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Neurosurgeon: proof heaven exists

Republic Now! said:
Actually many were atheists or not very religious and become so after.
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You'd need some statistics to back up that "many" though I'm not sure that'd even be possible - there isn't enough scientific rigour in the investigations in these kind of claims and, as I say, we can't account for anyone who has these experiences but it's never documented.

Republic Now! said:
Well, there are other documented cases of experience when the brain is inactive.
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No, that is literally not possible. For someone to report such an experience, they must have brain activity. That means there must be a period between the time they had little or no brain activity and them being awake and capable of speaking. I see no reason to assume that the experiences (or memory of them) couldn't be generated during that recovery period.

Republic Now! said:
You can say they were all liars, every person who has claimed this, and there have been many, but really it's not productive to just blindly deny it.
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I don't think anyone is claiming these people are lying. I certainly think that as least most of them are being perfectly honest in their reports of what they recall. What is being challenged is the assumed source of those memories, such as the case in the OP where the Neurosurgeon claims his experience is proof for the existence of Heaven. There is absolutely nothing to support that assumption on the basis of the information presented. There are other hypotheses which are at least as likely explanations for the phenomena.

Republic Now! said:
What it does argue against is the notion that the sum of a person (or the self) is the brain.
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Not while it's perfectly possible that these memories are generated entirely within the brain.
 
HonestJoe said:
You'd need some statistics to back up that "many" though I'm not sure that'd even be possible - there isn't enough scientific rigour in the investigations in these kind of claims and, as I say, we can't account for anyone who has these experiences but it's never documented.
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Well, most of the scientific community refuse to tackle it because of the implications.

No, that is literally not possible. For someone to report such an experience, they must have brain activity. That means there must be a period between the time they had little or no brain activity and them being awake and capable of speaking. I see no reason to assume that the experiences (or memory of them) couldn't be generated during that recovery period.
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Well, the problem is the manufactured memories don't tend to be so consistent.

I don't think anyone is claiming these people are lying. I certainly think that as least most of them are being perfectly honest in their reports of what they recall. What is being challenged is the assumed source of those memories, such as the case in the OP where the Neurosurgeon claims his experience is proof for the existence of Heaven. There is absolutely nothing to support that assumption on the basis of the information presented. There are other hypotheses which are at least as likely explanations for the phenomena.
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I don't think its proof of heaven or an afterlife either.

Not while it's perfectly possible that these memories are generated entirely within the brain.
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Yes, it's possible, but the consistency is difficult to explain in such a way.
 
It is amazing how much some atheists on the forum now hate that doctor.
 
joko104 said:
It is amazing how much some atheists on the forum now hate that doctor.
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I don't think anybody hates him, we just think he's ridiculous. He's using the equivalent of a dream, that he can't prove, and nobody else saw, as "irrefutable evidence" of an afterlife, all so he can sell some books.
 
Thorgasm said:
How come nobody ever finds proof of Hell when they have near death experiences? :lol:
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Acutally, a few have, at least they claimed to have, when they were suicide attempts. That's pretty much what I would expect from someone who is at a point of desperation psychologically.
 
lizzie said:
Acutally, a few have, at least they claimed to have, when they were suicide attempts.
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What about Catholics and Purgatory?
 
Thorgasm said:
What about Catholics and Purgatory?
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I was not raised Catholic, and have never been interested enough to really look into the matter. I was just pointing out that of the people who have publicly claimed NDE's, the ones who had negative experiences were suicide attempts.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
Read and see if YOU think its proof :shrug:
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No, it isn't proof. There is no proof, and there won't be any proof. It is anecdotal evidence, just as many other cases are, but not a single person can prove the existence of God or an afterlife, except in that he/she perceives it as a reality.
 
Republic Now! said:
Well, most of the scientific community refuse to tackle it because of the implications.
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There isn't a lot which can be effectively studied to be honest. Cases typically consist of a single persons experience reported after the fact. I believe there are some studies in to NDEs in progress, involving symbols of high shelves to see if anyone reporting an NDE can accurately report the symbols. Obviously those kind of things take a long time. I think more general research in to the workings of the brain, waking, sleeping and in various medical conditions, is a much more promising direction to look and is probably why that's where most mainstream research will be focused.

Republic Now! said:
Well, the problem is the manufactured memories don't tend to be so consistent.
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I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that they're entirely consistent. Some reports appear to be consistent enough to reflect existing cultural imagery but they can also have significant differences too. Again, you'd need a lot more detailed evidence to make any specific claims on this basis.
 
The full stroy from Newsweek: Proof of Heaven: A Doctor

Not that I believe he saw Heaven - and he certainly has no "proof" of it!
Sherman123 said:
Googled the story and ended up reading a pretty devastating critique of not only the claimed account, but of Dr. Alexander's methods and motives by Sam Harris.

This Must Be Heaven : Sam Harris
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Ahhh, one of the Four Horsemen! I like Sam Harris's work. Currently waiting for Free Will from the library. :)
 
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