction to Christians is rage and hate, it is not OK to them for anyone to have faith, because they do not.
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Because the Christian proposition (and the Muslim one, less so the Jewish one) is that we are all slaves to an all powerful parent who can treat us like property, but it's okay because he has so much power that we cannot rebel, even in our thoughts. And then this parent is supposedly good and gets to define good and evil merely because of how much power he has, despite doing lots of objectively cruel things for little or no reason. I do rage against and hate the proposition that I am a slave, and that I should be happy about it because I will be punished in horrific ways if I disagree. It seems strange to you that others get angry at this? It seems strange to me that you don't. But I guess you like being a slave.
 
Fisher said:
so you think everybody is going to heaven and Satan will be the last one through the door due to God's infinite mercy?
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Is that really such a hard concept to understand?
 
skeptical hippo said:
What do you mean?
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Some will cry tears of joy, some will cry tears of relief, some will cry in fear and anguish, some will cry in guilt.

Again...it comes down to what you believe when you see the face of God. DO you truly believe God is a petty, jealous being who wants nothing more for many billions of people than to make it to 'heaven', sit on clouds, play harps, and sing his praises for the eternities? If there be a God (I 'believe' that there is because I CHOOSE faith) then I can tell you that MY belief is that his capacity for love and understanding will dwarf what we know. As a father...there is NOTHING my children could do that would cause me to not love them unconditionally. I believe once we go from 'here' to 'there' our understanding will become complete. There will Im sure be some levels of judgement and atonement...but there will also be love and progression. If not...frankly...I dont want any part of it.
 
Ray410 said:
That is a great post. It seems strange that other posters would find something there to dislike or ridicule, even attack. It is notable that your reaction to them is "OK" but their reaction to Christians is rage and hate, it is not OK to them for anyone to have faith, because they do not.
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Give it a rest. :beatdeadhorse
 
ChrisL said:
I think it's more of the idea that we have free will to make GOOD decisions. God wouldn't punish you because you make your own decisions; that's the whole idea. The thing is being a good person, trying to help others, all that good stuff.

Also, I believe that if you made bad decisions and you are truly sorry for them, God would forgive you.
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In Buddhism it is referred to in this manner:

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right View. The right way to think about life is to see the world through the eyes of the Buddha--with wisdom and compassion.

2. Right Thought. We are what we think. Clear and kind thoughts build good, strong characters.

3. Right Speech. By speaking kind and helpful words, we are respected and trusted by everyone.

4. Right Conduct. No matter what we say, others know us from the way we behave. Before we criticize others, we should first see what we do ourselves.

5. Right Livelihood. This means choosing a job that does not hurt others. The Buddha said, "Do not earn your living by harming others. Do not seek happiness by making others unhappy."

6. Right Effort. A worthwhile life means doing our best at all times and having good will toward others. This also means not wasting effort on things that harm ourselves and others.

7. Right Mindfulness. This means being aware of our thoughts, words, and deeds.

8. Right Concentration. Focus on one thought or object at a time. By doing this, we can be quiet and attain true peace of mind.

Buddhists don't share the Christian concept of sin, but rather samsara. Samsara is essentially repeating the same lesson(s) over and over again until it is learned. Many lessons are painful, as we all know. Repeated lessons come in many different forms, but the lesson is the same until we learn it. Punishment? I suppose you could view it that way. From the Buddhist perspective it doesn't come from an angry "God".

The 8 guidelines above are recommendations or directions (not directives) as to how to live correctly and thus end the cycle of frustration and pain and attain enlightenment. In my experience it's easier said than done. :)

We are all "God" or God is not all.
 
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Risky Thicket said:
In Buddhism it is referred to in this manner:

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right View. The right way to think about life is to see the world through the eyes of the Buddha--with wisdom and compassion.

2. Right Thought. We are what we think. Clear and kind thoughts build good, strong characters.

3. Right Speech. By speaking kind and helpful words, we are respected and trusted by everyone.

4. Right Conduct. No matter what we say, others know us from the way we behave. Before we criticize others, we should first see what we do ourselves.

5. Right Livelihood. This means choosing a job that does not hurt others. The Buddha said, "Do not earn your living by harming others. Do not seek happiness by making others unhappy."

