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How many people must die in the name of jesus christ and allah?

I would say that religion cannot directly cause anything. It's our choices, our desires, our actions which effect the real world. That is not to say that religion cannot facilitate our desires. It most certainly can to some extent, be those desires good or evil.

I see religion as a natural being. I think it's quite obvious that any species of significant intelligence would at some point in their evolution create religion of sorts. Magic, alchemy, or whatever crazy name people want to give it. As a very young and intelligent species, we would have many questions without answers. Sometimes we find the wrong ones or better put we want to believe we know the answer. Vonnegut wrote in his book Cat's Cradle
"Tiger got to hunt,
bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep,
bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand."

To think is our nature, to strive for knowledge a genetic imprint upon our species. No other species on this planet has come close to producing what raw, unbridled curiosity and intelligence has wrought. Religion is a very natural thing, an organic and evolving creature. It changes with us. As we learn new knowledge that we can ascribe to science instead of religion, we relinquish hold of the religious context (sometimes with great resistance). Religion has become a reflection of the humans around it and we had begun to interweave it into our society and use it to enforce societal norms. Which is why rules not only change over time, but can be radically different from culture and religion to culture and religion. And religion will continue to evolve along side mankind, for there shall always be questions with answers we do not know. And in the end, we have to tell ourselves that we understand.

Yeah, I'd imagine on any other planet, once the evolution reached the point of organisms capable of pondering their existence, force of nature deities and origin myths would soon follow. The question is, now that a substantial amount of those myths is provably wrong, why should we cling to them still? What possible good is it doing? No one follows Thor or Zeus anymore, although it's on my to-do list to build a temple. Why should JC or Allah be any different now? I actually don't think religion will evolve with mankind endlessly. Some other mechanism of control will take its place, if nationalism and the drive for wealth and threat of prison everywhere you look (in US at least) hasn't done so already.
 
Actually, the biggest single charitable givers, in terms of absolute dollars, are atheists. Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffet, who have given tens of billions of dollars in charitable contributions, are both atheists.

The problem is, weekly contributions to churches is counted among charitable contributions, which puts the religious ahead in mean terms, simply because they feel obligated to drop something in the collection plate on Sunday. I don't consider most of that money to be charitable as much of it goes to church upkeep and the rest, which may ostensibly go toward helping people, does so at the cost of being a religious outreach. They put up soup kitchens, not necessarily to help people, but to try to convert them. The food is a means to get the poor in the door.

Further, atheists don't tend to stand up and wave their arms and scream "we're atheists!" when giving. They just give. They're not out for notoriety. Things have started to change, there are more openly atheist groups giving money to Doctors Without Borders, for instance. In fact, the reason many atheists haven't given more openly is that many charities have been so demonstrably religious, pushing their mind-poison on people in the guise of helping them. I wouldn't give any money to those groups either. But luckily, some of the largest charitable groups out there today are entirely secular, such as the Red Cross, which removes that particular obstacle.

To be honest, I consider atheist giving to be much more valid than theist giving, simply because atheists give, simply to help people. Theists give, at least in some part, to make nice with their imaginary friend in the sky. Atheists get nothing out of it but the satisfaction of giving. Theists, while in actuality get nothing out of it, are certainly driven in at least some small way by scoring points.

So donations only count if you are an athiest. I guess athiests would have a huge lead when you don't count anyone else.
 
A donation to a church isnt really a donation to a charity. Its a donation to hate. Most churches spend millions trying to stop gays from getting married. Money that can you use to help the poor.

Can you name any athiest organization that has fed more starving people than the catholic church? Can you name anyone who has housed more homeless? Please let me know the name of that group.
 
So donations only count if you are an athiest. I guess athiests would have a huge lead when you don't count anyone else.

I didn't say that. They only ought to count when given for the right reason, which is specifically because people need help. If they're trying to get anything else out of it, I don't consider them valid. I also wouldn't be impressed if a politician started giving huge amounts of money to charity as a political move to get re-elected. It's one thing if you give a sandwich to a hungry person, just because you empathize with them and quite another if you do it because you think someone is watching and want them to be impressed.
 
Can you name any athiest organization that has fed more starving people than the catholic church? Can you name anyone who has housed more homeless? Please let me know the name of that group.

Any group that has done so with no ulterior motives? Lots, since the Catholic Church acts, not out of empathy, but in a desire to convert.
 
