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Morality is Genetic?

Grant said:
Unfortunately "concern" doesn't often translate into reality. Human beings can easily look the other way from human suffering and in fact do it all the time.
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This is true that it doesn't always work well, but again, my point is there are themes in every culture that ALWAYS show up and because these concerns are cross cultural, we need to look at something more fundamental in human make up.
 
Paul Austin said:
Seeing as morality is subjective I dont see how it could be.
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thats exactly what i was thinking, since morals are factual subjective doesnt that instantly negate their ability to be genetic? i mean at least with sticking to the topic. In the end it would all be debatable.
 
megaprogman said:
This is true that it doesn't always work well, but again, my point is there are themes in every culture that ALWAYS show up and because these concerns are cross cultural, we need to look at something more fundamental in human make up.
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Themes within the same culture, perhaps but not always. These themes are also frequently ignored when ones one position or philosophy is at risk despite living in the same culture.

The question often asked is: who makes the rules? Is it fashion? Is it law? Is it social pressure? Is it power?

Now that Christianity seems to be on the wane who will remain to define morality as western civilization has come to know it? How will it be replaced?
 
megaprogman said:
Fairness
Care
Liberty
Loyalty
Authority
Sanctity or Purity

Please show me a culture that isn't concerned about these concepts.
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18th century American south wasn't concerned at all with fairness toward blacks. In fact, you can find plenty of places today where fairness toward religious out-groups is entirely irrelevant.
 
Cephus said:
18th century American south wasn't concerned at all with fairness toward blacks. In fact, you can find plenty of places today where fairness toward religious out-groups is entirely irrelevant.
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Loyalty, which can express itself in tribalism takes over sometimes.
 
Grant said:
Unfortunately "concern" doesn't often translate into reality. Human beings can easily look the other way from human suffering and in fact do it all the time.
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This is true. Humans are not perfect creatures, yet the themes are always there in one form or another.
 
megaprogman said:
Loyalty, which can express itself in tribalism takes over sometimes.
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Which still means you were wrong and you're trying to dodge the bullet.
 
Cephus said:
Which still means you were wrong and you're trying to dodge the bullet.
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I was never wrong in the first place. Obviously morality is not cut and try, but still, try to find a society that isn't concerned with those themes. The few you have identified have been. The 18th century may have not been good for black people, but the concept of fairness was still there. The abolition movement for example.
 
megaprogman said:
Fairness
Care
Liberty
Loyalty
Authority
Sanctity or Purity

Please show me a culture that isn't concerned about these concepts.
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Any culture with slavery (& thats been a lot) can knock most of those out & is authority "moral"?
 
Paul Austin said:
Any culture with slavery (& thats been a lot) can knock most of those out & is authority "moral"?
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I am not talking about morality as it is applied in religion or philosophy, but as a cultural phenomenon as it applies to the brain. Human behaviors are based around these concepts, even if they are never applied universally. Any culture that has slavery also is concerned with fairness, care, and liberty in other aspects of that society. The morality is still there, but in other aspects of that culture, in other words.

Authority:
authority of the bible or other holy book
authority of traditional ways of doing things
authority of the constitution
authority of the king
authority of parents
etc
 
megaprogman said:
Any culture that has slavery also is concerned with fairness, care, and liberty in other aspects of that society. The morality is still there, but in other aspects of that culture
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That would require some real mental gymnastics & extremely subjective defenitions to apply, & by that standard you could apply almost anything to anything else.

For example one could argue that increadbly selfish head of a tribe who used, & abused all his subjects, enslaving them all & doing & offering nothing for them at all was fair to himself, but others would define that as selfish and as far from fair as possible.

Its to gray an argument.

There is no universality to any "morals", which demonstrates that they are at the least subjected, in some form to external influences (for example possibly diet, climate, social conditions) & therefore can not be entirely hard wired.
 
megaprogman said:
I was never wrong in the first place. Obviously morality is not cut and try, but still, try to find a society that isn't concerned with those themes. The few you have identified have been. The 18th century may have not been good for black people, but the concept of fairness was still there. The abolition movement for example.
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I pointed out several cultures that lacked at least one of those themes off the top of my head, I could easily do the same with the others.
 
Wake, do you have a link to Hitchens' actual comments?

In general, yes, I agree. I believe human brains are genetically hardwired to contain a certain rudimentary sense of right and wrong, and there is a growing body of research to support it.