6. Right Effort. A worthwhile life means doing our best at all times and having good will toward others. This also means not wasting effort on things that harm ourselves and others.

7. Right Mindfulness. This means being aware of our thoughts, words, and deeds.

8. Right Concentration. Focus on one thought or object at a time. By doing this, we can be quiet and attain true peace of mind.

Buddhists don't share the Christian concept of sin, but rather samsara. Samsara is essentially repeating the same lesson(s) over and over again until it is learned. Many lessons are painful, as we all know. Repeated lessons come in many different lessons, but the lesson is the same until we learn it. Punishment? I suppose you could view it that way. From the Buddhist perspective it doesn't come from an angry "God".

The 8 guidelines above are recommendations or directions (not directives) as to how to live correctly and thus end the cycle of frustration and pain and attain enlightenment. In my experience it's easier said than done. :)
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Wonderful goals to aspire to meet though! :)
 
Henrin said:
Not how I see it at all. According to them I either buy what they are selling or I get to burn forever. I'm already not buying into the whole thing, but threats are not how you are going to get me to see the light. It is however a damn good way to tell me I was right.
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Maybe you could clarify who your "them" are here; I'm not sure I understand to whom you're referring.

You know, threats wouldn't work for me either.

The whole deal is that your Father can't force you to love Him. He wants you to, but it's your choice entirely.

It's not about fear; it's about love. There is a reason Paul uses the term "beloved" to refer to you and me.
 
Risky Thicket said:
In Buddhism it is referred to in this manner:

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right View. The right way to think about life is to see the world through the eyes of the Buddha--with wisdom and compassion.

2. Right Thought. We are what we think. Clear and kind thoughts build good, strong characters.

3. Right Speech. By speaking kind and helpful words, we are respected and trusted by everyone.

4. Right Conduct. No matter what we say, others know us from the way we behave. Before we criticize others, we should first see what we do ourselves.

5. Right Livelihood. This means choosing a job that does not hurt others. The Buddha said, "Do not earn your living by harming others. Do not seek happiness by making others unhappy."

6. Right Effort. A worthwhile life means doing our best at all times and having good will toward others. This also means not wasting effort on things that harm ourselves and others.

7. Right Mindfulness. This means being aware of our thoughts, words, and deeds.

8. Right Concentration. Focus on one thought or object at a time. By doing this, we can be quiet and attain true peace of mind.

Buddhists don't share the Christian concept of sin, but rather samsara. Samsara is essentially repeating the same lesson(s) over and over again until it is learned. Many lessons are painful, as we all know. Repeated lessons come in many different forms, but the lesson is the same until we learn it. Punishment? I suppose you could view it that way. From the Buddhist perspective it doesn't come from an angry "God".

The 8 guidelines above are recommendations or directions (not directives) as to how to live correctly and thus end the cycle of frustration and pain and attain enlightenment. In my experience it's easier said than done. :)

We are all "God" or God is not all.
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Good post! I once read a non-Buddhist (that's more of a koan than a description ;)) refer to The Eightfold Path as "The Buddhists' Commandments". It made me smile for quite a long time.
 
Andalublue said:
Good post! I once read a non-Buddhist (that's more of a koan than a description ;)) refer to The Eightfold Path as "The Buddhists' Commandments". It made me smile for quite a long time.
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I often refer to them as "Suggestions". :)
 
VanceMack said:
Some will cry tears of joy, some will cry tears of relief, some will cry in fear and anguish, some will cry in guilt.

Again...it comes down to what you believe when you see the face of God. DO you truly believe God is a petty, jealous being who wants nothing more for many billions of people than to make it to 'heaven', sit on clouds, play harps, and sing his praises for the eternities? If there be a God (I 'believe' that there is because I CHOOSE faith) then I can tell you that MY belief is that his capacity for love and understanding will dwarf what we know. As a father...there is NOTHING my children could do that would cause me to not love them unconditionally. I believe once we go from 'here' to 'there' our understanding will become complete. There will Im sure be some levels of judgement and atonement...but there will also be love and progression. If not...frankly...I dont want any part of it.
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Part of being a loving father is punishing your children when they do bad. No doubt God loves us more than we understand but that doesn't mean that he won't punish us for the evil we have committed.
 
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