Can you name any athiest organization that has fed more starving people than the catholic church? Can you name anyone who has housed more homeless? Please let me know the name of that group.

Atheists do it for the good of humanity. The religious do it for their "sky cake." Who is really the better person?
 
Atheists do it for the good of humanity. The religious do it for their "sky cake." Who is really the better person?

Yeah, it's the religious that are holier than thou. LOL
 
The Bible doesn't say just one thing about anything, that's why there are 30,000 sects of Christianity with 30,000 interpretations of what the Bible supposedly says. There is no "correct" interpretation that anyone can demonstrate.
And yet you feel comfortable in dismissing it on the basis of your own personal interpretation.

Attaboy.
 
They all get it.

Violence and mass death is what they all want. That's why religion is still so popular.
Quite right.

No atheist ever committed an atrocity of any kind.
 
I didn't say that. They only ought to count when given for the right reason, which is specifically because people need help. If they're trying to get anything else out of it, I don't consider them valid. I also wouldn't be impressed if a politician started giving huge amounts of money to charity as a political move to get re-elected. It's one thing if you give a sandwich to a hungry person, just because you empathize with them and quite another if you do it because you think someone is watching and want them to be impressed.
Or perhaps religious people just happen to identify with those elements, they find reflected in their faith.
 
And yet you feel comfortable in dismissing it on the basis of your own personal interpretation.

Attaboy.

I don't believe any of it because there's no evidence that it's actually true. As amazing as it might be, I actually care if what I believe is true, unlike most theists who embrace anything that makes them feel good and then they demand that it must be true so they don't look foolish.

Anyhow, way back when I was religious, I went to a church which had, back in the 1920s, split off from another local church over doctrinal differences. I don't remember what those differences were, but apparently they were so important as to split the church in half, yet not important enough for either side to actually leave the denomination. Therefore, there were two large churches, with the exact same denomination, about 1/4 mile from each other.

The point is, you're all using the same book and none of you can agree on much of anything.
 
Quite right.

No atheist ever committed an atrocity of any kind.

Not in the name of atheism. Name one who did.
 
I don't believe any of it because there's no evidence that it's actually true. As amazing as it might be, I actually care if what I believe is true, unlike most theists who embrace anything that makes them feel good and then they demand that it must be true so they don't look foolish.

Anyhow, way back when I was religious, I went to a church which had, back in the 1920s, split off from another local church over doctrinal differences. I don't remember what those differences were, but apparently they were so important as to split the church in half, yet not important enough for either side to actually leave the denomination. Therefore, there were two large churches, with the exact same denomination, about 1/4 mile from each other.

The point is, you're all using the same book and none of you can agree on much of anything.
Well, aside from the fact that there's a god. Whatever their differences, there's not a one of them that would dispute that.

It's not about feeling good. Such as self-sacrifice and compassion often entail exposing oneself to negative experiences. Or do you suppose the faithful believe Christ enjoyed being crucified? And they couldn't be avoiding being made to look foolish, since they're painfully aware of how their beliefs would incur such comments, as those made by people like yourself.
 
Not in the name of atheism. Name one who did.
I don't need to, if you'll concede that every last atrocity committed by a religious person, didn't have to be motivated by their faith.
 
I don't need to, if you'll concede that every last atrocity committed by a religious person, didn't have to be motivated by their faith.

Didn't have to be? Lots of them claim very clearly that it was! So produce a single person who ever claimed that any attrocity was actually caused by atheism.

We both know you won't be able to.
 
Well, aside from the fact that there's a god. Whatever their differences, there's not a one of them that would dispute that.

Cool, then since you claimed that, you ought to be able to back it up with objective evidence. So when do you think you'll be doing that?

It's not about feeling good. Such as self-sacrifice and compassion often entail exposing oneself to negative experiences. Or do you suppose the faithful believe Christ enjoyed being crucified? And they couldn't be avoiding being made to look foolish, since they're painfully aware of how their beliefs would incur such comments, as those made by people like yourself.

Sure it is. People are uncomfortable not having answers to some of the big questions in life, or worse yet, they don't like the actual answers to they invent more comforting ones. They want to believe that some big father figure in the sky is watching over them. It's a security blanket. If you please that imaginary friend, he rewards you, conveniently after you die when you can't come back and tell everyone that it's all a big scam.

