What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,drugs

What do you class as a modern Libertarian? Can you really be Right or Left leaning as a Libertarian?

To what extent is Ron Paul a key influence in the modern movement? Or do you disagree with his views and see the political thought of the Libertarian movement in another light?

What are your views on:

Economy

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel

Foreign Policy

War on Drugs

Society- i.e gang violence, urban decay, balance of wealth

(Try and keep to your views and not digress into attacking another posters viewpoint)

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Joechilli said:

What do you class as a modern Libertarian?

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An ignorant of politics, society, education or everything in between.

Libertarians are either anarchists, or completely oblivious to what Libertarianism is all about. Most of them just blurt out the label without being aware or knowledgeable about the ideology of Libertarianism.

Most of self proclaimed Libertarians in the US political environment pretend to be hard-core conservatives. Most of them are ignorant of the basic Libertarian tenet of supporting the right of a human to own another human, and no governmental organization or any other social entity having the authority to regulate such behavior.

Libertarianism is mental disorder that accepts and allows anti-social behavior.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:

Most of them are ignorant of the basic Libertarian tenet of supporting the right of a human to own another human, and no governmental organization or any other social entity having the authority to regulate such behavior.

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Wow. I am diametrically opposed to libertarianism-- with or without a capital L-- and that's still the most hateful, ignorant, and completely baseless thing I've ever seen someone say about them. Slavery is completely and utterly antithetical to libertarians of any kind.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Viktyr Gehrig said:

Wow. I am diametrically opposed to libertarianism-- with or without a capital L-- and that's still the most hateful, ignorant, and completely baseless thing I've ever seen someone say about them. Slavery is completely and utterly antithetical to libertarians of any kind.

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Then you are not knowledgeable, educated or informed about Libertarianism.

Read a book. It does a mind good.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Joechilli said:

What do you class as a modern Libertarian?

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A libertarian is someone who believes that civil rights and personal liberty trump all other political concerns and that the ideal government-- if any-- is the one that does the absolute minimum necessary to protect those basic liberties.

Joechilli said:

Can you really be Right or Left leaning as a Libertarian?

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Yeah. Left vs. Right isn't about big government versus small government-- that's a conservative lie-- but rather about property rights and social hierarchy. Right-wing libertarians believe that the natural social hierarchy that arises from the free market is socially desirable because it allows the cream to rise to the top; left-wing libertarians believe that abolishing government support for exploitative business interests will allow people to achieve true equality.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:

Then you are not knowledgeable, educated or informed about Libertarianism.

Read a book. It does a mind good.

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Calling me ignorant and telling me to read books doesn't change the fact that your slanders are completely baseless.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Viktyr Gehrig said:

Calling me ignorant and telling me to read books doesn't change the fact that your slanders are completely baseless.

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See "Libertarianism" on Wikipedia. People are supposed to educate themselves before they pretend to know anything about anything.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:

See "Libertarianism" on Wikipedia.

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Why, did you just get done defacing it?

Paralogic said:

People are supposed to educate themselves before they pretend to know anything about anything.

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Yes. It would be nice, wouldn't it?

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Viktyr Gehrig said:

Why, did you just get done defacing it?

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Me? Why would I want to deface a source of knowledge?

Yes. It would be nice, wouldn't it?

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Yes, it would. People should be responsible to educate themselves before blurting nonsense on online forums. Moderators included.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Viktyr Gehrig said:

Calling me ignorant and telling me to read books doesn't change the fact that your slanders are completely baseless.

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It's what he does. Come to think of it, that's all he does.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:

An ignorant of politics, society, education or everything in between.

Libertarians are either anarchists, or completely oblivious to what Libertarianism is all about. Most of them just blurt out the label without being aware or knowledgeable about the ideology of Libertarianism.

Most of self proclaimed Libertarians in the US political environment pretend to be hard-core conservatives. Most of them are ignorant of the basic Libertarian tenet of supporting the right of a human to own another human, and no governmental organization or any other social entity having the authority to regulate such behavior.

Libertarianism is mental disorder that accepts and allows anti-social behavior.

Click to expand...

You call everything you disagree with a mental disorder.


Tedious habit of yours.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:

An ignorant of politics, society, education or everything in between.

Libertarians are either anarchists, or completely oblivious to what Libertarianism is all about. Most of them just blurt out the label without being aware or knowledgeable about the ideology of Libertarianism.

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Libertarians believe in small/minimal government. That's not the definition of Anarchy.

Most of them are ignorant of the basic Libertarian tenet of supporting the right of a human to own another human, and no governmental organization or any other social entity having the authority to regulate such behavior.

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Do you mind telling me where you got that idea from? Or are you just making that up?

Libertarianism is mental disorder that accepts and allows anti-social behavior.