The Moral Life of Babies
 
Cephus said:
I pointed out several cultures that lacked at least one of those themes off the top of my head, I could easily do the same with the others.
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Two points
1. Fairness is always lensed through the culture in that point in time. You are looking at it with today's morals
2. You pointed out one and didn't listen to my pointing out why and tried to pretend that you had a valid point.
 
Paul Austin said:
That would require some real mental gymnastics & extremely subjective defenitions to apply, & by that standard you could apply almost anything to anything else.

For example one could argue that increadbly selfish head of a tribe who used, & abused all his subjects, enslaving them all & doing & offering nothing for them at all was fair to himself, but others would define that as selfish and as far from fair as possible.

Its to gray an argument.

There is no universality to any "morals", which demonstrates that they are at the least subjected, in some form to external influences (for example possibly diet, climate, social conditions) & therefore can not be entirely hard wired.
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That is why I called them themes. Look at it anthropologically and in the lens of that specific culture in its point in time. There is a reason mental gymnastics are required, because you need to look at each culture in its own context.
 
megaprogman said:
That is why I called them themes. Look at it anthropologically and in the lens of that specific culture in its point in time. There is a reason mental gymnastics are required, because you need to look at each culture in its own context.
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You can see patterns in anything, but the thing is patterns are often not patterns but random parts of chaos that just appeared as a pattern.

Sometimes you have to look past patterns to a bigger picture to see that they dont fit.

Its like a jigsaw puzzle, you look for a blue piece of sky & you find a blue piece, but when you try to make it fit the puzzle it turns out its the slighter darker blue of the water.
 
Paul Austin said:
You can see patterns in anything, but the thing is patterns are often not patterns but random parts of chaos that just appeared as a pattern.

Sometimes you have to look past patterns to a bigger picture to see that they dont fit.

Its like a jigsaw puzzle, you look for a blue piece of sky & you find a blue piece, but when you try to make it fit the puzzle it turns out its the slighter darker blue of the water.
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I agree with this in general, but not specifically on this issue.
 
megaprogman said:
Two points
1. Fairness is always lensed through the culture in that point in time. You are looking at it with today's morals
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In other words, you can just redefine "fairness" any way you want? Hey, the Nazis were being "fair" to the Jews from their cultural perspective! :roll:

2. You pointed out one and didn't listen to my pointing out why and tried to pretend that you had a valid point.
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Because, as I pointed out, you just rationalized your way around the problems with your claim, just as you did in #1.
 
I dont see how morality could be at all gentetic...its learned
 
lpast said:
I dont see how morality could be at all gentetic...its learned
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morality is consequences which cant b known but by actin as a consequence of smthg else

this is where it could b genetics, in relative means while relativity never exist

but in concept of being, a form living is a consequence of smthg constant
like silly example, if ur pattern is blue then ur familiarity with blue would make u appear as being one of blue consequence or morality

im inventing of course but it makes more sense then what is been meant or said
 
Cephus said:
In other words, you can just redefine "fairness" any way you want? Hey, the Nazis were being "fair" to the Jews from their cultural perspective! :roll:
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Not quite, but I am willing to bet the Nazis were concerned about fairness to the aryan race. Something you and I may dislike, but still a cultural phenomenon.

Cephus said:
Because, as I pointed out, you just rationalized your way around the problems with your claim, just as you did in #1.
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Its not a problem, its you applying your personal morals to understanding a society and thus misunderstanding it and my point.
 
It depends. If you believe in Tabla Rosa. then no. I think most of our morals are learned from our parents, siblings, peers and community. I also think in modern times the media plays a big role to.

I just cannot see what the connection would be between genes and social structures such as morals but I am no expert.
 
Medusa said:
some people may be sociopath because of environmental conditions and experiences they had during their lifetime as well as genetic effects
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This is not true. Almost all if not all sociopaths are products of genetics. You cannot become developmentally disabled or mentally ill you are born that way. However, environmental mental conditions can affect thet way the malady is manifested and to what degree.

The only exception to this that I am aware of is MPS. Multiple Personality syndrome (sybil)
 
What if...? said:
I dont think any of it is insurmountably "hard wired".

Like psychology and the science of persuasion, its all percentages, "spectrums" and tendencies.

Which means some will be strongly influenced by their genes and some almost not at all.
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Well put.
 
ecofarm said:
If one is mentally challenged, then one is to some extent incapable of highest order moral reasoning. Plus the very stupid people. And the genetically/born insane. There's the 20%, manifested.
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Insanity is a legal term not a medical one. Very stupid people can have morals. DD and MI people can also have morals. They aren't limited to "smart" people. My son is autistic and I can assure you he has morals and do most Aspies I have ever met. SOmetimes more than NT's
 
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