There's no evidence that Jesus was ever crucified, or that Jesus ever actually existed, as described in the Bible, at all.
 
Didn't have to be? Lots of them claim very clearly that it was! So produce a single person who ever claimed that any attrocity was actually caused by atheism.

We both know you won't be able to.
And the overwhelming majority will never commit atrocities. Just as atheists are equally capable of atrocity, irrespective of their atheism.

But you missed my point.

Religion needn't be accountable for the inhumanities people inflict upon one another. Regardless of Paralogic's claim that we all want 'violence and mass death'.
 
Cool, then since you claimed that, you ought to be able to back it up with objective evidence. So when do you think you'll be doing that?
Then you admit that those conflicting religious groups do indeed agree on something?

Btw, when do you intend to prove otherwise? We've been here before, you and I. When you say objective, what you mean is empirical evidence. And as I've explained to you previously, an intangible is not subject to empirical investigation. But hey, we can always deflect from the issue. This is the trademark response.

Sure it is. People are uncomfortable not having answers to some of the big questions in life, or worse yet, they don't like the actual answers to they invent more comforting ones. They want to believe that some big father figure in the sky is watching over them. It's a security blanket. If you please that imaginary friend, he rewards you, conveniently after you die when you can't come back and tell everyone that it's all a big scam.

There's no evidence that Jesus was ever crucified, or that Jesus ever actually existed, as described in the Bible, at all.
Oh, they 'invent' them. And pray, how many people did you ever meet, who 'invented' Christianity? Or the belief in God? Not too many, I'd wager. You're also making the argument that everyone drawn to religion is unhappy and/or searching for answers.

Again, regarding Jesus, you cannot prove otherwise. And even given rejection of his existence, crucifixion was historically meted out for crimes that also included religious beliefs. Did any of those victims 'feel good' about it? What of any of the excruciating methods of execution or torture associated with religious persecution? did any of them 'feel good'?
 
And the overwhelming majority will never commit atrocities. Just as atheists are equally capable of atrocity, irrespective of their atheism.

Sure, I'm not disagreeing with you. However, you're now trying to make an entirely different claim, that religion doesn't cause all theists to commit atrocities, which I will agree with. It is not, however, the original claim. Absolutely, without question, religion can and does make some people commit atrocities, something that cannot be said about atheism. There are people who will kill others because they are "infidels". Remove religion entirely from the situation and you no longer have any reason whatsoever to perform the act. There are parents who refuse to provide medical care for their children, entirely because of their religious beliefs. Take away those beliefs and there is no reason whatsoever for them to refuse medical attention. In most of these cases, you cannot get from here to there without religion.

As far as violence is concerned, I will agree that most westernized religions have been tempered by secular society, but throughout history, religion has been a cause of violence, especially when it's allowed to run the roost. When the Catholic Church controlled Europe, religious bloodshed was rampant. Today in the Middle East, where Islam is allowed to impose it's control over the people, violence is commonplace. And seriously, the whole of Christianity is based around the second coming of Jesus and the end of the universe. Most people will be cast into perdition and burn forever in hellfire. If that's not mass death, I don't know what is.

But you missed my point.

Religion needn't be accountable for the inhumanities people inflict upon one another. Regardless of Paralogic's claim that we all want 'violence and mass death'.[/QUOTE]
 
Sure, I'm not disagreeing with you. However, you're now trying to make an entirely different claim, that religion doesn't cause all theists to commit atrocities, which I will agree with. It is not, however, the original claim. Absolutely, without question, religion can and does make some people commit atrocities, something that cannot be said about atheism. There are people who will kill others because they are "infidels". Remove religion entirely from the situation and you no longer have any reason whatsoever to perform the act. There are parents who refuse to provide medical care for their children, entirely because of their religious beliefs. Take away those beliefs and there is no reason whatsoever for them to refuse medical attention. In most of these cases, you cannot get from here to there without religion.