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You're entitled to your own opinion, but I disagree.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

What do you class as a modern Libertarian? Can you really be Right or Left leaning as a Libertarian? I think that generally, when someone says they are right or left-leaning, it implies how they personally feel regarding issues, although they support strictly libertarian concepts for governance.
To what extent is Ron Paul a key influence in the modern movement? Or do you disagree with his views and see the political thought of the Libertarian movement in another light? I generally agree with him on most issues.

What are your views on:

Economy
Free market with minimal regulations just to insure that actual competition can happen.

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel
I love the idea of alternatives, and would back it if it were feasible on a large scale. I also support traditional, since it's the most economically feasible.

Foreign Policy
I prefer non-intervention in political affairs of other sovereign nations. I detest nation-building, and support defense, not offense.

War on Drugs
It's not a workable solution to the drug problem. I have no problem with legalization of pot. There are a couple of reservations I have when it comes to some of the bathtub lab drugs, but if we could take a hands-off approach, and stay out of the lives of individuals making poor choices, and let those individuals live with the results of their choices, I could support it. I oppose putting non-violent drug offenders in prison, period.

Society- i.e gang violence, urban decay, balance of wealth
It's a growing problem, and not one that will be easily dealt with, but it's a product of our current and long-standing social policies that inner cities have become such cesspools, and any libertarian policy can't fix that, without the support of a huge concensus on the part of the American public.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

I'm a conservative libertarian, so though I don't agree with every plank of the Libertarian Party platform, I do hold to the fundamental idea of libertarianism, and that is this; the only proper and just role of government is to uphold and defend the god-given, inalienable individual rights of all citizens as enumerated in the bill of rights, and that the government ought to be strictly confined to the structure and powers as enumerated in the constitution. I hardly see this idea as a mental disorder, it seems to me to be...well...common sense.

On this issues:

Economy

Reduce spending across the board, cut tax rates for everyone, nationalize/abolish the Federal Reserve so we are not paying interest on every dollar, bring down costs by getting out of wars and other unnecessary foreign entanglements, hand entitlements programs over to the states as the first step in the process of gradually phasing them out, eliminate all unconstitutional government departments and programs, and eventually abolish the IRS and institute the FairTax or a similar new taxation approach.

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel

Both, and that is something for the market to decided. American needs to become energy independent, so we must reduce and eventually get rid of corporate tax, which will bring massive amounts of industry here and will encourage entrepreneurship. We need to allow private companies to tap into the natural resources we have here, including coal and continental oil reserves. Ultimately whether we move more toward reliance on fossil fuel or toward green energy utilization will be determined by the American people voting with their dollars in a free market. And given the environmental concerns that I feel we all share, I think we would see a great boom in the alternative energy industry, driven to higher quality and efficiency by market competition.

Foreign Policy

Non-interventionism, not isolationism. Free trade and diplomacy with all countries, but entangling alliances with none, as George Washington encouraged. We need to only go to war for purposes of legitimate national defense, we need to stop nation building, we need to phase out and eliminate all foreign aid, and we need to get out of the United Nations and get the United Nations out of the US. We need to maintain a strong national defense and world-class military force, but we need to stick to defense and not get into the business of empire-building. This as far as I can tell is just constitutional conservatism, but given the prominence of neoconservative ideology in the GOP, this is a seemingly radical and libertarian position. Nevertheless, it is the only rational position to hold.

War on Drugs

It is an abject failure, on par with the prohibition of alcohol, and it ought to be ended. Not only that, but it is unconstitutional; the federal government has not been granted the authority under article 1 section 8 of the constitution to outlaw the voluntary ingestion of substances by individual citizens. Drug policy ought to be left to the states, and no federal drug policy should even exist. We ought to treat drug addiction as a medical issue and not a criminal issue, and we can reduce the drug problem through state regulation and educational efforts.

Society- i.e gang violence, urban decay, balance of wealth

Create jobs by gradually ending income and corporate tax, halt inflation by putting the control of money back into the hands of congress and out of the hands of a private central bank, encourage private charity with greater tax breaks and deductions, end the criminal war on drugs, and respect the rights of individuals. If people are truly free, have excellent opportunity to work, can feasibly start a business without absurd regulations, and are using sound money, I think poverty will eventually become a thing of the past. You will have inequality, but our poor would be the equivalent of the rich of other nations. Freedom, opportunity, and sound money are the keys to reducing crime and social decay.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Joechilli said:

What do you class as a modern Libertarian? Can you really be Right or Left leaning as a Libertarian?

Click to expand...

I pretty much skipped over the whole libertarian thing. It didn't make much sense to me beyond the two or three months I attempted to label myself as such. The problem with someone labeling oneself as a libertarian is that it forces a person to categorize their beliefs based on a faulty premise. Allow me to explain.