As far as violence is concerned, I will agree that most westernized religions have been tempered by secular society, but throughout history, religion has been a cause of violence, especially when it's allowed to run the roost. When the Catholic Church controlled Europe, religious bloodshed was rampant. Today in the Middle East, where Islam is allowed to impose it's control over the people, violence is commonplace. And seriously, the whole of Christianity is based around the second coming of Jesus and the end of the universe. Most people will be cast into perdition and burn forever in hellfire. If that's not mass death, I don't know what is.
Hey, you'll never see me claim that religion wasn't responsible for some of the worst episodes in human history. The Crusades and the Inquisition for example, were pogroms so far as I'm concerned. There must be any number of atrocities committed in the name of religion, that I'm not even aware of.

Nevertheless, WW2 alone managed to eclipse the death toll of every historical conflict combined, and without recourse to religious fervour of any kind. Add to that the first great war, and a litany of regional conflicts during the interval since. Even foregoing any discussion of war, one need only take a glance at crime stats to realise how paltry is religion, as a motive for wrongdoing.

Remove religion entirely from the situation and you no longer have any reason whatsoever to perform the act.
You and I both know that if one guy wants to kill or persecute another, he'll find a reason. Politics itself is reliant upon such creative duplicity. Unfortunately, religion is remarkably apt to corruption, and serves wonderfully in the capacity of justification for excess. But we should never confuse convenience for objective.

If religion had never existed at all, tyrants would find a way.
 
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Quite right.

No atheist ever committed an atrocity of any kind.

Your sarcasm is pointless.

Atrocities committed without the justification of religion usually, and maybe not often enough, end up being judged by secular morality and social structures of law.

Atrocities committed with the justification of religion, which are at least 2 orders of magnitude more than the previous kind, almost always, are accepted, tolerated and promoted by people of the same religion because they don't acknowledge secular or social morals that apply to everyone. They only acknowledge the rules that will annihilate other groups for the benefit of their own.

That's why all religious people know and always have known that what they are doing is supporting anti-social immoral social behavior.

They always did, from the supporters of volcano gods that were killing supporters of tree spirit gods, to societies that were ripping off living hearts to appease their ruler, and to modern day televangelist scum who have a million ways to feed political hate-mongering to their sheep so they can support massive scale wars and mass death against who they label as undesirables.
 
Hey, you'll never see me claim that religion wasn't responsible for some of the worst episodes in human history. The Crusades and the Inquisition for example, were pogroms so far as I'm concerned. There must be any number of atrocities committed in the name of religion, that I'm not even aware of.

Nevertheless, WW2 alone managed to eclipse the death toll of every historical conflict combined, and without recourse to religious fervour of any kind. Add to that the first great war, and a litany of regional conflicts during the interval since. Even foregoing any discussion of war, one need only take a glance at crime stats to realise how paltry is religion, as a motive for wrongdoing.


You and I both know that if one guy wants to kill or persecute another, he'll find a reason. Politics itself is reliant upon such creative duplicity. Unfortunately, religion is remarkably apt to corruption, and serves wonderfully in the capacity of justification for excess. But we should never confuse convenience for objective.

If religion had never existed at all, tyrants would find a way.

The difference is religious fueled atrocities might be avoided in the future, either because organized religion doesn't exist, or the followers actually adhere to the tenets of their founder. Atheists also wonder, well since all of that is fake anyway, it just renders those atrocities all the more tragic, because it's really over nothing. WWII came about due to real occurrences like unbearable post war inflation. It may be impossible to ever eliminate all impetus for violence, such as human struggle for limited resources, greed, lust for power, but "greeted by 70 virgins" should not be a challenge still.

I see religion as a far greater mechanism of control than the rulers themselves, even so far as to empower those rulers. It crosses geo-political boundaries, existing simultaneously in both republics and dictatorships, depending on the extent to which the masses still cling to it. Do you see women or other minorities treated like they are in Islam nations? Women were able to gain rights here, whereas it's a non-starter in Saudi. Likewise with killing "witches" and homosexuals, well that **** used to happen in the West you agree, then the masses slowly shed their enslavement to religion. It still occurs in much of Africa/mid East, because and only because of religion.

Without religion, tyrants would find a way...sometimes, sometimes not. Or those tyrants wouldn't be in that position to begin with. Would Khamenei be where he's at? What's more disconcerting to me is seeing religious dogma seep into a democratic process, because a majority are in fact taken in head over heels by it, even when the constitution disavows intrusion of church into state! You don't need despotism or official theocracy to be suffocated and persecuted by religion.
 
Hey, I'd settle for a single example of demonstrable good that requires religion.
Show one example of good that requires YOU.
 
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