In my view, libertarians are often simply Demoblicans (Republicans and Democrats) who are disheartened by some aspect of their chosen party or politics in general. They see how the government has become an all-encompassing Leviathan in the daily lives of everyone within America and desire an expansion of their individual liberty in one or more facets. Obviously, the area in which they desire more autonomy is the determining factor of being labeled "left" or "right" leaning.

So why do I consider libertarians to be sadly confused and unfortunate individuals? Because they haven't quite made the realization of why they are so miserable and fed up with the political system. It is difficult to put in words my thought processes at this point so perhaps a brief explanation for each of the listed items will assist in making this a bit more clear.

Joechilli said:

What are your views on:

Economy

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As Viktyr almost got right, generally the left/right divide on the economy is over how the government should manipulate the economy. Never is the question asked, should the government manipulate the economy. Lefties desire punitive actions on "exploitative" corporations despite the fact that those businesses which actually do exploit workers and/or other businesses are only able to do so with government authority. Righties desire punitive measures on "unfair" competition by foreigners despite the fact that domestic businesses are at a competitive disadvantage in certain areas only due to government meddling in the first place.

I rarely hear anyone ask why the government is involved in the economy in any capacity and demand an end to it.

Joechilli said:

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel

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Excellent example of a false dichotomy. Someone who truly believe in libertarian ideals would say, "who cares?" This should be a non-issue. If property rights were actually sacrosanct, if individual contract was sovereign, and if arbitrary restrictions/subsidies were eliminated, nobody would even be considering this topic. A libertarian would simply ask what all the fuss was about since we don't continually argue over which aluminum alloy is best or which mixture of concrete is the strongest or which car lasts the longest. The answer is, the best source of energy for the given time and circumstances will always be utilized in an unhampered market. But this is never the question.

Joechilli said:

Foreign Policy

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This is possibly the most enlightening topic of them all. From an individual perspective, all action is "foreign policy." Once again, the left/right dichotomy dictates that one must either agree with politicians forcing foreigners to abide by rules or soldiers forcing foreigners to abide by rules. What about the simple policy of allowing other people to decide for themselves what to do? Most Americans I meet are arrogant enough to believe that they know what is best for the entire globe. I'm sure their attitude would change pretty quickly if nature had saw it fit to place their birth in a different nation. Foreign policy is only a topic because people are blind enough to believe that by accident of birth they are better than other humans.

Joechilli said:

War on Drugs

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Or more aptly, the War on Allowing People to Ingest, Inhale, or Inject What They Want. Quite simply, a war on liberty. Some left/right libs find it necessary to dictate which substances are okay or which methods of legalization are allowable or any number of asinine excuses. I don't think I have ever heard a libertarian ask where in the Constitution the power to prohibit the use of certain substances is given to the government.


So I guess what I am trying to say is that a person who declares themselves to be a libertarian (i.e. one who espouses individual liberty) will, by logical conclusion, have no argument over how a person's liberty ought to be restricted, but whether or not it should be restricted. And if you get that far... well, you just walked yourself into anarchism.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Joechilli said:

What do you class as a modern Libertarian? Can you really be Right or Left leaning as a Libertarian?

To what extent is Ron Paul a key influence in the modern movement? Or do you disagree with his views and see the political thought of the Libertarian movement in another light?

What are your views on:

Economy

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel

Foreign Policy

War on Drugs

Society- i.e gang violence, urban decay, balance of wealth

(Try and keep to your views and not digress into attacking another posters viewpoint)

Click to expand...

The philosophy can actual include a great number of ideals; anything from atheism to socialism. So yes, I think there could very easily be left and right leaning libertarians. All in all, I think libertarianism can very easily be a “big tent” philosophy. I don’t think that Ron Paul is actually a very big influence on the system. He is more aligned towards libertarianism than any other Republocrat, but I don’t think he’s radically changed or contributed to libertarian philosophy.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

There are 2 types of libertarians.

The Classical libertarians, the european kind, i.e. libertarian socialists or anarchist socialists that oppose all types of unjustified power

And then you have the American kind, which are Randian kinds that advocate for what ammounts to Private/unnaccountable tyrannies ala Leopolds Congo, or Somers Isles or whatever, essnecially plutocracy.

I would consider myself the former.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

A libertarian friend did a good job debating with me and introducing me to his philosophy. He works in the CATO Institute and more or less agrees with their stances (except he doesn't deny global warming).

So as I have come to learn to know libertarianism, to make it short, means "minimal, but strong government", liberal on social issues and pro-free market stance.

The right on property is the most important right and all other rights can be derived from this right. Government must protect the property of the citizens from coercion by other citizens, but government itself must not coerce people to give away their property.

That's what I remember in a nutshell.

I don't fully agree with the pro-free market stance, but I have great respect for libertarians who defend civil liberties from violations by government. I am more skeptic of capitalism than libertarians. But they are spot on, IMO, when it comes to individual liberty on social issues. Especially when they don't forget that the military is part of big government too.

Then, of course, there are people who simply call themselves "libertarian" just because it's fancy, while in reality, they are conservatives.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

German guy said:

A libertarian friend did a good job debating with me and introducing me to his philosophy. He works in the CATO Institute and more or less agrees with their stances (except he doesn't deny global warming).

So as I have come to learn to know libertarianism, to make it short, means "minimal, but strong government", liberal on social issues and pro-free market stance.

The right on property is the most important right and all other rights can be derived from this right. Government must protect the property of the citizens from coercion by other citizens, but government itself must not coerce people to give away their property.

That's what I remember in a nutshell.

I don't fully agree with the pro-free market stance, but I have great respect for libertarians who defend civil liberties from violations by government. I am more skeptic of capitalism than libertarians. But they are spot on, IMO, when it comes to individual liberty on social issues. Especially when they don't forget that the military is part of big government too.

Then, of course, there are people who simply call themselves "libertarian" just because it's fancy, while in reality, they are conservatives.

Click to expand...

If only most Americans could have the grasp on libertarianism that you do.

The reputation it has gained here, is that of a bunch of pot-smoking idiots with their heads in the clouds.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

These discussions always come down to two things

1- the 24 different types of libertarian cartoon that we all have seen which means that you can be anything you want to be and still rationalize calling yourself a libertarian
2- the no true Scotsman fallacy that some libertarians use to say "NO - thats not a real libertarian".

either way - its a dead end going nowhere.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

lizzie said:

If only most Americans could have the grasp on libertarianism that you do.

The reputation it has gained here, is that of a bunch of pot-smoking idiots with their heads in the clouds.

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That's partly because the party will first fill with the most disillusioned and there is a significant population of the libertarian movement whom seem obsessed only with drug legalization (which is only a very small part of libertarian philosophy). But I also think it is due to the purposeful proliferation of the stereotypes to the degree that it will discourage people from investigating the philosophy.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Viktyr Gehrig said:

Slavery is completely and utterly antithetical to libertarians of any kind.

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You're wrong.

Slavery is accepted, allowed and protected by Liberatarian ideals because no Governmental entity should have any authority over the behavior of individuals.

What that means, is that if you don't want to have slaves, that's fine. But if your neighbor does, you should not be allowed to do anything to stop it.

If you allow some Governmental authority over some social behavior, but not others, then you're in the political realm of conservatism, liberalism, or other established political ideologies.

Libertarianism is the idea that individuals should not be hindered, controlled or limited by any social rules.

Read a book. It does a mind good.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:

You're wrong.

Slavery is accepted, allowed and protected by Liberatarian ideals because no Governmental entity should have any authority over the behavior of individuals.

What that means, is that if you don't want to have slaves, that's fine. But if your neighbor does, you should not be allowed to do anything to stop it.

If you allow some Governmental authority over some social behavior, but not others, then you're in the political realm of conservatism, liberalism, or other established political ideologies.

Libertarianism is the idea that individuals should not be hindered, controlled or limited by any social rules.

Read a book. It does a mind good.

Click to expand...

This is one of the most stupid over generalizations of the philosophy and outright propaganda I have seen in quite some time. Everyone is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Economy

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Our economy would grow with less government involvement. Our government, rep. or dem., involvement in the private sector restricts job growth.

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel

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I personally believe alternative energy is the better way to go. Not neccasarily a libertarian philosophy but rather a personal belief.

Foreign Policy

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In cases of genocide, environmental destruction, or extreme human rights violations the United States should get involved. Other than that they should limit involvement in foreign affairs.

War on Drugs

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The government does not have the right to tell a person what they can and cannot do with their bodies.

Society- i.e gang violence, urban decay, balance of wealth

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The federal government should not have anything to do with any of this. Gang violence and urban decay should be addressed by the people in communities and local government. The balance of wealth is not a concern. If the poor want to give their money to the rich that is their choice. Our government needs to stop trying to protect people from their own stupidity.

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:

You're wrong.

Slavery is accepted, allowed and protected by Liberatarian ideals because no Governmental entity should have any authority over the behavior of individuals.

What that means, is that if you don't want to have slaves, that's fine. But if your neighbor does, you should not be allowed to do anything to stop it.

If you allow some Governmental authority over some social behavior, but not others, then you're in the political realm of conservatism, liberalism, or other established political ideologies.

Libertarianism is the idea that individuals should not be hindered, controlled or limited by any social rules.

Read a book. It does a mind good.

Click to expand...

Your a broken record. Do us a favor and actually entertain an original thought. I am sure its a lot for you to try, but none the less you should.